New Ottoman Puta bow

bow circle

Wow!

How thick is the sinew at the middle at the sal, compared to the sides?

13mm - how many pounds do you think it will draw when it is finished?

Congratulations! Great looking bow!

How is it possible that the sinew layer has that amount of transparency? I can see every groove you made on the wood... Is it simply less sinew?? Is it the glue you used?

Best regards, JJ

Thanks,

Kviljo:

Snew is 2,2 mm thick at the middle, 6 mm at the sides. Horn 5,5 mm, wood 5,3 mm , total 11mm at middle of sal( wood and horn convex and concave).I think it will be 100-110 lb when it is finished. Core is Acer Tataricum, grip is maple- cornus mas laminate.

JJ:

The groove you see is 1,3mm thick. Transparency is not caused of less snew. Pic DSC04868 show just finished first layer of snew. After each snew layer I give pressure to the snew with round wood. This reduces air bubbles and makes the snew even.


Cem

Hi Scem! I like your work. I wish you success!!

Looks good , Scem ! How long you wait ?Maybe about 1,5-2 years waiting time we can compare our bows in flyght or puta archery meeting. :D

Brilliant stuff! :)
I guess the extra sinew at the sides make the bow much more tollerant of twisting during stringing/etc.? Perhaps more stable during shooting too?

When I was looking at the pictures now, I was kind of astonished that it looks like you didn't start out with very much reflex at all - and then the full circle after sinewing. Is it about correct to say that the core before sinewing was no more reflexed than the tips pointing 90 degrees in relation to the handle? Did all the other reflex come from the sinew? - and if it is all due to the sinew drying and curing; how long did it take for it to develop the full circle?

Sorry for asking all the questions - I'm all too exited about these bows these days... 8)

This is impressive! I guess I'd have to take tranquilizers before attempting to string. Imagine bending a 100# bow over the tepelik. Wow. I recall the struggle when I did it for the first time and the bow initially had only 70#.

I'd also like to ask questions. How much of the reflex remains after the bow is shot in? Do you reduce the reflex in the kasan eye by heat before stringing the first time?

Kviljo:

This picture is for you. Pic. show before backing.Turkish bow is reflexed after each layer of backing. After hard gelled the snew-glue bow reflexed about 20cm and end of the backing bow should be bow circle, this is original methot. I use 3 layer, each layer takes min 2 hour and it dry in 1-2 day. So bow looks a circle after 3 week.
İf you use gelled snew bundle( Korean methot) bow should be circle at the begining.
Extra snew at the sides protect the bow from cracking couse of Poisson effect.

Pazuzu:

Thanks a lot. Can you find lot of Tatarian maple? İf so you are so lucky.
My grandmother's father migrated from Bulgaria:)

Dusan :

My bows wait a year for drying period but this bow will wait 2 year.

Daniel T. :

I use tillering stick ,after stringing the bow by Tepelik. Kasan eye looks like almost straight in full draw but it is need a little angle when strung. I only heat the bow when I use the tillering stick, specially for kasan eye. Kasan eye angle is very important for type of the bow.

Scem,

I meant photo DSC04875.JPG, on this one the sinew is dry, but in the middle of the sal absolutely clear and highly transparent... I learn the sinew there is only 2,2 mm thick. Very fine workmanship!

Best regards, JJ

Ahh, what can I say :) Thank you! My learning curve just became steeper. (or more reflexed? hehe) This will definitely be be information added to my next bow.

Again, truly impressive work!

Cem,
It really looks good. Congratulations.

That is a beautiful bow, impressive craftmanship

Thank you Bede and cingold.

Another 72lb Puta bow in full draw. He is my friend G?kmen .

Cem

Thats it Cem ! Beatiful poc.

As the others sad, very impressive and fine work! Beautyfull bows ! Arrow is looking perfect too.
Did U mesure arrow speed ?
Zolt

Fusizoli:

I do not measure the arrow speed. My friend G?kmen shoot 290-325mt with his wooden and carbon 22-25 gr arrow. 120 lb is not heavy for him.
This is 100+lb bow
Cem

That?s a very good record. Better than the current world record made by Jaap. But take in consideration he made around 300 meters with natural string and 40 pounds hornbow.

i wonder how its possible for Jaap to accomplish such a feat with a 40lb turkish bow?!

