GLUE

I recently got hold of some liquid fish glue. Fish skin glue, not bladder. It smelled like a bunch of additives, but it had the look and consistency of lukewarm hide glue. The fish glue desn't gel, which is good for working in cold climates, but it is not supposed to be as strong as hide glue.

I mixed 1/3 fish glue with 2/3 hide glue for my last glue-up, and it kept the hide glue from gelling as fast. The mix seemed more suitable for the task, although I would not use it for sinewing.

Jack; are you able to assemble the horn before the hide glue gells, or do you re-heat the entire bow after assembly to re-liquify the glue?

Kviljo; I live on the Texas gulf coast. Assemblies are most often done on hot humid days. No matter how many wraps of inner tube I make, I always leave spaces to check for squeeze out. If I am not satisfied, a certain area can be wetted and some small heat applied until the elastic squeezes a little glue out.

I recently made a repair to a Scythian bent core piece by this method days after the original repair had been made.

The best thing to do is make sample horn and wood pieces and experiment with glue consistency, timing and repairs. Then cut and split the samples later to check the glue lines.

It is magic how this glue can be reconstituted. The water is bound to the glue and leaves slowly, as traditional information indicates.

In other words you would not mind if the glue gelled before you clamped the horn to the core?

I have found a few voids between the core and horn on my latest glue-up, and they are where I think the glue might have gelled slightly. Perhaps there just wasn't enough glue to suck in, but I fear that voids easily form if the glue gel before clamping. Re-heating won't get rid of these voids?

Could voids form if the glue is too thin?

I always strive for a perfect glue up the first time; eg. practicing wrapping and examining the fit. If you clamp you cannot move the bow over a heat source.

Of course there must be plenty of glue. About 15-18 coats to both pieces of standard glue which dries to the touch in between coats. When wetted and heated and re wetted the entirety becomes a viscous mass between core and horn. If the glue up goes slowly, add more glue or water and heat to reactivate the glue mass. The proper glue up can be observed at the squeeze out of the edges.

Have you seen the tape on Korean bow building?

I agree with Jack about the "viscous mass" forming as the thick glue layer softens with heat and moisture. The bladder and palate glues form this mass at a lower temperature, which is advantageous. Overdoing the thickness of glue will however ultimately weaken the (dry) bond, because there is a tendency of the dry glue to crack (craze) into small crystals in use. I saw this effect in Korean bows where the limbs delaminated.

I do not believe the reheating od the clamped parts is safe though. The reheated gelled glue is here re-liquified and can flow out of the joint, leaving voids. If the gelled glue is left alone to dry, the clamping pressure will reduce the chance of voids, since the gap (if any) will get smaller as the glue dries, while the glue remains inside.

In any case, if a gap is noticed after clamping, more glue should be added to fill the joint. This is what the Koreans do after clamping: inspect the joint and add glue. Very little heat can be applied to the edge of horn to make it warmer and let the added glue flow-in easier. But I do not see this as the "reheating" of the part to liquify glue, as some people do. If you watch the Korean video, the bowyer does not really "reheat" the horn to liquify the glue inside. It would actually be rather difficult to do, since the entire limb is wrapped by the rope - a good insulator.

During the clamping of horn, if the glue gells before the pressure is applied, the gelled section should be flooded with some thin glue to re-activate the gelled glue for a better bond. Teoretically, hot water would do the same, but I'd rather use glue, to reduce a chance of weakening the bond by washing out glue from the joint.

Adam

I find that commercial hide glue such as that found at Lee Valley tools is incredibly brittle. That includes the fish glue.
My favorite is still Gelatin. I always clamp with inner tube strips and place the bow in the sunlight which absorbs enough heat to re-liquefy the glue. Using a generous amount and monitoring the squeeze out will prevent dry joints.
Experimentation on scraps is always a good idea.

The Korean video! Thanks for the reminder!

I think I need to wait longer for the first coats to dry. How thick should the total of the coatings be, before putting on the final coat of glue? Should it be enough to fill the grooving (~2mm deep), making the surfaces flat? - and how dry should the first coatings be? It should feel more solid than just gelled glue, and be non-sticky?

Sorry for asking all the questions. Sometimes I need to have it fed in with a teaspoon, hehe. It might be a language-thing. Craft-nuances isn't always easy to transmit through the wire. I hope it doesn't look too much like hijacking :)


It seems what glue works best is quite dependent on where in the world you live :) Gelatine gells like mad where I live, at least in fall/winter. You must have warm summers for it to stay liquid in the sun, Patrick!

