Very close (arm) distance training target (Torba, Makiwara)

This is initial try and experience before Torba/Makiwara inspiration:

I want small compact indoor training target I can use regularly in day-to-day practice 6 arrows X 10 repeats for both my 45lb/30 and 60ld/30" bows in room of 1,8m x 2.5m size.

Initial design was simple, I use a computer packaging recyclable waste from servers (you can find similar waste for recycling in many shops for free):

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Cardborad box paper, crumpled stretch very thin packing foil, soft lather foam polyethylene (don't use fragile polyester from while bubbles), under old capret.

Stretch very thin packing foil for final wrapping

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Close range target must solve one issue, distance is not long enough and arrow will still bending in S shape, see:

Physics Of Archery — Archer's Paradox

Archers Paradox - Super slow motion video

S bending have enough power to break arrow, so we need a ideal target with contradicting requirements:

- it must allow to let finish bending (to be soft ???)
- it must absorb arrows energy to stop it ( to be hard ???)

I try solve it by making an assembled dual zone target like this:

1. Entry zone (Front part) was one peace from box cardboard paper

!!! This zone must be REALLY soft or arrows can bounce back and hit you !!!

2. Flexible zone was large cardboard box of 20cm in deep with crumpled packing foil (Important: There must be enough space left when crumling a foil so arrow can a little move inside, when it hit box)

3. Landing zone was large cardboard box of 40cm in deep fully filled with pressed soft lather foam polyethylene material using to hold computers or toher stuff in box during shipment.

4. Stop zone was done was 3x old carpet (only part from my home), you can put there a more hard recycled thick paper used to hold heavy parts in cardboard boxes (opposite to cardboard paper this can be easily bend)

Everything was well packed together by stretch packing foil 5 times around.

As arrow to help minimize S effect I use a cheap harder aluminum arrows +10LB spine and normal points.

Target size was about 140cm x 90cm, each day I shut in different target place, once in 2 weeks I exchange front paper and mix foil in flex zone.

It works in some extend, but if was huge as most god solid targets are.

By time a soft lather foam polyethylene zone 3 get tease and I start looking for something else, instead of redo same again target.

PS: Mirelon is Local Check brand for soft lather foam polyethylene material, its very similar to waste this waste.

So 2 layer target from waste was not ideal solution, I start looking for more proven one and I was able to find on net comments like this one:

BeDe (June/2005)
The training exercises in the Middle East were very similar to the Japanese makiwara practice where you shot into a close soft target with unfletched arrows from a weak bow until you had achieved perfect form and arrow flight. According to Murat the Turks also shot heavy bows in the same way. This allows you to practise without worrying about the target and aiming. You build the foundation of shooting without distraction.

I follow them and I was really surprised how compact Turkish target is !

I start to dig more info about them and experiment with their possible constructions.

Turkish Torba

When Murat was in Vsetice he spoke about this Turkish Torba training target:

Torba is close range training target build as long wooded box filled with fleece or cotton wool. Stand will allow to regulate a hight and angel.
Practitioners shut from very shot distance with unfleched arrows and they try to make arrow in target strait to Torba longer line.

They push inside various materials, most common for most stronger bows they use a mix of cotton wool and wooden sawdust, box is really simple wooden one.

Note: From my experience one of material really need to be a stand based and it need to be in lint from (as irregular in thickness and length) to torba work properly.
I will explain it later when I will be comparing Troba solution with Makiwara one.

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Indoor flight shooting practice. ("Okspor" archery clube, 1939)

Qualifications and Training of the Turkish Archers

Torba mean in many Slovanian languages mean bag like part of originally army dressing.

Japanese (kyudo) Makiwara

Makiwara kyudo - A close range target, form as tightly bound drum of straw.

From book Kyudo: the essence and practice of Japanese archery (By Hideharu Onuma, Jackie DeProspero):

When space is at a premium, kuydo is practiced at a makiwara

Makiwara is produced in 4 sizes: Extra small, small, medium, large

Usage:

Makiwara is really old time proven technique , see translation of Japanese text from 1634 Makiwara Madenss

For short distance shooting at one bow-length away, a makiwara is used as a target. A makiwara is a straw practice target that is shot at from a bow's length away.

The makiwara is shot at from a very close range (about seven feet, or the length of the archer's strung yumi when held horizontally from the centerline of his body).

