I am just getting started in the use of the thumb ring and have been instructed, and have gotten proficient in a certain style which has it origins I do not know.
But, what is the advantage of drawing the bow to or beyond the ear like the chinese tradition, or drawing the bow to the mouth as in the Turkish Traditions?
Initially I guessed that the power stroke of the bow would be the reasoning, but 50lbs of force is 50lbs of force. (force acting on the arrow after release)
Does anybody did any research or may have a better understanding?
Thank you
Joseph
Stephen Selby
Drawing to the ear, the eye or the mouth all work fine once you get used to them.
The advantage of the long Chinese draw, with the draw-arm elbow, shoulder, bow-arm shoulder, elbow and wrist all in a straight line, ("five points level") is that the bone structure takes the strain of holding the draw with a heavy bow instead of the muscles. But that method is only suitable for ground, target archery and no use on horseback.
S
daryush
Stephen: How come it's not useful when mounted?
(assuming it's possible to use heavy bows in the saddle, which I'm sure it is given enough training...)
jbl
Joe-the longer the draw the more the weight of the draw increases i.e. a bow 50lb@28" will be let's say 56lb@30". I talked to a friend who shoots English War Bows (100lb+ draw weight) he says that drawing past the ear as it seems most Ancient cultures did allows him to get MUCH more caste. That would be the advantage to any bow whether it is an Asian bow, English longbow or a modern glass recurve.
mongolianarcher
Crab bows are drawn to the ear, manchu and korean and japanese are beyond the ear. Scythian, and standard turkish bows are drawn to the lip.
ravenbows
Stephen, that is actually the reasoning that I am looking for. Not that Im looking for an answer, just that for practical killing reasons.....be it human in war or for the harvesting of food............I had a hard time determining why one would extend so far back at moving game or during war.
It seems to me that a shorter draw would facilitate a quicker release of the arrow thus requiring less time to get the arrow to its mark. Which in a hunting situation often times is mere seconds........and I would imagine that would also be the case during war time.
JBL........you make a good point.......but would a 56lb bow perform as well drawn to 28 inches as a bow that was 56lb drawn to 32 inches?
Im just wondering if the extended time the arrow is on the string, given that both bows have the same brace height, would be an advantage?
mongolianarcher
Usually the bows with the longest draw are the higher energy transferrers, if that makes any sense, like the manchurian, and thus they have more energy to penetrate.
Boghadair
Lucas,
they may have more energy for penetration but the downside is the heavy siyhas have more mass,move slower, cause more handshock and the heavier arrows won't go as far. But one wants to get as close to the game as is practical.At point blank range, yes the heavier arrows should do better.Correct me if I'm wrong, anyone.
Bede
The Manchus, Crimean Tatars, and Japanese all used heavy arrows and maximised the energy in them with a long draw.
The Turks according to Kani did draw to the ear normally, but there were several reasons in warfare to draw shorter.
The most obvious one is the cheek pieces of the helmet. An archer needed to have consistent arrow placement: drawlength and height. While wearing a helmet, you either draw to the length of the arrow and hold the drawing hand away from the face or draw to the edge of the cheek piece.
The standard arrow lengths specified in Saracen Archery have the war arrow shorter than the target arrow. Another issue is the arrows issued to the army. There is no practical way of delivering new arrows by individual length to soldiers during a battle. They were probably standardised. Tall men would be forced to use arrows that compelled them to draw short. Short men would either have to draw past their comfort zone or draw the arrow short.
A modern example that might refer to the latter problem is the current practice among the Mongols of using arrows of Manchu military length and putting marks or tape on them so that they can only draw to the ear.
Ingo Simon wrote in a letter that using a Manchu bow and long arrows gave him greater accuracy. He was regularly hitting a match box on a string at 25 yards. He also commented that it was much easier to find the large arrows.
What Stephen and the longbow shooter said agrees with my experience. With a bow designed for the draw, you are able to line up your joints and get a strong and efficient draw and deliver a hard hitting arrow. The shorter draw is useful for many shots and can be made efficient by good bow and arrow design. The long draw is useful when shooting fewer, more powerful arrows.
mongolianarcher
Exactly, I cant believe I forgot about the Krimeans set up as well, I am glad you explained it completely Bede. Boghadair, this is true, the Manchus did have to ride closer to their targets.
Lets say the Koreans and Manchus went to battle.
The koreans would be well protected with strong small bows that go up to 500m, but have small penetration because of the distance, and arrow's small penetration energy. Also you can imagine how much wind can change the course of these arrows.
So it could be led to believe it takes more than one arrow to kill a manchurian.
The manchu with their big robust bows would be headed down to the middle of the battle field getting within 180 yards, shoot their arrows accurately, and each arrow that hits, kills.
Bede
Judging by a lecture I heard by Colonel Kim Ki-Hoon, the Koreans recognised the problem and I have seen war bows that were built bigger and heavier to achieve a similar effect to the Manchu bows. Later in their history, they tended to get closer to their enemies before shooting.
It is interesting to speculate why of the great Eurasian civilisations, only the Turks and the peoples of the Indian sub-continent kept using medium draw length bows with light weight arrows. The Qajar Persian bows had also gone towards the longer draw length. The Turks used Crimean Tatar cavalry in the final Vienna campaign at the same time as using their own shorter bows as shown by the captured weapons in Karlsruhe.
ravenbows
I wonder though, regardless if you are shooting a big heavy arrow or not, is it not necessary to get the arrow off in an expedient a fashion as possible?
And would not this shorter draw provide that extra time?
Bede,
I see in your picture that you are drawing a shorter draw, are you consciously anchoring in one place?
Thanks
Joseph
mongolianarcher
Yes Bede, I have also noticed the small amounts of short draw users. I guess because the Persians and Turks were known for their quick shooting, they kept the draws and bows, short. That is all I can come up with.
jbl
Even in modern archery a longer arrow is considered more "stable" and "accurate".
