How to use cylindrical thumb ring ?

Just the question I wanted to ask as well. I had thought the string would lie against the face of the ring as per the rings with a lip (and a groove) but having bought Kays Thumbring Book recently I find her diagrams showing rings such as this with the string not on the face but on the edge, alongside the thumb. This would appear to be an entirely different style of release with the thumb and fingers taking up different positions?

I thought that the string would lie against the circular part of the cylinder against the thumb. How would it work if it rested against the long part?

Where do you get these rings from anyway? I've been looking for one ...

Sorry but that photo is indecipherable - just a black blob - on my screen

I will try next photo

Most rings of this form that were intended for shooting had one end tapered from the inside to the outside and the other with a taper from the outside to the inside. When worn, the outside tapered portion was towards the hand. This was where the string rested.

If you wear the ring close to the base of the thumb as shown in some western illustrations, the string inevitably presses on the tendons running from the hand up the inside of the thumb (these are the ones responsible for closing the thumb). This makes it very uncomfortable with strong bows.

The technique shown in several old photographs and in diagrams republished in Chinese Archery by Stephen Selby has the ring on the centrally on the thumb. This means that the knuckle of the thumb (the distal joint) is inside the ring and only the nail and its base are visible on the outside. So, unlike a middle Eastern ring, the thumb is not hooked through the ring. The thumb is bent so that the two inner surfaces of the thumb press against one side and the knuckle presses against the other. With this grip, you should not be able to pull the ring off your thumb until you straighten the thumb.

The three fingers, middle, ring and small, are tightly clenched like the Middle Eastern styles. However, instead of the tip of the thumb being pressed against the middle section of the middle finger, you press the outside surface of the ring against the middle finger. The forefinger is lightly curled over the thumb nail touching the upper end of the ring. As in Middle Eastern archery, you can hold the arrow in place with the side of the forefinger.

To release the string, you straighten out the forefinger, but you do not straighten the thumb and instead open it from the base knuckle (the proximal joint of the thumb). The follow through results in the drawing hand pointing directly away from the target in a similar manner to the Japanese kyudo stance.

These rings are good for long draws. They come in thick and thin forms. The thin ones give a faster release. The thick ones are easier to learn with.

There are good photographs of this technique by an old Manchu archer elsewhere on the site.

Bede wrote:

If you wear the ring close to the base of the thumb as shown in some western illustrations, the string inevitably presses on the tendons running from the hand up the inside of the thumb (these are the ones responsible for closing the thumb). This makes it very uncomfortable with strong bows.

Thanks for the info Bede. But I have to comment on this part.

I use my Hungarian made thumb ring as a cylindrical ring (it looks like a cylindrical ring with a tiny - 5 mm - lip), and end up placing the string behind the ring touching my thumb. I end up angling my wrist so that there is very little pressure applied to the thumb tendons, but so that I can still lightly feel the string on my proximal thumb section. I'm drawing around 70 lb at 32 inches, and there is no pain.

Mysa, you?re an artist! Incredible job on the arrows in the pics... or is it old originals????

JJ

JJ, if only you could see Mysa's blacksmithing work... :)

JJ wrote:

Mysa, you?re an artist! Incredible job on the arrows in the pics... or is it old originals????

JJ

it is old original. I made this set a month ago. I have new set at pressent. On my actually arrows is geometry turned slight more to nock :lol:

Outstanding arrows as always Mysa. Great art work, and nocks!
Alan

daryush wrote:

Bede wrote:

If you wear the ring close to the base of the thumb as shown in some western illustrations, the string inevitably presses on the tendons running from the hand up the inside of the thumb (these are the ones responsible for closing the thumb). This makes it very uncomfortable with strong bows.

Thanks for the info Bede. But I have to comment on this part.

I use my Hungarian made thumb ring as a cylindrical ring (it looks like a cylindrical ring with a tiny - 5 mm - lip), and end up placing the string behind the ring touching my thumb. I end up angling my wrist so that there is very little pressure applied to the thumb tendons, but so that I can still lightly feel the string on my proximal thumb section. I'm drawing around 70 lb at 32 inches, and there is no pain.

I think the difference is in the lip, no matter if it is tiny. The true cylindrical rings don't have a lip, but rather an edge. Other than lipped rings, that divide the pressure of the string over a large area, cylindrical rings still transfer much of the string's pressure on a single point. If that point is at a tendon, it will hurt. Your lip probably evens out the pressure more at the part that would otherwise push into the flesh.

I practice with antique Manchu rings, so there is no question on the authenticity of their geometry. I began using them because all cylindrical reproduction rings I used hurt. When the antique ring hurt as much as the repro's, I realized the problem was with me and not my equipment.

The technique Bede explains appears to be the correct technique, and the best I've tried to date. It still hurts sometimes when I use heavier bows but that's probably just down to lots of practice and making some minor adjustments.

-Peter

By the way the "twisting" of the draw hand described in some Chinese manuals only really start to make sense when using a ring like this. It locks it up so well that there is no real need for the index finger anymore in holding the string.

Here some more pictures. The string is not very tight as I attached it on two points to the wall in order to make the pictures, instead of pulling a bow, so I had my other hand free.

[external image]
String rests behind the rounded edge of the ring. Index finger can go around, but doesn't need to. (Qing archers used it to keep the feathers of the arrow away from the bow then pulling.)


[external image]
An exaggerated view of the twist one gives the hand, that is described in a few manuals. With drawing real weight, the effect will hardly be visible of course, but I hope this picture gives a clear image of what is meant. The base of the index finger pushes the string against the ring.

[external image]
View from the other side, as often seen on pictures of Qing archers.

See this picture from the ATARN site for comparison:


(I am a left handed archer, the mirror image of most of you.)

-Peter

Thanks all for partial info

- Yes, I know and I have Kay's book, don't have Chinese archery, but looking for cheap one.

- Newer rings hurt, this is bad new for me, unfortunately I have luck to have very big thumb, so there will be no way to use original rinks (they are too small for me)

I just recently send my thumb finger to Korea to get better fit lip based ring :roll:

- What bout this type of rings ?

They looks like one evolutionary step before pure cylindrical ones:

From archive:







Chinese - Early Archers' Rings

PS: Peter, I am a left side archer too :D

5 mm is a very big ledge for a cylindrical ring. The correct angle of the hand is important notwithstanding. Peter and I discussed the problem of fletchings longer than the brace height of the bow and how to draw the arrow without ruffling the feathers. His solution is the easiest to learn, but I am sure we will find ways to refine it. Unfortunately, Manchu fletchings are much longer than Japanese ones otherwise we could use the Japanese technique.

I have found the same problem as Bede and Peter, especially with Manchu arrows that have 30cm long fletchings. It's annoying to draw these arrows messing the feathers and fixing them again with fingers. My solution was to trim the fletchings in a low profile tapering to the end, still leaving the length of the fletchings. The problem was fixed to me. I'll post pictures of these arrows next time.

The ring in your pictures is a copy of the Shang Dynasty ring in the tomb of Fu Hao. This ring was made in 1100 BC. It had no relationship with cylindrical rings. They were not developed until the 16th-17th century.

It is described in my article on Early Archers' Rings, see http://www.atarn.org/chinese/thumbrings ... _rings.htm