Kyudo beginners start to shoot to makiwara (Makiwara-mae) before moving to 28 meters shooting 28 (Mato-mae). Makiwara however, is not only used by beginners but also by expert kyudoka, both as warm-up at the start of kyudo training session and to study certain aspects of their shooting without the “distraction” of the target.

Traditionally, it is a drum of straw on a stand. It’s made of rice straw cut and bound together. It is common here to use straw or hay bales wrapped in a white sheet to make handling and transport a little neater.

In this type of shooting it’s used an arrow that differs from the one used in the 28 meters shooting for two characteristics:

- It has very small or no wings. These are not necessary due to the short distance covered by the arrow to reach the makiwara

- It has a different kind of tip. This tip, ogive shaped, is designed to minimize the impact of the arrow on the straw and then allow a longer life to makiwara.

Because the target is so close and the shot most certainly will hit, the archer can concentrate on refining his technique rather than on the arrow's arc.

In the year preceding his examination for Hanshi (Master's Certification) Onuma sensei practiced almost entirely at the makiwara; saying that it helped him concentrate on the most crucial element of successful shooting - himself.

It is important to note that makiwara practice is not, in any way, inferior to full-distance practice.

Many of the world's kyudojo are used exclusively as makiwara dojo.

For makiwara are used special arrows Ya, they have different smaller fetching and points are simple round shape similar, original pint was from horn to less damage makiwara, see pictires bellow.

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Note: Based on links cited near pictures (yumi is Japanse Kuydo bow).

Some makiwara photos:

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Source Kyudo Equipment

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Source makiwara

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Source: Kyudo: Way Of The Bow - Part 2

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Source: Kyūdō

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Real office use :roll:

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Nylon makiwara :wink:

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Makiwara with aditional protection

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Nomarly Makiwara is strait, but is also a variants under angle

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A wooden barrel stuffed with straw is used as a makiwara as seen in this historic woodblock print from the 1870s. (Courtesy of Christopher Caile)

Source: Kyudo: Way Of The Bow

Makiwara is often displayed with yumi (bow) and ya (arrows)

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Source: The Tools and Practice of Kyudo

Turkish training for flight shooting
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http://www.turkisharchery.info/graphx/o ... aining.jpg

Yes, Jose, this is Torba.

Sorry for massive back editing, my wife just get sick (flu) and I need to take care about my 2 little kids, my son is only 4 week , so my time availability is really fragmented, please be patient.

I already have in Check process how to build Torba like target including experience how to use it, so once I will finish intro part it will be fast.

Rudolf,

These posts have been a great review of what kind of targets the old archers had used for short-distance training. You also stimulated a brain storm for finding the ult?mate indoor target set-up. Thank you.

As you mentioned, a "torba" is a bag filled in with cotton seed and sawdust. Old treatises mention that the so-called torba gezi (torba arrow), an arrow with an iron tip and no fletching, was used to shoot that type of target. The bag was put on a "tray" (lit."sehpa", a wooden frame) having a 45 degree angulation, has either a monopod or was fixed onto the wall, as shown in the pic you've sent.

Since I started teaching the authentic shooting technique I have been contemplating about the rationale of the training and its stages. At the very beginning my goal was to revive the old methodology, but I've noticed that many details are not easily applicable in practice. So, I replaced some of them with modern materials and torba training is an example.

One of the problems was the incompetibility of the arrow and target material (as you mentioned). In the past Turkish arrows were made of pine by using carefully selected trees and by seasoning and handling the raw shafts. The suitable shafts were so rare (despite the enormous number of pine trees in this geography) that sultans sometimes ordered people to sell the raw material to the arrowmakers (who were organised under a guild) only, not to other traders. Although raw material was selected and handled with great care for making arrows that would stand the strike of strong bows, torba arrow was made of hornbeam, a stronger and heavier wood. Therefore I switched to aluminum arrows for beginners since they're tougher than any kind of wooden shaft (same rationale, different material), especially because no real "torba" targets were in use and our target butt is elastomer sheets pressed together. This target is not too friendly to wooden arrows when shot from closer distances. So, switching to aluminums was surely a choice of wisdom.

The rationale of torba training is probably not the lack of space, but mastering the form and the thumb release. Mastering the form as well as tuning the muscles must be the goal of the initial stage of training: pulling kepaze bows. Torba practice should have another, additional purpose, which I thought is mastering the thumb release and bow hand control.