Bede
IF you are talking about the picture used with my name, I am not at full draw there. I was using a snatched release where I drew until the point of the arrow entered the siper and then snatched back the drawing hand and released when my thumb touched the lobe of my ear. I had previously worked out that this brought the point of the arrow to the centre of the siper's groove.
It is certainly true that you can shoot faster with a shorter draw. I think that most of the users of the longer draw were more deliberate in their shooting. However, speed of shooting was used to test you proficiency in nocking and drawing. In battle, it would probably have limited uses though it was still being used by the Mongols. Shooting rapidly in battle requires a rapid turnaround of archers so that they could replenish their quivers. This disrupted the battle line if it was moving, but was successful if it was static. Even at twelve arrows a minute, you shoot 24 arrows in two minutes.
The increase of the use of long heavy arrows increased with the development of firearms. The Manchu cavalry in the eighteenth century had muskets for long range fighting, bows for medium range and swords and lances for close range fighting. Until the invention of repeating firearms, bows could still compete on horseback in cavalry to cavalry encounters.
mongolianarcher
Oh Bede, so since firearms took over long range, they wanted their bows to focus on killing power instead of range.
jbl
Many historians say it was the cannon that lead to bows not being used in battle not the gun.
Bede
I think that cannon had a much greater effect on cavalry than on archery. Infantry squares in the Napoleonic era had to approach fairly close for the muskets to have the desired effect. Muzzle loading, smooth bore muskets had a cone of fire. The ball went in the direction of the last bounce in the barrel so aiming was not much of an option at long distances.
Archery was killed off in Europe because hand guns could be used by anyone, fit or not. They could be produced in large numbers more easily than cross bows. The effect of the musket balls was serious and made armour useless. The slow rate of fire was compensated by drilling the infantry. Mass use reduced the need for accuracy. They were ideal for state use since guns could be produced and stored as could the ammunition.
Bows and arrows deteriorate in storage. People need more practice to use them well. In Europe, cavalry was not bow using except in Poland and Hungary.
This is a very complicated topic because archery survived in different places and died out quickly in others.
mongolianarcher
Are there any records of european nations being famed for their archers/horsearchers other than UK and hungary? Also what was the name of the bows the polish used?
Bede
Archers were used all over Europe. The English, Welsh and Scots are well known, but the French raised troops of archers as did the Burgundians in the late Middle Ages. Archery was prominent in Scandinavia and it the southern Slavic states in various periods. In some areas like Switzerland and Italy, crossbows were popular. States in the area occupied by the present states of Germany and the Netherlands were also big crossbow users.
Judging from surviving manuscripts, various hand bows were used all over Europe, but their prominence in warfare varied with the time you are looking at. The Poles apparently used locally made and imported composite bows. There were both Tatars and Armenians in the Polish Commonwealth who made bows. Undoubtedly there were native Polish makers of composite bows too.
In areas like Sicily and Spain that had an Arab presence, both local and imported archery traditions existed. The Hohenstaufan emperor, Frederick II, established a colony of Sicilian Arabs at Lucera in southern Italy to supply his army with archers.
Because of the well known successes of English longbowmen, sometimes the other archers in Europe are forgotten, but they did exist. The use of foreign horse archers is also known. Eastern Europe had more horse archery than the western part of the continent.
This is a really big area of study and covers a very long time.
jbl
The Poles and Russians copied many of the Tatar forms of dress and warfare. The Poles and other Eastern European countries used the bow well into the 17th Century. Both of these countries were (are) Steppe countries that relied heavily on cavalry.
Alan Flashing
Very interesting and informative Bede, thank you very much.
alan
Orda Khan
jbl wrote:
The Poles and Russians copied many of the Tatar forms of dress and warfare. The Poles and other Eastern European countries used the bow well into the 17th Century. Both of these countries were (are) Steppe countries that relied heavily on cavalry.
Nevsky introduced these changes very early in the Mongol western campaign. It makes sense to adopt the tactics that destroyed your armies, not to mention gaining favour among your new masters.
jbl
It is said that the army lead by Yermak at the River Irtysh in 1582 looked so much like the Mongol/Tatar army you could not tell them apart except for the Cossack banners.
ginni
I would mention moldavian and valachian archers too.
Dusan
Uch , boys . Avar kaganat use slav soldiers 600 years before mongols . And who know what happend before...100 km around Dunaj river are thousands and thousands Skitas arrowheads. And Alans, Celts .... Every step bandits endid his step hiwey near Dunaj river.
Riss Gong
Good time of day, dear Sirs,
It is hard to say now who used whom in oldtimes war campaigns. If you can occupy a country, burning 14 villages of more than 400 well fortified towns, then you may be a Leader of Mongol Army (mythical one). This was the case with the North-eastern Russia (Vladimir-Suzdal). And it happened in WINTER, when not only composite bows cannot shoot well, but you cannot feed yourself, not to mention horses, camels and cattle to feed the army and hay to feed the horses and oxes who carry the food to feed the soldiers and have to eat themselves... Its a headache. Many clever guys tried to do this even later. Napoleon started to lose his horses in July in Lithuainea, "due to cold rains" in the beginning of his campaign.
Well, I am getting far from the topic... Sorry.
In Russian Army the bows and arrows were adopted for the irregular military units even in 19th century, do not remember the date, but in the middle of the century this weapon officialy was purchased. And transition to fire arms was due not to the efficiency, but merely to economic considerations. When this happened bows sometimes were more lethal and more speedy weapon, than smoothbores, but the cost of a gun with supply of powder and bullets cost at that time two times less, than ordinary composite bow and 60 to 80 arrows (traditions were different with various peoples).
So the tradition was killed not in action, but at accountant's table.