I was there and shot against him. The bow was definitely only 40 pound and, though he used a siper, he did not get much advantage from it. He was using a Flemish twist linen string and arrows were somewhat heavier than he wished.

I have been experimenting with silk strings and I hope we can use them next time. I think with an improved siper, lighter string and thinner arrows, Jaap will shoot farther. We are looking at advanced training methods for siper use. Recent research on siper design I did at the Grayson Collection this year suggested to me that I had made some errors in construction of the sipers I had built. Tiny differences in the angles of the parts to each other can make a big difference in the way you hold the bow and how smoothly you can draw and release.

Adam has pointed out in the past that many early long distance records were made by Turkish archers before the perfection of the siper. In theory, if the bowyers keep improving their bows, we might get to the point where we can equal or surpass the old masters. People like Cem and Adam and the many other fine bow makers are working hard to make better bows. Once our bows are at the same standard as the old ones, it is only ourselves that need to be improved.

But other than the siper, how could he still outshoot the 100# flight bow?

Well, I do agree it's amazing that two bows with a big draw weight difference could obtain similar performance. But there are some points to consider that can explain it, other than esoteric reasons:

1) Bows: Cem's bow is a target bow, Jaap's was specially designed for flight shooting (shorter sal bending closer to the grip and longer kasan to compensate) and more differences that I can't tell. Figure that Jaap has been working on flight bows for a long time. I'm not saying that Cem's bows are bad but maybe we're comparing different things for different purpose
2) Arrows: Gokmen's arrows are 340 grains to 385 grains. Jaap's arrows are 200 grains or lighter and specially made for flight shooting. Arrows make a big difference in flight shooting
3) The siper he used allowed arrows slightly shorter than his draw length. On this point, I don't think that made a big difference.
4) It's a well known fact that a bow that you can control easily will shoot farther than a stronger bow that controls you, not the opposite. After saying this, I think Gokmen is a strong archer well able to shoot heavier than 100 pounds.
5) last but not least, Technique makes a big difference on flight shooting.

Also, the string is an important factor but using a silk string doesn't help too much. I don't think any natural string is better than dacron.

Ok, just something to think about.

Agree that is a big different a real flight set and the others.

This bow is not for flight but it could show how dinamic is. For that weight of bow ~23g arrow weight for flight is ok. A lighter arrow could demage the bow. 350 could possible if work more on arrows and reduce string weight. May there is 2 inch more draw missed on that pic ;)

And war arrows? With this weight it is possible.

With syper and middle long 23-25long and lighter arrow it could be much faster and shoot bigger shure. (thats more risky and hard technically tough)

With my little 37# sinewed lochust flight bow, a month ago shoot 270m in awfull weather with 220gn 23 arrow. Flight is another story...

I'm really interested, how far could shoot with the best today made turkish flight bows?
Grozer made here with modern materials and string a turkish 100+#and my friend shoot 465m on race (with an overdraw and 14 long little arrow) but I saw over 500m shoots on test.
Is it possible with a horn bow today?

Ok, Cem and me we both thought the 100 lbs might shoot an arrow further than it did. Later we thought about possible reasons. I copy paste what I wrote before in an email:

Last week on the 17th Aug. I met with Cem D?nmez in İzmir.
I brought with me the siper Yıldırım abi made for me, a mushamma and
also 5 pishrev flight arrows I made myself. They weigh around 12 gram
and their length is about 62-65 cm. I also brought two different
carbon arrows.
Cem stringed 2 puta bows for me at least a week before I arrived.
Unfortunately we didnt have a device to measure the actual draw
weight. I have had a 92 lbs Grozer bow, and I can draw two 60 lbs
Grozer bows together (120 lbs), so according to my estimates the
heavier bow should be around 100lbs, the lighter bow must be 70-75
lbs.
We had difficulties finding a good place to shoot, it was very hot and
windy as well. We measured the place and set marks every 50m. The wind came from directly behind us.
I started shooting with the lighter bow, I used the siper with the
flight arrows and overdrew about 2-4 cm behind the kabza. The results
are very interesting:
4 flight arrows flew about 200m, the longer flight arrow 225m, a
carbon arrow (a) 260m, another carbon arrow (b) 230m

Later I shot with the heavier bow however without siper, btw I couldnt
apply the mushamma as the grips were pretty big already and my grip
wasnt right and tight enough to pull the bow with the cengi bazi grip.
With the ?longer? flight arrow I achieved 240, then 260m, with the (a)
carbon arrow 275, 309 and 326m, with the (b) carbon arrow, 275, 275
and 305m.