We have never reconstructed and used a torba and my knowlegde is limited with what I've read about it. Still, I doubt if the torba is the set up that would fullfill your requirements. For practising indoors I have used home-made targets of elastomers, polyethylene, cardboard but I've never shot that close (less than 3 m). Among them, only cardbaord seems to compensate the arrow's bending within the target butt, but all of these are loud anyway. Japanese makiwara could be the best among all the possible set-ups, as far as I can guess.

I have found that an arrow friendly target for this type of practice is a cardboard box full of old clothes, rags, etc. It needs to be stuffed and tight to avoid pass through. It works fine, it's cheap and won't break arrows at close distance.

Yes, cardboard box full of old clothes, rags can work, but results can be very unpredictable.

I try to use a similar target before I made a compound zoned target from computer packaging waste, first was OK , next was like water all arrows goes thou, next was breaking arrows.

This was reason why I start build a compound layered targets from computer packaging waste.

Such waste can be easily get for free, it's same across whole world, it is 100% recyclable, so large building with many companies have central place where they store them before waste recycle company get them, so for to get enough such material you need to find such recycling place.

I back edit original post and add there photos for better understanding.

For Murat,
I have inspected some torba gezi and they are not made from the high grade pine that other arrows were constructed from. Even the the hava gezi were pine, but the torba gezi were elm. The ones I saw were barrelled and had very thin points.

Modern foam based targets work well, but they are expensive and are not usable at close range for bows over 50 pounds. However they do protect the arrows. With thirty pound practice bows, they are successful and you can see by the angle of the arrow in the target what kind of error you are making.

Layers of cardboard, particularly packing for computers, is also successful. softer cardboard is not much use.

Bullet shaped points will preserve the target longest. Some of the Japanese makiwara arrows had horn tips made like this. At very short range, fletching is not necessary.

Bede,

It's true that torba gezi is barelled, as found out by Yucel, although the old texts recommends "kirish endam": thicker at the fletching end and thinner at the tip. Yucel gave the wood type that the torba gezi was made of as "gurgen", Carpinus Betulus, or hornbeam as given in English dictionaries (http://www.sozluk.web.tr/index.php?loca ... %C3%BCrgen). Elm Ulmus) is "karaagac" in Turkish (http://www.sozluk.web.tr/index.php?loca ... %9Fa%C3%A7). Different types of hard wood might have been used for making torba gezi. Yucel examined and evaluated 10 samples and all of them were made of hornbeam (if the wood was identified correctly by him). In Kani's treatise, pine was also mentioned (with well-choosen grain) as a material for torba, but Yucel says that there is no sample in Topkapi Palace. Museum's collection.

Murat,
I was basing my comments on Kani and the arrows I saw in the Grayson Collection. Your comment about the arrows being thicker towards the nock is more accurate than what I said. Barrelled is too general a term. I understood kiriş endam meant cord form in English. That is to say, parallel-sided as in a hava gezi arrow.

In Hein's translation and discussion of Kani, he translates G?rgen as Elm. Modern Turkish usage as shown in H. C. Hony's A Turkish English Dictionary, translates it as hornbeam, but it notes the name can also be used for beech. Hein says that timber merchants sold it under the name samanly ("Die Holzh?ndler verkaufen sie unter dem namen samanly." Samanly is the modern Samanlı, which I assume comes from straw (saman) and refers to the colour.

I am afraid I don't know enough about Northern Hemisphere wood to contribute much more than questions. Hein was not wood expert either, but he was an excellent translator and was probably closer to the Ottoman meaning of the word than we are. I think that it is most likely that torba gezi had to be tough and that all the woods mentioned were suitable.

Before I will show how I make a torba like target, I want to stop fist and compare Torba and Makiwara constructions:

Makiwara is best of Solid material target, it solve most technical issue with arrow hitting target from close range:

It has good entry zone, straw are aligned with coming arrow, helping arrow to enter.

I has good affect to allow arrow bend inside by compressing the straw.

It has good ability to stop arrow be per-compressed straw.

As all Solid material targets Makiwara is not fully protected from arrow destructions and by time its need to be or reconstructed or fully rebuild.
Yes, reconstruction or rebuild of Makiwara was fast and cheap , it original uses Local waste material.

I our group we already have experience with some principles of which is Makiwara build:

- We have experience with targets, which have parallel to arrow entry zones, so solid target material is not so much destructed. We use a relatively thins foam polyethylene isolation ( From Mirelon is Local Check brand for soft lather foam polyethylene material) to make rolled a tighten more resistant targets:

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- We have experience with straw based targets, many of our local actions are done on Horse ranges, so we use a machinery pressed straw targets for example for rowing:

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Some archers, try to use such straw for short range 5 m in garden shutting, they report then such target don't break only when it kept wet, which is not an option for in house use.