Orda Khan
Which brings us to another point so often mentioned about composite bows. Obviously they were less prone to weather conditions than we are given to believe. I have stressed many times that there must have been a very efficient lacquer or other covering that prevented deterioration. The Huns, Avars and Magyars ... and the Mongols didn't seem to be troubled overly by weather conditions.
Alan Flashing
I have to agree with Orda on this , they could not have just ceased all campaigning just because of a turn in the weather. Must have been able to weatherproof them somehow. Lukas Novotny has told me that a bit of foul weather will not hurt them if constructed and sealed correctly. Also I have understood that besides the small rituals to keep them tuned and shooting correctly that they are one of the more durable weapons out there.
Alan
jbl
Many of the campaigns by Steppe people occured during winter because it was easier for them to cross frozen rivers. So yes I would imagine that their bows were very durable in all types of weather.
TZH
Sure, except of heavy rain and storm.
TZH
ravenbows
This is the problem and we can read the history books and do the translations and we can listen to the bowyer's.........but when all is said and done.......we need real life experience. Someone who has taken the hornbow to the forest in bad weather, repeatedly, exposing the bow to the elements and then asking it to perform after that exposure.
I need to speak to someone who puts meat on the table from use of the hornbow. The only bowyer that I have contact with hunts and eats the food the he harvest.............he also uses a hybrid that he built himself. Made of horn and wood and glass. He has killed many deer and even though the bow does have synthetic materials, he still has to make adjustments with the tiller when he strings the bow.
Who has harvested game with such a bow. By the way this is way off topic but interesting none the less.
mongolianarcher
May I ask who that bowyer may be?
Anda
In reference to what Bede stated concerning the history of archery in Europe; even some of the Norse(Vikings)were familiar with the Eurasian bow. Several graves near the old trading town of Birka contain grave goods which are a mix of Eurasian and Nordic design, including the remains of several Eurasian bows. Several of the old Nordic sagas refer to "Hunbogi"(Hun Bows). The history of archery in Europe is more complex than most people realize.
jsachers
Many European (Germanic) peoples got into contact with composite bows: in battles with the Huns, the Avars, the Magyars, the Mongols, and during the crusades. Visual representations from the 6th to the 10th centuries show Germanic warriors (Franks, Alemans, etc.) drawing bows that can be considered to be of composite construction, judging by their shape.
But it is widely believed that these bows were mostly trophies of war, maybe goods of trade, and they may even have been bought from their makers. They may have been put to use as well, but foremost they became a symbol of status ??that's why they were also used as grave goods.
We have no indication that Germanic bowyers ever developed the abilities to build composite bows themselves.
In Latin sources from ancient and medieval times the composite bow is usually referred to as "arcus scythicus" (Scythian bow) regardless of its shape or origin. In early Germanic records (Sagas etc.) the words "hunbogi" or "hornbogi" have the same meaning, i.e. a short reflexed bow of composite construction.
ravenbows
mongolianarcher..........that is James Parker of huntworthy. He has used a turk style bow that is a hybrid for some years and per him has shot alot of deer with it.
I seen the bow in action and it is a VERY good performing bow.
Alan Flashing
Likewise on James Parkers bows, think they are great performers, have heard nothing but good about his work.
A friend of mine in England is expecting one very soon. Look forward to her thoughts on it.
Alan
Riss Gong
Recently I finished with my Turkish bow. All natural, ashwood, horn, sinew, goat skin, damar laquer... What else? Flax fiber string. Just started to train it.
Winter this year is relatively cool in Moscow. Tried it outdoors at -10 Centigrades.
Cruel, but lack of patience is one my bad features. :oops:
Two or three shots were normal. The following shots became less and less speedy. The arrows at 30 m came 50 cm lower at the target.
Of course I took the bow to warm room immediately. Only after that collected arrows. After couple of hours in warm room, training and warming it up with drawings, not with a furnace, went outdoors, the result was the same.
Why?
The answer is simple: the all-natural-composite bows work only when sinew layers keep moisture. Less moisture - more hard bow you have and even prone to fractuation. Too much moisture - the bow is too weak and needs drying before shooting. Adequate level of moisture - you take bow and shoot with pleasure.
What happens in frost? The moisture starts to freeze, and sinew stops working. Imagine frozen meat. Remember, the sinew in the bow is fresh, not boiled.
And waterproof lacquer has nothing to do with coldproofing. Lacquer and skin keep moisture inside, not letting it evaporate under normal conditions - warm or hot, relatively damp weather.
To shoot under frosty conditions you need different bows - like northern nomads used from Norway to Bering Strait and beyond.
Mongolian bows are not intended for this - as far as I know, Mongolians never used bows in winter. Their bows were kept in special jurta where meat was stored - cool and damp. Mongols braced their bows only in spring, when the season of hunting and pasturing of cattle.
Actually they started to be called Mongols only at the end of 19th century. Many of the Mongolians realised that they are Mongols only in the middle of the 20th century, when clever guys from Europe told them about this "historical fact". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxbcVQug7TU
Riss Gong
jbl wrote:
Many of the campaigns by Steppe people occured during winter because it was easier for them to cross frozen rivers. So yes I would imagine that their bows were very durable in all types of weather.
You really can imagine steepe horseback army crossing rivers (or travelling along rivers :shock: ) in winter? Did you ever see Animal Planet, showing horses or cows on ice? We have a proverb "like a cow on ice". Should I explain the meaning?
Well, you crossed with your horses. Two times as much horses as men. With what are you going to feed them? With a stack of hay which you occaisionally happen to pick with you like a pair of sandwiches?
Than you very nice joke. Will tell it to my friends and will laugh together with you :lol:
On Jan 7 went on a horseride in the forest around Moscow. That is far from real taiga and snow is extremely low. It is deeper than in previous couple of years, but still you cannot sink in the snow to your waist - only to one's knees. And still we had to choose roads, beaten by snowbikers. Oherwise - the walk is very short.