:wink: Bravooo guys. Thats what i say in another discusion. We must talking about glue ! Our "COLAGEN" bows important part vith many secrets is - glue. Like you says climate , humidity, temperature in working place, glue temperature , glue density, how and when mix diferent glues ... etc

On the contrary I live in Canada and generally do my gluing in the winter. You can run into mildew trouble and rotting when summer temps are too high.
The secret is the black tubing wrap. A sheltered spot in the late winter when the sun is bright can heat the materials incredibly quickly even when the outside temp may be cold.
Then the glue will flash gel as soon as you move it out of the sun.

I will concede that gluing is not a one size fits all sort of operation. As I see it assembling with inner tube strips has these advantages;

1. The equipment is so cheap

2. Even if a form is also used, the bow can be held over a heat source and the heat WILL PENETRATE and reactivate the glue. The strips take up the slack.

3. clamping creates uneven pressure

4. wrapping also binds the edges

5. the weight of the clamps can warp the alignment. A wrapped bow can be turned for examination.

Looking some more info on net and think to put here some interesting things about glue. Just some more input ....

http://cool.conservation-us.org/coolaic ... 19-29.html

http://www.maestronet.com/forum/index.p ... pic=320687

Thanks Fusizoli, this pages demonstrating how litlle we know.

First adress is known for everybody who interesting about glue in net . This citation was i mean important:

" Historic sources do not always specify which part of the fish was used to make the glue."

Sturgeon skin have another characteristic like airbladers or mouth or bones...

Thats why i never buy fish glue. One dont know from what source they cookin glue.

Violin masters discusion show , how litlle we know about it. Dont put any Formaldehid or so. Its help water resistant , but glue qualities drop badly.

When you glued 2 bows at month boys, i play this game vith many fishis body. You can see how many secrets are in our hobby , and you wander at mi criticism...

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another sweet wather airbladers...

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Have a question about prepairing air bladders. Have bought some in the market and start to work with (first in my life).
This is sweet water fish bladders but think not wild fish because lot of fat on (may for winter?). So start to clean it with hands and after warm water etc.

Now I ve a plate of dryed whole bladders with a lot of litle oil drops from fish fat. What could I do next? Put tham water again and start the procedure again on another way? Take a knife and clean like U did.
That last picture helps, thanks for shareing.

I see a lot of work with that damn bladders too :)

Well, Zoltan you are in right way :) . Some pics about Kaspic sturgeon airbladers:

URL=http://img.enter4u.eu/P1010003ak6d.JPG][external image][/URL]

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If you have bladers dry , only very patience mechanicly wash out fat vith cotton cloth or paper and when you are cooking glue separate fat from bowl.

next steps after cooking (sweat water airbladers) :

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some pics from mi "atelier"- its mi working place. Seesome of mi bows, for" dontbelieve" people- i am sizing glue here :

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Sorry , mistake info. Pics (sweet water glue) is not fish airbladers glue , but pure sinew glue .

I believe now! :o

Thanks for the pictures. Preparing that stuff is a lot of work for sure.

Hi,

Will sinew glue and Sturgeon bladder glue mix together and be suitable for sinewing? I've heard that sinew glue alone is too hot for sinewing when liquid. I've found Isinglass stays liquid at a low temperature. I was wondering if I mixed the two whether I could make the Isinglass (which is very expensive) go further.

I was one time in another discusion talk about this .Carp fish (and some another sveet wat.) have no 2 layers but 3 ! See pics :

Heer you can see all variation. I cal this layers-pearl, sinev and hide bladers. Top is "pearl" bladers. left "sinew" bladers, right "hide bladers.
Every layers has his characteristic. I dont stop experiments, but last year bows i coat vith pearl bladers . Its i mean better from this 3. But who know. Go on boys its chance experimenting !!!

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Pearl bladers :

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Sinew (like) bladers :

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I tear pearl blader in hand , before cooking , you can see smal yelow fat places. This fat i clean from cooking glue. I dont like work vith benzin or spiritus... :

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Zoli, i mean that summer is best time to work vith bladers - and sinew to. When mi bladers and sinew dry i everyday go and scraping and cleaninf fat .