I thing to make a Makiwara target from reed waste, which I can get for free, but after I count size of target, I found then I will be very heavy and I must be so large then I will have no place for shutting.

So by size a Torba will be my favorite for a inspiration.

So why can be Torba much smaller then Makiwara ?

Answer is simple = Because Torba is a Soft target !

Yes, even very soft material can electively stop arrows, to understand I will show you fist, how best soft targets in world word are constructed - I will present you a Bullet recovery system used by Criminologist:

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More will follow, I must take care now about my son :-)

Bede,

Terminology is a common problem when the old texts are "translated". Very recently I read a book of an English hunter who hunted in the western part of Turkey in mid 1850s. He noticed that even the natives use an inproper terminology in animal names, i.e they call ibex as "deer" (geyik), actually as a general term for all big game with horn.

I noticed a similar complication in wood names. Beech was called as "kayın" in old texts, which is not true today (should be "huş"). Kayın, in today's terminology" is "fagus sylvatica". Even Yucel mentiones "kayın" as the wood type used by Turks for making arrows until 14th century (probably the old terminology). In Chingis Khan Exibition in Istanbul I've seen Mongolian arrows made of beech, which was probably the same wood used by Turks. There is quite a lot of info about the political and military interactions of Seldjuks with Mongols in 11th-13th centuries. It's known that mixed armies of Seldjuk and Mongols fought against Turcoman rioters to supress the rebellions. It makes sense that they've used similar weaponary, if not the same.

Another example of complicated terminology is the name of the fish that the glue for bowmaking was harvested from. "Mersin morinası", as mentioned by Kani, may be either Acipencer guldenstaedtii or Huso huso, two different fish species. Interestingly they both would provide palate mucosa and air bladder to make glue from (like many other fish species). Ths particular example can be considered as "too academic" and one may believe that there is not too much difference between two. However, in some other cases that kind of details may make great difference.

If "g?rgen" is the identification of Yucel, I'd consider it more accurate. But if its a referral to the old texts than it would be arguable. Unfortunately, it's not mentioned at all.

Murat,
Thanks for the explanation. The way that "g?rgen" is translated in Hein suggests that he was translating directly using dictionaries of the time. Unfortunately I haven't got an original copy of Kani though I know someone with a facsimile. I will ask them to look it up for us.

Your point about the Mongols and the Seljuks makes sense particularly in the reference to beech.

Orange

I am curious what you will find to be the best target for a small room, please keep experimenting!

For shooting from a close distance of no more than 2m, I now use a smallish feed bag stuffed with crumpled plastic placed in front of a heavy piece of conveyor belt (rubber/canvas, 1/2+in thick). The bag alone does not stop the arrows, but is soft enough to let the arrows flex while holding them in place, while the belt stops all arrows without problems. Target points of arrows shot from bows close to 150lb may go about 1/3 of the way in, that's it. The main problem is the bag itself, since the woven material (can be synthetic or burlap) goes to shreds in no time and have to be replaced. If someone knows a better material for the bags, plese let me know.

I also used a bucket stuffed with plastic covered at the front with some burlap, plus the conveyor belt, as a little tidier arrangement.

A few years ago, I had a large block of plasticine for the target. It worked very well, but it made arrows so dirty I abandoned the idea.

For an outdoor target nothing beats a pile of sand.

Adam

Well, from my experience a wood names is not only issue here, also a wood quality, because wood structure is different as is different place where it grow.

This summer I spend vacation with my family in Czech hills on old sawmill there 2 centuries ago was produced a acoustic resonance wood from spruce.

While normal spruce is relatively fragile and non homogeneous, acoustic resonance wood from is spruce very constant in structure. There was museum of such wood and examples under a simple microscope and differences in wood structure was amazing. Such difference is just because same type of tree for acoustic resonance wood grow very slowly on place with less water and sun shine for 170 years :roll:

I am afraid then what ever wood is was used for arrows in past, type of grow was similar to one used in acoustic resonance wood, which is very rare today.

Adam,

From solid based targets some of us use a large very strong sack used for to store a food (potatoes,onion) in 50kg max quantity for wintertime, they are looks as synthetics asymmetric nets in various density, look for pictures:

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its necessary to pick up right sack density so arrow will move/diver net structure, not destroy it.