A few thoughts:
-The flight arrows were about 62, 63cm, add 4cm for the overdraw and
you get 67 cm drawlenght. The carbon arrows went farther because I
could draw them 28 inch (72 cm) even though they were heavier. That
leads to the question; in the old flight bows, was the stacking and
the wall and the final draw length at about 67 cm? (e.g. 160 lbs at
67cm draw length)
-I also have to work on the siper e.g. the arrow lies too high.
-The feathers of the arrows could have been better too, I didnt take
off the 'skin'. One made a fishtail movement.
-The other thing is these werent flightbows and were without timar,
Cem left them strung for over a week before I came.
-There was also strong winds from our back, could it destabilize the arrow?
-There was a lot of stones and slowly my functional flight arrows
decreased in number. They were strong enough to withhold the shots but
broke at the front end when they hit a stone. I chose cedar shafts
with highest spines I could get in a bowshop.
-If I remember right Cem said the bows soaked up moisture as well. The
heavy bow weight way over 400g
-The heat might not have been good for the bow either. We were pretty much exposed to the August sun
-I held the bow at full draw for a few seconds getting instructions from Cem for how much more to pull and how much to elevate the bow. That stole of course from the performance. In order to do the jerking I either need enough experience to know where to stop in case the bow has no wall/stacking, or the bow has to have proper stacking as Turkish flight bows do.

It was such a good feeling being there and shooting Cem?s bows.
Thanks a million to Cem.
It was agreat experience for both of us.

Gokmen

Thanks for sharing the result of your test. I'm going to do my own tests with my bow, but the problem is finding the space. Hopefully in 1/2 months I'll have the chance to do it.

Brilliant stuff Gokmen. In flightshooting arrows and good flight are the most important issues. It is usually said that if you can see the arrow after it has left the bow, it is not a good shot. Fishtailing really steals meters.

I think this makes the old records even more impressive. I've been using wooden flight bows up untill now, and have been under the impression that horn bows would easily take the distances to the next step. It's good to see that we might have a bigger challenge ahead of us than one perhaps have thought before.

Keep up the good work! I am sure the distances will double in no-time!

fusizoli wrote:

Grozer made here with modern materials and string a turkish 100+#and my friend shoot 465m on race (with an overdraw and 14 long little arrow) but I saw over 500m shoots on test.
Is it possible with a horn bow today?

it was a special bow Grozer made it for flight ? or a regular Grozer bow ? 100+# , do you mean 100 lbs ? 14 long little arrow ... is 14 cm ?

Mi friend have 80 lb TRH turkish bow and shoot vith him komercial wood target arrov 350m... I shoot vith Grozer Assirian 65 lb , same arrov in 280m. Somwhere in 100 lb hornbows or arrovs (or in archer shooting stile ) is wrong if shoot only about 300 m. :shock:

Dusan wrote:

Mi friend have 80 lb TRH turkish bow and shoot vith him komercial wood target arrov 350m... I shoot vith Grozer Assirian 65 lb , same arrov in 280m. Somwhere in 100 lb hornbows or arrovs (or in archer shooting stile ) is wrong if shoot only about 300 m. :shock:

I agree. 100lb and 300m is not good.
But there is three things in it, archer, bow and the arrow.
A shooting machine would give better comparison. If I do shot 350 meter with my catalog arrow I would need 350fps. That would be for a 80 lb bow with a 400 grains arrow more or less impossible. It is about 110 ftlb and to get that you should need a bow that stores 140 % energy. 280 with 65 is realistic, but damn good. Or use lighter arrows. The archer can get the best out of the gear but never over 100% :)

:lol: Yes, we measure distance by foot step :D , its no very clear... (+- 10-15 m..?) :oops:

Dusan wrote:

:lol: Yes, we measure distance by foot step :D , its no very clear... (+- 10-15 m..?) :oops:

Close enough.