Dylan, thats important question of all - how mix diferent glues and in wvich %. This series of bows i experimenting especiali vith this diferent mixtures. I cant answer you definitely, because this is big question for all. Because this i only smile when i see bows gluening "only" vith hide glue.

This is so simple...
Or maybe only i complicated mi life :lol: ?

But answer is . Yes from all sources old masters mixed sinew glue vith fish glue. One source say that best fly bows has mixed vith palate (mouths sturgeon skin glue..?) but all this is must be experimenting from us ... Not modern superglue... :roll:

Pazuzu, when you see in pics sturgeon airbladers are so diferent from the svetwater fish bladers. Now i can say from experisnces, that sturgeon glue give you more time than sveatwater fish glue to work. I mean that this is important advantage . Another question is glue from sturgeon skin , sturgeon gristles (because he havent "bones" ) . Mi friend Jano Nagy working vith Sturgeons skin and other parts of his body. But he was not endid vith experiments too. But must be more answers in this thema. But only if we gluening many bows vith diferent glue mixture and the and - SHOOT them - only this was ansver for next work. This is so much work and problems for one person !

From this reason is Atarnet very usefull and i hope members who try make composite "Colagen" bow cooperate in "openning" this problems and in the and "understand" that now is no time to " hey guys i glued new hornbow !", but seriouz experimenting and searching right answer ! (I hope that you understand mi anglish ...)

Dusan, you're right .... very difficult for one man and one life to find so many secrets. sometimes sadden because i do not know many things. a secret in a bow not only the glue :D ....thank you for the answers.

Thanks Pazuzu. Maybe if more of us cooperate and we agree experimenting vith diferent woods and mixed glues - every one vith diferent mix - we can know something more that now. Its must be seriouz "like science" work.
Make a note of every step of your work etc.. etc...Crazy work. Crazy hobby :lol:

For those who think that there is only bovine glue and fish glue, I would draw your attention to a presentation made by our friend Yi Degang at the WTAF 2009 seminar. His presentation used the text "Examination of Crafts", (KGJ), a 2000 year old Chinese text on crafts, and subsequent texts correcting mistakes of the original. As the KGJ speaks authoritatively about crafts like horn bow making and arrow making, the information may be of much older source.

"When examining the glue, you need reddish color and the glue must be aged. After aging, the glue can seep deep into cracks and fill them, so that when it is twisted, it will not crack under torque. Glue made from deer is grey, glue from horses is pink, from oxen is bright red, from rats is black, from fish is translucent, and from rhinoceros is yellow. No close [substitute] for these types [of glue[ can be effective."

Stephen has quoted this text before also. There are many other interesting sections of the text.

As I recall, a German glue company did tests on its glues and concluded that fish glue was only slightly better than bovine. -j-

Thanks Jack. its interesting. Every old texts are interesting , but i dont know if info about rhinos glue help us :D . we have problem buy sturgeon airbladers .
About German company... I can you tell from mi personal experinces that between bovine hide glue and bovine sinew glue is diferences.Maybe not big , but ... Third variation is bovine bone glue- there is some bigger diference. That must be more diferences between bovine and fish glues. From what fish ? Or from what piece of fish body ?

Exists real theorie , that between bovine (hide, sinew) glue and fish (stirgeon an others) is only one diference- time to geling.

Maybe its tru. I believ that no. Only experiments vith final bows and his shooting qualities can say more.
I believe old masters. This people was - like you said, teach from young age . I believe that this people dont use some mix if he dont give him advantage.

If i remember good , somvhere in old sources masters experience said that only using good sturgeon glue in sineving give fly bow another 100 or more metres. (I must see in texts pumktualy...bad head :cry: )

jack, I guess you mean Kremer pigments.

The best glue and pigment supplier ever.
Mr. Kremer is a former manager of selling modern glues and resins.
Once he began to think about all the waste and poison he was selling, so he began to study natural pigments and glues. He spent a lot of time to study old books in monasteries. A very serious and outstanding person.
Kremer tested all the natural glues: hide- glue made from glues of small animals(so- called rabbit- glue) is very matching a bowyers need.
No need to use fish- glue, anyway I use it for very strong bows.
That?s safety- thinking.

Michael

http://kremer-pigmente.de/en (English page)
http://www.kremer-pigmente.de/shopint/i ... &list=0201 (glue page)
http://www.kremer-pigmente.de/shopint/i ... duct=63110 (Isinglass glue)

They also have a catalog available for download.