And to dig out grass from beneath the snow? It might be possible in Mongolian steepe, where snow is blown away by winds and usually is very thin.
Conclusion - you may come to Eurasia northern parts only if you have enough food stored all over the country and in local population is extremely, tremendously hospitable. Ohterwise (see above) the walk is very short. And oneway only.
Riss Gong
jsachers wrote:
We have no indication that Germanic bowyers ever developed the abilities to build composite bows themselves.
Well, people, to begin with, I do not like when our ancestors are considered to be a bit stupid, a bit lazy, a bit useless. So what we are in this case?
Composite bow belongs to all peoples of Euroasia. How can you imagine people, dealing with cattle, skins, sinew, horns, wood, etc. and not making composite bow? What was lacking with them? They did not need it? They were happy with an oak branch tied with worn out rope?
I am sure, and nobody will be able to presuade me in opposite, that all Euroasian people knew how to use those raw materials and were clever enough to make composite bows on their own.
I remember one interesting historical happening. Russian Tsar Boris Godunov maintained frendly relations with one of Austrian leaders Archduke Maximillian (don't remember exactly his name and title, correct me, who knows), once sent him a gift - thumbring, made of nephrite, decorated with gold, rubies, turquoise and so on. Accompanied with various other precious items. And no bow.
What it means?
It means that high-ranking Austrians (at least) had composite bows, knew how to use them and knew how to use thumbring. Otherwise this gift is useless and funny.
In Moscow we have Luchnikov Pereulok (Bowmakers' Shortstreet). I think that inhabitants were busy with making composite bows. Other bows are senseless with mounted armed forces.
And if we can make such bows nowdays, why could not our ancestors make them?
Dusan
Wellcom Ris. In the end one from Russia ! We need sombody , like you . Many Atarns are exciting readers "mongolian" literature and trust many "fantastic " teories from the table... :lol:
We need meaning from man who know eastern reality.
Riss Gong
ravenbows wrote:
...we need real life experience. Someone who has taken the hornbow to the forest in bad weather, repeatedly, exposing the bow to the elements and then asking it to perform after that exposure.
To some extent a relatively ordinary life experience may help. One of my friends made a horn bow for himself (merely personal use). As his soul is wide enough and he likes himself so much, he was not saving on sinew... So the bow happened to be a replika of Ulysses bow (remember greek tales of Old Homer :roll: ) Nobody could draw it to full length. Due to keeping in dry room it earned more and more poundage. He, strong enough man, can draw it dozen times, then cure his back for a couple of weeks.
Last summer he took it to Medieval Festival somewhere in forests of the Great Russian Plain. The bow was kept in a tent. It rained, it was hot, the weather was changing and the bow became softer. He was able to shoot more and more without consequenses. The rain was not a problem, the bow appeared to be waterproof enough. It just absorbed necessary moisture.
When he came home, laid the bow in ordinary home conditions. And the bow gained back its strenght. Till next outdoors experience.
Riss Gong
jbl wrote:
Many of the campaigns by Steppe people occured during winter because it was easier for them to cross frozen rivers.
Which exactly campaigns do you mean?
Winters were always the most quiet time. In Russia at least.
jsachers
Well, what we believe and what we can prove are two distinctively different things. One may believe that Germanic craftsmen developed the skills necessary to build composite bows and then did so. But we have no single specimen, no written document, no works of art, NOTHING AT ALL, to prove it. Quite to the contrary, many written sources clearly indicate that the composite bow was always associated with foreign peoples, not with Germanic tribes.
These peoples from the steppes ??Huns, Mongols, Avars, Magyars etc. ??had their own way of fighting, their own battle tactics, that included fast horses with lightly armed riders using short but strong bows. Their enemies, i.e. the Germanic peoples of central or northern Europe, had their own way of fighting that mainly, but not exclusively, relied on the use of the lance, the shield, the sword, poleaxe, mace etc. in a combination of heavy and light cavalry and infantry. Completely different tactics.
The Germanic warriors and craftsmen were not stupid or lazy. They just saw no need to invest hours and hours of labour to produce a weapon they had no specific need for.
Riss ??just in case there has been a misunderstanding, I'm talking about late ancient and early or high medieval times, let's say the 4th to the 13th centuries. Boris Godunov lived and ruled at the end of the 16th century. When the Austrians fought off the Ottoman invasion, they also seized a fair number of Turkish bows that can still be seen on display in the Zeughaus museum in Vienna. By that time, they had long learned the use of the hornbow ? as they already had in the 6th or 7th centuries.
But to use it and to make it are "two different pairs of boots".
And yes, the English archers of Poitiers, Cr?cy, Agincourt were quite happy with their long crooked yew stick and their hemp strings.
ravenbows
RISS GONG.................YOU HAVE SAID ALLOT..............but you have failed to answer my question in search of someone who has used a horn bow in bad weather......extreme cold and wet..........and was able to put meat on the table with it year in and year out.
You mentioned some festival.............much different than the rigors of hunting in the brush.
It sounds like you are answering a question in which you have no experience.
Stephen Selby
Of the many old composite bows I have examined - some dating back to 800BCE - most have survived extraordinarily well. Most damage that I have seen on them was not caused by excessive cold or moisture, but from physical abuse, excessive heat (burning) or insect/rodent attack. Incidentally, hornbows are very nourishing. Rodents and insects love them. :)
Riss Gong
ravenbows wrote:
RISS GONG.................YOU HAVE SAID ALLOT
You mentioned some festival.............much different than the rigors of hunting in the brush.
It sounds like you are answering a question in which you have no experience.
You are right. I have no experience of hunting in a bush. I have to spend a lot of time to get to one and start hunting.
I spent my childhood not far from Siberia - one mountain ridge left to cross.