As fill in best is to use a cutoffs waste from production of synthetic curtains/veiling, they can be get from curtains making companies from $10 for big sack.

But as all solid targets, they are don't have end less life time.

Beside soft target principle I will finish description soon, they are nice solid targets based on BALLS principle, they can be probably used for bows with more then 80LB poundage which will have necessary high energy target entrance energy.

Small Balls targets principle like bullet recovery systems are based on hard rubber balls which emulate full-bodied liquid like behavior by usage of solid materials:

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Remember, I was repairing old paintball guns :arrow:

Be inspired by such target idea is to get a large enough U shape small balls holder, fill it with modern plastic 6mm Airsoft ammo/bullets (best will be ones wrapped with silicone),
on them put net and as needed pressure generator put there right amount of metal balls used to make bearings.

By adding right amount of metal bearings balls target can adjust for stronger bows :lol:

Of course, we can seek for cheaper stuff then metal bearings balls, top covering material must be relatively heavy and loose/powdery easily movable. For example cheaper aquarium small decorative slick crusted stones can be used instead.

Another option can be to use just enough glass balls directly as fill-inGlass balls

Only we need to experiment how to make an arrow entry zone of such target to keep balls inside and to carefully catch arrows it before balls start move so it will not bounce back.

PS: Of course not sharp points must be used for such target !

Before we will dive to more experiments with Torba like soft target, I must give you small warning about close range archery shutting:

Waring, from short distance arrows can bounce back to you and make a injury. Take care to protect your eyes

While shutting eyes are not in front to target, so you need to take a protection Goggles/Eyewear/Glasses with side protection too like on picture with protection level at least of class F (European) - resistant from low power mechanical forces.

I use cheap certified one peace ones as this:

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Our Hard Coating can meet up to ASTM 659 / EN 168 N Mark / EN 166 K Mark.
Scratch resistance and good impact resistance, resistance to U.S. military specifications for steel ball impact test about 650 ft / sec.

Feature brow and solid side shields for splash protection.

Preventing arrows to bounce directly to you:

It's not 100% possible to prevent then arrow will not bounce back. Any target need to have stand from relatively solid material and so on.

But we can prevent then arrow will bounce to you with high probability and in full power.

When arrow bounce back and is not eaten by target, it bend first - arrow make a letter C, which will consume some energy, after is straighten and in vibrate in S shapes and jump back.

1. Don't have on target and stand surface which are directly to you in 90 degrees angel - if we look on Torba usage pictures target and stand are under angels. While we assuming then it's because they train flight, safety can be also a reason. Arrow will be force by angle to bounce out from an archer. (Also some old Makiwara pictures use angel too)

2. Both Torba and Makiwara use a (bi)conical arrows, where center of mass is moved from bend center of arrow (more mass is on end)

Together with smaller points this help (bi)conical arrow to better penetrate target and also if bounce bounce more heavy nock part and will open end of letter C, making more open angel when bending back. So I am putting some duck tape on my not conical aluminum arrows to have similar affect.

3. By adjusting distance you can help arrow to enter target in optimal part of S movement, which help better target penetration. Each arrows are different and this need a little experimenting to find right distance. For example for my 45lb/30" bow with stronger 50lb arrows used for torba like soft target right distance is ~ 1,5 arrow length.

I realise that there are two discussions going on this thread but I would like to comment on arrow materials. It is not surprising that there is confusion about the common names of Turkish trees. This is a common phenomen which was the reason for Latinizing species names. The problem was a world wide problem.

Beech includes all the oaks and may involve hundreds of varieties so in itself is not very descriptive.

I have examined Turkic war arrows in many museums and what stood out was that the wood was identifiable and with common grain pattern. I said to myself, "I could make those arrows." Considering the millions of arrows used in antiquity for war purposes, it seems highly unlikely that resonance quality wood was a necessity. That SOME arrows were made of this material does not seem unreasonable.

Wood is not becoming inferior. Some wood is being grown for construction purposes which is definitely inferior to wild material but otherwise, wood is ok. Many rare types are threatened, I will acknowledge. Jack

You can make a torba out of cardboard by stacking layers of it made from 40-50 cm wide pieces. Once you have it built to the height and width you want, you can wrap packing tape around the layers to hold them firmly together. You need strong cardboard of the type large appliances or PCs are shipped in. The layers have to be compressed together to make a strong target. Mostly this type of material is thrown out so you are able to get it for free.