I have the hide glue from dick.biz. Do I have to worry now?

Daniel

Jack

What is your heat source when you re-heat bow? I am worried it may make tubing weak and the wrapping loosen, no?

Daniel , no... What i can say from- only eye comparison- Dics, Kramer and another Sturgeon(maybe) airbladers glue loks same. But i dont think nothing good about his "pure" quality.Loks vey diferent from mi air dried sturgeon bladers. I think that IF it is natural sturgeon bladers, he must be once cooking and than chemical or destilation cleaning, than dried. look at the pics :

fom left to right : sturgeon dried palate plates, sturgeon airbladers dried, comercial fish (sturgeon "airbladers") glue . I buy this fue years ago in Prague artsts shop. Looks identicaly like Kremers or another same tipe glue in markets.


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more details- palate plate :

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airbladers 1 :

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airbladers2

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comercial "vizina" glue:

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detail

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I have large quantities of raw hide scraps from thinning hides for tanning. I always refrained from turning them into glue because it?s lots of work and hide glue can be bought for just some cents. What I did is to make sinew glue from deer sinew which worked well and is of grey colour (not bleached).

I know that there are books out there giving a deeper inside in how to make glue. I haven?t got any of them but here?s what I?ve found on the web. What I find is interesting is that those two texts aren?t so picky about high temperatures.

The following text is a translation of a German Chemistry book from the 50?s.

Start of the translation
For making hide glue, place scraps of (raw) hides in a solution of 95% of water and 5% hydrated lime. Let soak for 2-4 weeks. This will lead to the swelling of the scraps and will easy the future hydrolysis. After that the lime has to be washed out thoroughly with large quantities of water.(1)

The scraps are than placed on a sieve (2) in nickelplated pots, water is added and heated to 70?C (158?F) for two hours. This brew is poured off and made into gelatine (3). Than, another brew is made by heating the remaining scraps to 80-90?C (176-194?F) (4). In this way 3 to 4 brews are made with ever raising temperatures. (5) Only the last brew is heated to ebullition. The higher the temperature the darker the brew will get, the further the hydrolysis has progressed.

The final glue is obtained by mixing the different brews than filtering and bleaching them. The glue thus obtained is than placed under vacuum, heated to 50?C and reduced to 25-40% (6). This gooey liquid is poured in 10mm high layers on ?glue tables? whose bottom is constantly cooled down by cold water. The gelatinous mass thus obtained is dried further and finally shredded.
End of the translation


(1) My recommendation: after liming, place the scraps in a pillow case and close it thoroughly. Wash it three times on wool cycle with just plain water. Than place the pillow case in a large bucket with enough water and add about six ounces of salt/gallon of water. Let sit for 2 hours. Add enough of vinegar essence 25% to lower the PH down to about 5-6. Stir from time to time. Check the PH over the next three days. If it?s above 8, add some more vinegar essence to get it down to 7.

After that, wash the pillow case once more on wool cycle. Most of the lime should now be removed.

(2) In my opinion the sieve is placed there to prevent the scraps from being in direct contact with the bottom of the pot thus preventing the scraps from getting to hot. I?ve got another account from 1862 that gives a similar description. Great care is taken that the hides scraps don?t get into contact either with any parts of the pot that are in direct contact (bottom, side walls) with the fire the bottom.

(4) It is not said for how long but I suppose for the same two hours

(3) I do not now what that means ?

(6) I reduce my glue by pouring the gooey liquid on a baking tray and placing this in the oven at 50?C (122?F) with the door slightly open so that water can evaporate. Works great but be careful to remove the tray in time or you will have troubles scraping the glue off. It gets very very sticky indeed.

(5) In another chemistry book from 1862 there is an excellent tip how to check if the brew is ready to be poured off. It says: The brew is ready to be poured off if a sample of it poured into an egg shell solidifies after some minutes.

Thank you !Thats it.

Kremer's claim their Isinglass glue to be an "own product".
They also offer a lot of information about animal glues, recipes etc. Quite interesting stuff, although I have not yet tried their glues myself.

I've bought about 1 kilo of Keremer Isinglass that it said it's from real bladder of strougen fish but i haven's test it yet.
I've problem with weather here we have four season all with diffrent temperature and i dont know when i must use which glue and it's a big problem for me?