When I was 11 I made my first flat bow of elm tree. Thanx a lot to Seton Tompson and his books... Just followed the chapter describing how to make an indian bow written for children. If you remember, there were tow boys and one old man-instructor, they also made tipi, and so on.
And started hunting not for food, of course, but because elks where everywhere around in taiga. I don't know what bush is and taiga is more comfortable place for hunting, to my mind. So I cannot help you.
I remember that sometimes if you carry something heavy and go along narrow path, a curious elk will for sure block the way and you have nearly to push him off while he is glazing at you with much interest. You go to gather mushrooms and have to move elk horns, left form winter dinners of wolves... Well, those faraway days, life was much easier. And no need to look for some bushes to get a game... In our bushes you can take some birds and hedgehogs, maybe. My dog usually does this for me.
Next week me and a couple of my friends a going to get a wild boar, if we have luck, because Moscow forests are less copious than northern and eastern taiga.
Now, follow my thoughts, I wll not take my horn bow to take a game in winter. Never in winter. I will keep it till warmer seasons. Why? Guess.
I will take with me Korean composite made of wood and glassfiber. And covered with lacquer. I sustains frost easily. Because it has nothing inside to freeze. No water!
And nobody will make me to experiment with my hornbow, which I've been making nearly for one year. In March will be 12 months exactly. Two times had to dismatle everything and start over again.
About festival outdoors. To spend there 3 or 5 days sometimes (in some specific aspects) is much more dangerous and rigorous than a month of hunting in normal taiga.
Adam Karpowicz
Good luck on your boar hunt, I wish I could join you! I actually hunted with hornbows in wet weather and in the "bush" and even left bows outside in the rain for the night (not ahem.. on purpose) with no problems, other than slight loss of performance which can easily be compensated by adjusting the aim, although even that was not really required for up to 20 yard shots). The bows were leather covered with a coat of paint/varnish. After a day or two like that the bows need drying of course. As to the cold - I do not shoot outside below zero centigrade, because it is very hard on the fingers, so I can not tell what happens in much lower temperatures. Bows are very dry in warm interiors when the weather is cold and gain weight. I suspect the loss of cast compared to summer conditions when taken outside would not be much, if any at all. This requires experimenting.
My favourite reading are old travelogues from the east. I recall a 14th c. (I think it could be 13th?) of western emissaries to the Mongol court, who desperately tried to acquire native Mongol (Tatar) horses to travel in winter through Russia. Apparently only these horses could dig vegetation from under the snow for sustenance, unlike any other breeds and were not bothered by the cold. Travel was not possible at the time without these horses. The "Tatars" were described as wild and tough as the animals themselves who had no trouble to survive in the brutal conditions which was the source of astonishment for the westerners at the time. It is not to say they willingly went out to plunder in the winter, but certainly were not suffering as the French in 1812.
Adam
jsachers
Adam ? might this have been William of Rubruck? Modern reports agree that Mongolian horses are able to survive in harsh conditions in winter. But of course in case of a battle campaign we're talking thousands of horses, not to speak of the men that have to be nourished as well. Looting? Well, you can't expect to come across a village with richly filled barns and cellars every day. I confess I am deeply suspicious as to medieval campaigning in winter ?
Dusan
Boys, you still forget abot "snowball " efect Temudzin army. In fact , original tribes united from Mongolia stepes vith his horses was only 3/10 whool army anad next time maybe lover %.
In other point horse archers was maybe base these arme , but very quickly introduc all modern mashines and rockets etc. from China. Mongols army was most modern army in world in this time. Not only bow...Its out thopic , sorry.
Bede
I believe that Batu Khan took Kiev on the 6th of December on St Nicholas Day in 1240. In Australia, that would be the middle of summer, but in the northern hemisphere it would be winter.
In 1238, the Mongol army had taken Vladimir on February the 8th.
There is an entry in the Baburnama where some of Babur's troops beat some of their enemies because the composite bows could shoot in the extreme cold, but the steel bows of their enemies snapped. The Babarnama is a first hand account by someone who was there in the mountains of Northern India when this happened.
Mongol bows in the time of the Western campaigns were physically smaller than modern ones. They could be kept inside your clothes to warm them up. The moisture content in the sinew should have been low enough not to have posed a serious freezing problem. Adam might be able to tell us the moisture content of a fully cured sinew layer. I tested two of his bows that I have here with a moisture meter and couldn't get a reading. In one way that was interesting because the air here has 68% humidity at the moment so it has not penetrated the leather yet.
Regarding the dates I quoted, anyone reading the original Russian chronicles will have dates that are slightly out because the calendar used then was out of synchronisation with ours.
The Mongols themselves wrote very little about how their bows performed except for occasional record shots and battle descriptions. It was the people they were fighting who made records of their equipment for military reasons.
Adam Karpowicz
I have not looked yet into the issue of freezing etc, but below zero the moisture in the bow does not "freeze", since it is the bound water within the structure of the material, not free water. At equilibrium with the ambient humidity, the bows in very cold temperatures should actually have less moisture, because less water can be held in the air. However, a bow equilibrated at higher humidity and suddenly taken outside below zero may have some of the moisture leaving the structure to cause softening of materials. Fortunately indoor humidity in winter is very low too, so I do not see how this can occur in normal circumstances. The time for full equilibrium for a finished and painted bow would be several days to two weeks.
Adam
Adam Karpowicz
I just recalled the steel crossbow prods in Europe were known to snap in the cold, while the composite prods were still useable. Someone may want to verify this, I may be mistaken.
Adam
Orda Khan
Adam,
I think the account you mention of the journey to the Mongol court, was 'The Story of the Mongols whom we call Tartars' by Friar Giovanni DiPlano Carpini. You are quite right when you mention low humidity in below zero temperatures, it's one of the reasons we get chapped lips.