I still need to test my hornbow at flight shooting but this is the result of last time I tried, sorry it's modern equipment but the comparison is interesting:

Bow: Bear Kodiak Magnum recurve 52" long (65#@28")
String: 14 strand flemish B50 dacron
Arrow: thin carbon 27 inches long total weight 360 grains
Shooting style: Mediterranean with tab

Max. distance: 276 meters

Same equipment with bigger and heavier hunting arrows (600 grains) will reach around 200 meters with wind help.

My guess is a lighter arrow with fast flight string will reach 350 meters maybe.

I can't wait to do some flight shooting with traditional equipment.

Grozer turkish bow was speciall for flight but just in materials. Arround 120 at 31 bacause that my limit in weight now with two finger draw. 14 inch arrow with a strange technic like korean do but not draw with ring. Monus is the archer and he makes the arrows too and Csaba make him speciall test bows.
The record with long arrow is 412m here with laminate Magyar form bow(not Grozer).
With war arrow (flight) min weight 50 g and min diam. 10mm near 300m on race with the same G turkish.

I have a 67#/ 28 TRH Mogul from him and stuck between 320-340 with my best 31-32 long flight arrows. The bow 90+# at 31 and 98 at 33. At 30.5 draw with 422gn easton 230 fps. so 250+ is possible with.

That TRH turkish is a good bow but not faster than my at the same weight.
He haven't made stronger Mogul than my one as I know. May it is the technological limit of this type. But I think it is one of his best bows.

Dusan that not possible with that bow if use that kind of arrow shure.

As Kviljo i ve put a lot of work in wooden bows especially flight bows and flight arrows, and next year start to make hornbows too. But Im just a beginner to making bows....not like Kviljo and I m just a freetime bowyer.
But I will have some help here in horn bows :)

Kviljo don't think it will be a fast step ;) This is the highest level of bow making and needs a lot of expiriance and innovation.

Here Paku teach us and I learn all from u guys too.

Gokmen I think for that lenght those arrows was too light. Hot and back wind is the best for flight. Sometime it gives +30m or more. Best flight arrows are hard to make and select and if got one put in the tresure box and newer use it a place full of stones ;)
cheers

hai cem, can you make a presentation about youself? from your hornbow we can sure you are not a bowyer of beginer, how many year skill and where you study it , form a old turkish bowyer or some book and yourself practise,thanks

Hello,

I was interested in Ottoman Bows when I was a teenager. I used to make self bows, but since 2003-2004 I am making horn bows. This is my hobby. I read books, Turkish old texts about bow making, but my teacher is Adam. Old Turkish texts are not enough for learning bow making. In Turkey there is not a bowyer. Since the begining of the century the Ottman bow was not made. One bow is made 1-2 years. I use original methods.

Best Regards,
Cem

say greet adam and cem, Best Regards

Dear All,

I finished this bow, it is 103,5 cm ntn( not 108cm). It is covered with bark.Welcome comments.

Another,

Another,

Another,

Congratulations Cem, very fine work!

Peter

Congrats Cem, very nice and serious job, that?s the way to do it.
Ha, this selfmade grooving tools are looking different, but they all are doing the same job.
Have you done some chronos? I would like every bowyer posting here should add a speed- test for comparison. Speed matters!
Michael

Gosh, the round belly makes the bow look so much better! Impressive stuff! How did you shape the concave horn?

same question: how to make the horn belly convex like this ? it the wood - horn plane join flat or rounded ?

excellent work and amazing bow,how does it preform?

Great bows! Or is it the same bow without and with decoration?

The shape in full draw comes really close to the depictions in old miniature painting.

Thanks Friends,

Draw-force:

25cm-19lb
30cm-28lb
35cm-35lb
40cm-44lb
45cm-58lb
50cm-65lb
55cm-77lb
60cm-114lb

It is the same bow without and withdecoration.

Making and gluing concave and convex matched horn-wood is harder than flat ones. I used thick horn or natural shape of horn. İn addition I heat the horn when gluing horn to wood.

another,

cool draw weight Cem! I wish you looong distance :D

very very fine sinew layer! did you know when sinew add to the bow, how much draw weight will add ?or you can know if your bow is 100 pound, sinew x pound?wood x pound? horn x pound? i use deg sinew and bladder glue for the max weight same as bamboo(same thickness),that spend my ten years.......