Alex; I use gas flame from a stove to heat bow parts. A low flame and 6-10 inches above is good. Use your hand to determine how hot , don't overdo it.
The strips take up the slack. You are not heating enough to damage them either. -j-

Very useful translation. The sieve is a good idea to keep the scraps suspended. I found they stick to the bottom of the pot in no time and no amount of stirring will move the mass. The method of cooking glue in the double boiler prevents it from happening and the temperature never goes beyond 90deg.

The pretreatment with lime loosens the structure of the material so the extraction of glue is easier for the better yield. I do not think it is necessary for our purposes, plus the remains of lime may weaken the glue by denaturation - the glue will not gel properly when alkaline.

I used the Kremer isinglass a few time and it is OK. The bladders are always very white. I believe they must be bleaching them. I got a few bladders from a nearby sturgeon farm recently - all were yellowish and stained with blood, so the glue is a little colored as well.

Adam

Does any body have any advice for glues,gelling,temperature and humidity?

Tgis is not only color, Adam. Maybe its no visible from mi mobile pic but structure and thick of thes two material was diference. Definitly i think that these plates was cooking or soaking and than presing and dried . No one cant say if in these material wasnt fish skin or another parts of fish body.Or if it is all from sturgeon ?
I dont very much believe big corporation... I fue times see that not all in working process is right. :roll:

I m right in process of cooking my first sweet water fish bludder glue. I ll let it more than 2 hours in double boiler. Cuted little parts and now after half hour is very sticky so itt looking good for me. Hope will get good results. Next stepp is make the same with my sinew fall down parts.....

After this will have hide , rabbit , fish bladder, and sinew glue just have to start use tham :)

I know what you mean Dusan. Kremer sells two types - the cheaper one looks like pressed sheets of dry bladder. The expensive one looks like bits of dry bladder with no processing. Both are white and come from a Russian company (I to not recall the name at the moment). I used both and it seems the cheaper one is not as easy soluble as the other one, but both make glue OK.

Adam

Anyway, it help people who buy this glues . I will work on miself products :D

In the 1990's I used knox gelatin for glue. I used it in the siyah fishtail joints, handle lap joints and sinew backing. It seemed to hold up well for all functions.

I also made batches of deer hide glue, and some deer sinew glue. All seemed to be very strong and able to hold sinew and all joints together. I still have every bow I made back then and they all still shoot.

Regardless of which kind of glue I used I developed a certain preference for gluing up.

For the wood to wood joints I always used two differing glue batches. First I would used a very thin glue mix that was mostly water. I would brush this on in very thin coats, heat up the wood over the stove and then rub it in until I had a foam of bubbles formed from air escaping from the wood pores and mixing with the thin glue. I tried to make sure that these thin coats had no lumps, bumps or drips gelled on, but still relatively dry to the touch. The whole purpose was to penetrate the wood pores deeply with a thin mix of glue that would bond well with later layers of glue when heated. I tired to avoid letting these watery layers of glue get to built up.

The second step was to then put on a layer of hot, very thick, tacky mix of the same glue. My goal was to have a low water content so that in the final drying stage of gluing there would be less stress cracks caused by the glue shrinking.

After the thick, tacky layer is added, step three begins. I then put the pieces together. If it is a fishtail splice for siyahs or handles I push the thickly glued peices together while hot and hold until it cools and gels enough to hold together on its own. Then I gently apply either a few clamps or tight cord wrap. Then I reheat the joint to force out any excess thick glue and hold together with my hands until it gels again. The thicker the batch of glue in step two, the faster it hardens up and there are less microscopic stress cracks from shrinking. Another advantage is that I rarely squeeze out too much glue or have a dry joint.

Step three for lap joints, such as laminating 3-4 bent wood strips to make a curved siyah peice, involves wrapping the whole bundle of laminations with a "rope clamp". You probably already know what a rope clamp is, but for those who do not, it is simply a rope passing through a hole in a bar of hard wood that wraps the rope around the peices and tightens the rope as it is wrapped. I do not worry about the glue gelling. After the wrapping is done I then reheat (preferably with a narrow jet of steam from a tea pot) the glue joints and wood peices until the excess glue squeezes out. I advise heating only a few inches at a time and slowly working from one end to the other. This gives one more control over how much glue comes out. If it seems to come out to much then immediately remove from heat and heat another area on the work.