Riss Gong,
Sorry, to make a statement that Mongols kept their bows wrapped up until warm weather is rewriting every historical account of the Mongol campaigns. As for composite bows (ie sinew, wood, horn) in Europe (prior to those taken during Ottoman campaigns) it would be nice to see some evidence; or do you mean the bows used by the Huns, Avars, Magyars? As far as I know, these are the only examples.
Bede,
Thanks for the dates, there are others as well. The Mongols actually took time out during the warmer months to drill their new prisoners
Riss Gong
jsachers wrote:
Well, what we believe and what we can prove are two distinctively different things. One may believe that Germanic craftsmen developed the skills necessary to build composite bows and then did so. But we have no single specimen, no written document, no works of art, NOTHING AT ALL, to prove it. Quite to the contrary, many written sources clearly indicate that the composite bow was always associated with foreign peoples, not with Germanic tribes.
They just saw no need to invest hours and hours of labour to produce a weapon they had no specific need for.
But to use it and to make it are "two different pairs of boots".
And yes, the English archers of Poitiers, Cr?cy, Agincourt were quite happy with their long crooked yew stick and their hemp strings.
Sorry for a pause. I will try to reply in order of appearence...
About German "tribes". Let's state theises first. Maybe som wouldn't need any arguments.
- Germans were not "tribes". It was well organized army sent to inhabit sparcely populated areas or Europe.
- Origin of these "tribes"? As they came from Russia, they lived in close contact with other "tribes" or Ords (Hords as written currently), i.e. Armies, which actively produced and constantly improved composite bows. So Germans have to live with tightly closed eyes and tied hands not to produce commonly available weapon. Starvation and other sufferings was their destiny. Oh, new "historic" opening! That was the cause why they moved to modern Germany. They could not sustain such deterioration anymore. How they managed to occupy such territories and fight with Roman Legions? To defeat someone you must be at least not worse, and best of all - a bit better than the opponent. No Barbarian tribe had ever defeated any opponent standing at higher rank in culture and technincs. If you believe in opposite - stop reading Tolkien and other "historical annals". Only well organized Army with highly efficient weapon, better tactics and logistics could succeed. By the way, Germans still have this word in their vocabular "Orda"="ordnung'="order". Currently Tartar Ordas are surviving in Russia and some are flourishing. In Russian we call them kazak (cossak) "voisko"="army"="orda". Tartars were named Kazaks for the first time only in 14c chronicles. And only in 19c. some Turk peoples (or tribes) werу called Tatars, to support the "Mongol-Tatar Invasion Fairy Tale". Ironically, the name of Tartars received former Volga Bulgars, who were allegedly first to suffer from that Invasion in Europe. Still need some info about this Greatest Historical Joke? We may make a separate topic and I have some prooves.
- Germans had no need to invest hours and extra labor - they just had it. Otherwise they were eradicated by Romans who possessed already such weapons form Middle East, and their own versions of composite bows. Or they should have lived with closed eyesl, tied hands... ooops. See above. But German bows appeared to be better.
- One more point about tactics: axes, swords, spears, and other white weapons, are designed for show offs at courts, for settling down individual disputes, well maybe to eventually cleanup a battlefield. I talked to may martial art specialist. They all agree, that the only weapon designed for war was bow and arrow. The first weapon of samurais was yumi, only centuries later swords appeared. Do not mistify yourself - the only weapon capable to win a war in the past was bow. Composite. Or longbow. Traditional. And that is why the Englishmen were quite happy at Poitiers, etc. They might be less happy, if French Roi was a bit less prone to technical progress - he just ordered to replace french archers with crossbowers. No further prooves needed.
Good shots!
Riss Gong
Adam Karpowicz wrote:
Good luck on your boar hunt, I wish I could join you!
My favourite reading are old travelogues from the east. I recall a 14th c. (I think it could be 13th?) of western emissaries to the Mongol court, who desperately tried to acquire native Mongol (Tatar) horses to travel in winter through Russia. Apparently only these horses could dig vegetation from under the snow for sustenance, unlike any other breeds and were not bothered by the cold. Travel was not possible at the time without these horses. The "Tatars" were described as wild and tough as the animals themselves who had no trouble to survive in the brutal conditions which was the source of astonishment for the westerners at the time. It is not to say they willingly went out to plunder in the winter, but certainly were not suffering as the French in 1812.
Adam
Thank you for your kind wishes, but here, in Russia, hunters are very superstitious, and getting such wishes they must reply something like "all these wishes should go to hell". The best wish before hunting sounds like "I wish you get neither fur, nor feather". And even this kind wish is sent to above address. Traditions...
The travel of western emissaries to Mongol court may be discussed, if necessary, separately.
But Mongol horses, are quite able to dig relatively thin snow. Deep snows are lethal to them as for other horses. Helas. You should remember that "Monglol-Tartars" during first "visit" to Europe chased their enemies Polovtsy. These Turk people, christians, by the way, lived in steppe and to support their horses collected hay at special locations, covered again snow storms. If one wanted to eliminate these people, he needed to find these strategic supplies of hay and burn it. These horse people would have to migrate to warmer lands. If they had time. But, Polovets horses were of the same breeding as "Mongolian" ones. Actually all steppe peoples from melenhlets to kirgiz and calmuks have the same type of horses. The problem is not with Fairy Horses of Unknown Tribes, the problem is the territory and climate. If you do not want to see guests, just turn away from them and sep aside and mind your business. If they burn some wooden villages - not much harvest they get. The villages will be built again next summer. All the same they burn on their own every year.
Oh, you seem to have some snow in Europe this winter? Find a deep (1-1,5 m) enough place filled with snow and try to dig to the ground, to see some green grass. And late in the evening, drinking beer imagine a horse, equipped with showel to fetch meal for her breakfast, dinner and supper. But "Mongolian Horses" were capable to do much more. Actually it were them, who masterminded and lead the invasion!
But the French in 1812 started suffering much earlier than winter - in July!