Cem, come on, tell us and admit, these are pictures from the museum :)
I congratulate you my friend and brother.
Is the bow stacking in the last centimeters? Because it is a big jump in drawweight for the last part.
What is the physical weight of the bow?

Thank you

Gokmen

Very nice scrapers, Cem! Are the teeth filed? And Hardened?

JJ

Jiao,
I could not understand exactly what you mean. Maybe it helps:
Total snew 70 gr( 3 layer), total glue dry 65gr, wood +horn=260 gr, thinnest place of sal wood =5,8mm, horn =5,2mm( 1,3mm concave) and snew=2,5mm. Only snew, wood or horn amount are not enough, total bow lenght( grip, bending and unbending sections raio etc) are so important. I do not know the formula:)

G?kmen ,
Thanks a lot brother. Yes the bow is very stacking in last centimeters. İt is because of form. physical weight of the bow is 370 gr.

JJ,
The teeth are nor filed or hardened. İt is laser cut.


Cem

cem
thanks,my mean is if your bow is 120lb , i'm suppose the draw weight of sinew/wood/horn=120/3=40ib (i am not know the maple core 5.8mm at that size the draw weight will be 40IB?),then the one horn draw weight=40/2=20ib wood=20ib sinew=20ib=6.6ib each layer(0.83MM thickness ,23.33 g sinew), i am not care how many sinews weight 70 gr maybe one or two caw deg sinew enough , and maybe one big bladder(the huge one bladder is 500 g) and 2-3 middling bladders 8-12 small bladders weight about 65gr,

Jiao,

Spesific gravity ,strain ,MOE of horn/wood/snew are different . I think draw weight/ 3 is not true.
I used 8 ( each 10-15 gr)moose snew, some snew are scraps. I know cow snew is lighter than moose. Total snew weight is important, I can not say how many deg snew you need cause of scraps.

Cem

cem,thanks for the for the detail explain

Absolutely fantastic bow! Congratulations. Superb craftsmanship.
To make a hornbow like is my long term goal. Thank you for all the pictures they are inspirational.

Hello Cem,very nice work:the sinewing is perfect.Does the draw weight really rise from 77 to 114lbs in the last 5cm?
Bye
Francesco

Thanks Mike & Alessi.

Alessi :
Yes draw weight is very rise in last few cm. İt is very stacked and heavy bow.

Cem

I love this bow .

I will try to build one, just like you. I used your bows as a source of inspiration, and was a good choice.
I imitated rounded section in the heart , additional tendon edge and other details.
(As a difference from what I saw on the forum , I processed mechanically horn .I heated them, just before they fix the heart , to make sure that the concave shape.)

I am very curious, to see other works made ​​by you.

Thanks Traianj. İf you questions feel free to ask.

Cem

Beside the great craftmanship( which is not as delicious as it looks like with that laser cut tools), this way to glue the horn to the wood is not the best solution. Imagine the convex/concav cross- sections of the wood/horn as separated into strips lengthwise: the center- strip is longer than the side- strips, so more or less heavily shear- forces will be provoqued.
Flat rectangular cross- sections are the non-plus- ultra for every kind of bowery. Don?t mix that statement with a rounded belly, the glue- line is the point.
Historically seen, almost every hornbow has been glued with a flat glue- line.
Michael

I'm not sure if I agree with that, Redhawk. Adam has a section in his book that explains the advantages of the rounded belly over a rectangular one. Also, when a delamination between the horn and wood starts, it starts from the edges. - and by curving the glue line one effectively moves the glue line edges into the safer neutral plane of the limb. And by that also securing the glue line with more sinew over the edge.


With stiffer materials such as wood, which stretches and compresses less than sinew and horn, a more rectangular cross section is advantageous. - because the bent-sponge-effect is not as extreme, and therefore not overstressing the edges as much.


Yes, the rectangular cross section is in theory the most efficient, but there are other factors that must be regarded too. Make a rectangular-cross section wooden bow and overstress it just a little, and one will see that it is always the edges either on the back or belly that will give up first. By rounding off these edges the problem is solved and the stress is better spread out in the limb. - and this is more pronounced in a horn/sinew limb that is being bent a lot more than a wooden bow.