Buy this method I am often able to remove the clamps or rope clamps a mere 4 hour later and then put the peice in a rack for further drying.

Thanks for the input. Allways like to read how others do :)

Forgive me if someone has already asked or addressed this question.

What differences are there in elasticity for differing glues when totally dry?

It seems to me that those glues that are more elastic would be preferable for gluing bow parts that are stressed far more than furniture.

I'm just guessing, but I suspect the fish bladder glue may be more elastic than regular hide glue. Has anyone done tests on various samples for elasticity and crack resistence?

if hot the glue full dissolve, the glue in water is clear, there are not greet differ the bladder glue and sinew glue and hide glue, all of them is weak when it dry and gel slowly

it is reason jack said the korean bowyer' bladder glue not differ hide glue

in china and korean has a style glue made by differ method, steam bladder or hide till you can use chopsticks penetrate through it , then hammering it till it or like korean bowyer' video wring it ,then re-cook it in water,it is turbidly yellow glue, when add more water it like the milk ,it can gel fast and strong,

i test all the glue dry on fabric, the hide/sinew/bladder "clear" style glue , all of it is week, and all the turbidly glue is strong, the fabric got flexibility it can stand and shoot fast, i make some pig hide glue , use hand shoot a chopsticks to the big basin of gel glue, the glue rebound the chopsticks out 1m, my top secret about it is add salt,monosodium glutamate,green garlic, ha , a very good food i made

the alum add to the glue can stop the glue gel and shrink, if temperature high you can see the white deposit in clear hide glue, after you do this, the glue seem has no effect the glue has, but i see korean bowyer swill the glue to horn, at last the korean bowyer show the glue, the white deposit on the bottom others is very strong gel by hand test,i am sure the specialties matter as additive add to the glue!

Hello everyone! I apologize if it was written earlier, but did not find the topic in the forum. I'll try to take the heads of sturgeon. can anyone tell how to prepare the palate and how to prepare itself glue? you must be pre-dried as airbladders? exactly which parts of the head are used? I would be happy if someone help me with accurate and detailed description, pictures and links .... thanks in advance

I was writen about it vith pics, but i dont remember where in Atarn it is. I can show you some pics again.Palate is from the same skin in sturgeon mouth, like you and me have in ours mouth . This is very thin delicate skin. And very hard and smel work pazuzu :lol: .When i was endid vith this work i pray no more again ... But if you have small heads - tjis too much work for nothing. You must have large head , min.40 cm long.
Like this
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here you can see comparison

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small heads- dont buy like this

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thi is what we need

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and than cleaning, cleaning , cleaning all fat if you can . Draying, cleaning...
very strange hobby :roll:

I dont know how good was your experiences vith composites , but i recomendid first bows you can make vithaut palate glue. This is very rarely thing , if you use in broken or bad bow. Good luck.

Thanks Dusan. I just go for airbladders in sturgeon farm and will try to take everything that is beneficial to bowmaking.

PAZUZU: your pictures looks black pepper beefsteak and butter and a cup of blood...... :?

No. This looks like --- somthing from meat or maybe rotten bladers ???

Here is pic from sturheon open belly vith blader

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And here is how looks

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he have gray tuiny skin and we need white material.

jack farrell wrote:

For those who think that there is only bovine glue and fish glue, I would draw your attention to a presentation made by our friend Yi Degang at the WTAF 2009 seminar. His presentation used the text "Examination of Crafts", (KGJ), a 2000 year old Chinese text on crafts, and subsequent texts correcting mistakes of the original. As the KGJ speaks authoritatively about crafts like horn bow making and arrow making, the information may be of much older source.

"When examining the glue, you need reddish color and the glue must be aged. After aging, the glue can seep deep into cracks and fill them, so that when it is twisted, it will not crack under torque. Glue made from deer is grey, glue from horses is pink, from oxen is bright red, from rats is black, from fish is translucent, and from rhinoceros is yellow. No close [substitute] for these types [of glue[ can be effective."

Stephen has quoted this text before also. There are many other interesting sections of the text.