Riss Gong
Dusan wrote:
Boys, you still forget abot "snowball " efect Temudzin army. In fact , original tribes united from Mongolia stepes vith his horses was only 3/10 whool army anad next time maybe lover %.
In other point horse archers was maybe base these arme , but very quickly introduc all modern mashines and rockets etc. from China. Mongols army was most modern army in world in this time. Not only bow...Its out thopic , sorry.
I must agree with above! You are completely right. At some points.
But all correct notions are precepted at different angles. Again thesises:
- "Snowball" effect of Jihangir Army. (Jihangir=Vladimir=Lord of the World. And this is not name - this is just job. position.) Temudzin is one of multiple names of some characters of far away days. If you imagine "Mongols" who left their wives and children and property in Mongolian steppes, alone, (only lazy, extremely stupid enemy would not come and take all this in their absence. They a going to the west. All available men, about 200 000 (optimistic estimate), each with extra horse, or two. What happens with steppe? It is just worn and eaten out. They meet some other tribes, which - nothing to do - join them. And food is available only to the first several thousands - the rest have to swallow dust and mud. How far could they get? Or they should spread over vast territories - practically unhabited. Where is ominous army=orda? Leave this fantsy to the followers of Tolkien and modern historians. Snowball effect was lethal for any army and even modern army.
- Horse archers were the striking force of those days armies. The better archers you have - the more probability to make someone else feed the crows. Archers are like multiple rocket launchers of our days. And you are right absolutely - horses cannot take fortified objects. Infantry is needed. Where is nearest infantry? Yes, you are right! In settlements, villages, towns, cities. How to get it? To occupy, oppress, enslave, etc? How would you feel among an army of oppressed heavily armed ex-enemies? Correct. You have to negotiate and agree mutually benefitial cooperation! That is. Here we see so called "Mongolian" Army. And so on.
- China. Just conquered by "Mongol-Tartars". They could teach their oppressors something useful? Do make wall-beating machines and stone throuwing devices? You understand that it is not possible to take them from China to Russia. By train only. Special carriages, etc. You must build them at place. Chinese will build them? Well survivors of long way hardships and constant battle, starvation, deseases, cruel "Mongol-Tartars"... Where would they get wood logs? In taiga? Someone tried to build something considerable of raw logs? Drying needs years. And it would take practically no efforts for local guys to burn materials at any stage of production. And stones. You should bring them along, as well. Or use local workers to fulfil your order prepaid 100%. "Mongols" disappear - and what to do with all those stones? Russian army had such device readily available. They can be met in all chronicles - called "poroki". No need of foreign expertise. It nowaday, that practically everything is made in China.
- So, if you sombine steppe horsemen Armies (they were numerous - Golden, White, Blue, Brown, and so on) with economic resourses and armed forces of Russia - you will get the Great "Mongol" Army (alas, without Mongols) and no need for starving, freezing and building some fantastic devices.
Riss Gong
Bede wrote:
I believe that Batu Khan took Kiev on the 6th of December on St Nicholas Day in 1240. In Australia, that would be the middle of summer, but in the northern hemisphere it would be winter.
In 1238, the Mongol army had taken Vladimir on February the 8th.
The only explanation of these events is that these were internal clashes and "restauration of constituional order" of those days. So called "Mongol-Tartar" Army had nearby bases, nutrition, wall-breaking devices, poroki, infantry in abundance. According to chronicles suffered most of all southern regions of Russia. Why? Politics... Dynasty or rights of succession? Who knows. The authors also were paid by this or that side.
Vladimir - well Vladimir-Souzdal Zemlya had several hundred towns. Loss of one - even capital meant nothing to the country as a whole. This looks like removing some enemies before starting to the West.
About composite bow in the frost. I do not wont to risk my only natural bow. In a couple of years, if everything goes well, I will have a couple more comparable bows. I may sacrifice one, if it is still necessary. But now, when I try to shoot outdoors, I feel that in several minutes the bow becomes more slow.
jbl
I think the reason why you see many cities fell during the winter to the Mongols has much to do with their mobility IMPROVING during the winter because the rivers, swamps, and marshes were frozen. This made it easier for a "horse" army to travel. I also believe it shows that the cold did not adversly effect the composite bow. Would it be "stiffer" in the winter and need to be acclimated to the weather? Yes just like any living thing.
Dusan
i litlle chating in russian sites and find one interestinf petroglif. (sorry again for mi english. I will try translate.)
This petroglifs was found in the rocks near the Ienisej -Tura river- Krasnoiarsk region. Its dating about 300-200 b.c. In this region known old fables about "horse people" archers.This fable says that her live people who was from knee to the head man but from knee down like horse legs vith fure , and runing in snow likw horse.
Behind this fantasy fable can be a real skier kamus archer who have glued in ski "kamus" .
Kamus is skin from elk or moose leg. Fur from leg was very strong. If you glued this skin in ski vith right fur orientation , you can walk or skiing , but dont slide back.
Interesting petroglif show us composite like bow use very efektivly in winter.
Alan Flashing
Isn't there a fable about a Nordic skier/archer called Uller?
Alan
Dusan
If he sking in Ienisei river :lol: .
But you must know that all north european nations (vikings , germans, ...) was from asia . Isn it ?
Stephen Selby
I remember this about steppe ponies (re. Riss Kong's comment): They'll take you anywhere in freezing weather; but if they get into a snow drift and can't move their legs freely, you have to beat them cruelly to stop then lying down and giving up the ghost.
That's got rather far from freezing bows. In Ulaanbaatar, they say that the risk to bows in extreme cold is drying out, not freezing (re. Adam's comment.) So they store their bows in the (frozen) meat safe during the winter months.
jsachers
Riss Gong wrote:
About German "tribes". Let's state theises first. Maybe som wouldn't need any arguments.
- Germans were not "tribes". It was well organized army sent to inhabit sparcely populated areas or Europe.