That?s what I saw coming: I didn?t talk about the rounded belly thing!
I?m talking about a flat glue line, almost no historical proove of convex/concav gluelines, the old bowyers knew what to do.
Just think about the shearring forces. I?ve seen 2 bows broken cause of convex/concav glueing(lengthwise splitting of the horn!!), made by a friend of mine, who has very succesfully glued hornbows the usual way.
Why complicating things, if there is a proved much better and secure way? Challenge? For what?
So far, cheers, 2012 is calling, Michael

I believe concave -convex cross section is the best, more or less shear forces are important but not everything. Concave-convex cross section makes the bow more wood- stability and more gluing area. N.Axis distance to gluing line at center is important , no matter concave-convex or flat line. I do not see flat gluing line in Turkish bows, in add. I see perfect matched grooving line in old bow. I see old bowyers calculated the cross section.

Cem

You have obviously both examined old bows and come to a different conclusion - so who's right :D ?

may I throw in a thought: when using a shaver-like grooving tool, the grooves are perfect - but microscopically do you get a SHAVEN or a ROUGH surface ? does the wood and horn suck in water drops or not ? I imagine if the surface is microscopically flat like polished after shaving, the important (microscopic) glueing area is rather diminished than extended or ? (I have so far no experience with grooving tools)

Great bow！ Could you please tell me what is the width of widest and thinnest place of bow and which kind of bark do you use?

Thanks Douniu.
The place is 3,1cm width and 1,3mm thick. Snew is 2mm . Bark is Betula pendula . Wish you success.
Cem

thank you so much!

Just out of curiosity, have there come any new bows out of your workshop lately, Cem?

Anything flight-related happening?

Kviljo,

I have a new bow , it has finished (last layer) 30/5/2012. I strung it last month.İt is 110cm ntn, 59lb in 24in. İt is very stable and no twisting but little balance problem. I will cover it with bark. Here is some photos. I hope you like it.

p.s.
When I wisited Adam in March we have a photo with this bow .You can see this bow Adam hold it.

Cem

Another pic.

Another

same bow

same bow

Wow! 8) It looks very fast with those quite bendy kasan eye sections. Also, I really like the way it is smoothly bending right up to the handle - this is something I have to work on.

What's your method of making the sinew surface so smooth? Do you burnish/compress it when it is still somewhat moist? Or is it simply a matter of filling in small depressions with a final thick layer of glue, and then sanding smooth? Anyway, it really looks professional :)

I seperate the snew as I can do, so snew accept the glue well, generally seperating time takes min. one week or so. One layer backing time min. 2-3 hour at time, I remember 5 hour :^) After last layer, I lightly sand only sides and compress the back side still it moist. Finally I glued the last layer with thick( about 50%) glue .

Cem

:shock: ......................! It?s everytime a pleasure to see your work!

Thanks, hope to see you in Dresden.
Cem

I would be pleased :D

you have a lot of patience Cem, very nice bow and very fine work!

master.

Thanks Alex, Uli. Maybe half master. :^)

http://atarn.net/phpBB2/files/12_152.jpg

scemdonmez: can you make some other pics of this bow sinew back? thanks, there are some words on the book in china ming dynasty , maybe it can proof turkish technology used in china and korean

Jiao,

Backing pics of same bow.

Cem

After 2. layer

Just snewed bow

scemdonmez

thank you for the pics,
why some horizontal sinew lines on your sinewback? i am not think your glue or sinew break, are you broadwise/infeed sinewback?

Jiao,

The lines on snew you saw is wooden core grooving lines. After last layer it is not very tansparent.

Cem

http://atarn.net/phpBB2/files/12_152.jpg
http://atarn.net/phpBB2/files/6_813.jpg
form pics there are some broadwise/infeed lines perpendicular wooden core grooving lines

Sorry, these are glue cracks. I glued the core with thick glue after last layer.

This is another bow with glue cracks.

Cem

Jiao,

Another glue cracks.

Cem

Every time I have made a sinew back, I get those cracks in the glue. Are they a bad sign in a bow?

Are they unavoidable? I'm too scared to thin my glue down any further!

Mike
İt is unvoidable but do not worry about it .