As I recall, a German glue company did tests on its glues and concluded that fish glue was only slightly better than bovine. -j-

the red bladders save for 25 years old
http://img04.taobaocdn.com/imgextra/i4/ ... 308329.jpg
http://img04.taobaocdn.com/imgextra/i4/ ... 308329.jpg
http://img04.taobaocdn.com/imgextra/i4/ ... 308329.jpg

15 years old
http://img07.taobaocdn.com/imgextra/i7/ ... 308329.jpg
http://img04.taobaocdn.com/imgextra/i4/ ... 308329.jpg

one bladder 1840g cost 1000$
http://img08.taobaocdn.com/imgextra/i8/ ... 485291.jpg

10000$ .......!!!!!!!!
http://img02.taobaocdn.com/bao/uploaded ... 10x310.jpg

[/list]Oops sorry guys - for the first time working with sturgeon anatomy and confused. I'm sure - these are air bladders. :oops:

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• lol you are very funny jiao - call egg pepper. sorry for many questions - but I just work and write together. learn on the fly. will now work with their heads. dusan - I see that you have experience. I do not understand exactly what part is used. Please Indicate the picture. can send reply to PM. me were very useful. thank you

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Yes , this is it !

Daniel T. wrote:

I have the hide glue from dick.biz. Do I have to worry now?

Daniel

No worries. It will do. Most of us forget what the glue is there for. Keeping parts together.
The hide glue will not come of, wood will delaminate before. On horn if well done it will delaminate also. Sinew will teer in fibers before the glue comes of.
So hide glue do the work. And I don't think any living man can say his bow is faster or stronger just because of what (ancient)glue he did use :lol:
But the process of making glue is interesting.

I was draw black line , when you must very carefull cut very tinny skin... Hard work .

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Redhorse i thing before that you are smart man... :) You read this fue historical articles where we can tuch old bowyars world. Again - this people was not stupid. He must hard work for big armies- many, many bows. Special bows for nobilities- and his records. You think if this glues was - shit fantasie- this people play this game ?
I play vith oldmasters. You can use hide glue... If your bows was better performance- i apologize you :wink:

If the glue keeps the part together, thats it.
But there can be differences what glue to use in different environment.
And maybe the glue can affect the efficiency in the bow some how, but who can say that for sure?
Test with isingglue did not show any thing that it is better. Just harder and more expensive to work with.
I can promise this, if I had a glue failure I would have change glue.
As with the Titebond, I did try it and it was not good as common withe glue from nearest hardware store. Just more expensive :)

I think the glue used with the sinew directly affects to the properties of the sinew layer. The sinew mostly makes the glue bending. the glue gives the stiffnes. (opposite than epoxy glass matrix). [I have read a peer reviewed *) paper about subject, but lost it when changing employment.]

However in everywhere else the glue either holds, of does not. If it holds it only has one property. It is mass. I do not think there are relevant differences in glue mass , so the differences of glue are how easy it is to apply and how big errors it forgives.

*) I do not mean it is correct. I know there are a lot of peer reviewed grabage written about bows.

Gelatin for food can be in sheets, almost unbreakable. So it can be very elastic.

I'm making some bladder glue from cod bladders right now, and have a question. Consensus seems to be that they should be mechanically torn apart and heated with as low heat as possible for as short time as possible. However, I can not find any specific heat limit that should not be passed.

Jang Yuhwa, in the article at atarn.org sais he keeps it well below boiling point at 60-70 degrees celsius, for about 20-22 hours.

Adam is not as specific, and writes in his book that a double-boiler keeps the substance under boiling point, and that 12 hours should be maximum.


Is it okay to heat them in a double boiler and keep the water-bath just slightly simmering, or will that be too much heat? Where's the heat-limit between good glue and bad glue?

Kviljo,
the case of sturgeon bladders from Bulgaria :lol:, he tore them into tiny pieces and make them soaking in water (20-30 hours). then crush like dough and add water according to the desired concentration. 50 degrees is sufficient for cooking. ready for 30-60 minutes. remain small quantity undergraded bladders, but I do not cook them more
Success!

I haven't dared start on your Sturgeon bladders yet. :) Seems I will have to crush them better than I have done now. The Cod bladders I have been working with took much longer time to melt.

Now the house smells like the inside of a fish, but my stress-level while glueing horn will be sooo low from now on. 8) The cod bladder glue does not even gell at 18 degrees C. Brilliant stuff, but not so easy to dry on a string :lol: (So I froze it instead)

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/MSgkrnL92O8/
http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/YW9b7eHIL4Q/
:D :D