Sent? By whom?
"Germans" is a term coined by Roman writers like Julius Caesar to describe certain tribes living east of the river Rhine whose culture differed markedly from the (well known) Celts in the west. They themselves did not consider themselves to be "Germans" but rather Suebes, Alamans, Herules etc. Those were comparatively small groups of people from different origins gathering "under the banner" of charismatic leaders. In the course of the centuries (from the middle of the 1st millenium BC to ca. the 4th century AD) these tribes mixed, separated, new ones developed, and each had its own distinct culture, rituals, burial rites, and even language, although they all spoke variants belonging to the Germanic grop of languages, as opposed to the Celtic or Slavic groups.
- Origin of these "tribes"? As they came from Russia, they lived in close contact with other "tribes" or Ords (Hords as written currently), i.e. Armies, which actively produced and constantly improved composite bows. So Germans have to live with tightly closed eyes and tied hands not to produce commonly available weapon.
The Germanic peoples came from Russia? Maybe you should publish that thesis and become famous.
On the other hand, the scientific world wants facts and proof ?
- One more point about tactics: axes, swords, spears, and other white weapons, are designed for show offs at courts, for settling down individual disputes, well maybe to eventually cleanup a battlefield. I talked to may martial art specialist. They all agree, that the only weapon designed for war was bow and arrow. The first weapon of samurais was yumi, only centuries later swords appeared. Do not mistify yourself - the only weapon capable to win a war in the past was bow. !
The Greek Hoplites might be interested to hear that they couldn't have won the battles they won against the Persian archers with their lances, swords and shields. And the English eventually lost the Hundred Years War ?
But anyway, I feel we have strayed far enough from the topic of this thread which was about the draw, not about battle tactics or the like. And after all, this is the Asian Traditional Archery Research Network forum -?not the place to discuss the origins of the Germanic peoples. I for one will let the matter rest there and return to my "fantasy authors" like Tacitus, Caesar, Vegetius, Gregor of Tours, Isidor of Sevilla, Widukind of Corvey, and others. And to the archaeological finds and sources.
jsachers
Alan Flashing wrote:
Isn't there a fable about a Nordic skier/archer called Uller?
Alan
Thank you - interesting . Its demonstrate to me , that same source kulture and nation this people.
In another point its say more about your and Riss thema. I mean that here is no dubt about origin all germans tribs.
Litlle about term "german" . You are right about diferent tribes like Suebes , Alaman , Herules and some diferences between his language. But i mean that language dif. was no so big. Maybe like between Slaws lanuage. Vithout big problems we understand eych other to this days. Term "german" to me is very charakteristic for this people. If i dont mistake Man is germanic word - use in anglosas language too. Her is too uceful word vith interesting history - because this is oldest variation for "man" and in same time signify male penis- what is old mans simbol... :D Ispecialy in hunters -salvage people.
You can found this word in this tribe names for ex.- HER ules, Ala MAN...
In many places in Europe stay big rocks like statue and people meaning about his misteriouz simbolizm. His name is MANHIR, or dolMAN its say all...
But you are right thisis out of topic .
Riss Gong
Sorry, very busy now, will reply asap.
For now: wasser=water=voda
essen=eat=est'
and so on.
mongolianarcher
Ravenbows,
I can answer your question, Jaap Koppedrayer puts urushi on his hornbows, and they can resist total immersion in water, so if that helps.... talk to him.
Dusan
Hm... I interesting about urushi some time ago . Urushi have super charakteristic , but his flexibility is lower than we need.
ravenbows
Mongolarcher..........I will check it out. Perhaps get a hold of Mr. Kopperdrayer.
Bede
I doubt this is the place to discuss linguistics or history. We have gone a long way from the topic.
If you look up a linguistics textbook, you will find that while there are common origins to many words in Indo-European languages, like English, German, Norwegian and Russian, the process is not as simple as it first seems. There is little in common with the Altaic languages like Turkish and Mongolian, but there are borrowing and coincidental sounds to explain other things like the word in English, horde, which was adopted from the Mongol usage which ultimately comes from a Turkish word. Order (Eng.) and ordnung (Ger.) are Indo-European words of completely different origin for the Turkish word. "Man" is a common three letter word that occurs independently in many unrelated languages. Menhir comes from the Breton Men = stone and Hir = long. Dolmen comes from Cornish where it means hole of a stone. These are two examples of Indo-European languages that are related (Cornish and Breton were to Celtic languages spoken on opposite sides of the English Channel) and which had a similar word for stone (men) but did not use it for the same concept as English or German man.
The main evidence of the details of the Mongol invasion of Russia under Batu comes from Russian and Middle Eastern histories. I mentioned two towns that were destroyed, but of course there were many more. Since I am not a history teacher and this is not a linguistic forum, I will leave it to you to find out more if you wish.
Riss Gong
Stephen Selby wrote:
That's got rather far from freezing bows. In Ulaanbaatar, they say that the risk to bows in extreme cold is drying out, not freezing (re. Adam's comment.) So they store their bows in the (frozen) meat safe during the winter months.
Yes, I meant that they store thier bows in the same yurta (thick felt tent) where they store meat in winter. But it is much warmer inside than outside. And they store their bows there till spring (if I am not misinformed).
Dusan
Bede you are right. This is out of topic . Maybe no in Atarnet. But we here often talked about histori . Language and his changes is most helpful how we can research history.Especialy very old history , because we hevnt nothing more.Your position coresponding vith oficial tudays teori.
In "indo europeans " language group , i see 30-50% slavs "satem"source introdution to asiatic hunters "kentum" language.Maybe more.
If you believe that sombody make very hardly big stone statue - clearly looks like religious thing- and next call him only " big -or long stone" ... its your choice. We todays know that all over the world hunters -Homo sapiens -tribes (and Celts was very tipical example migrated from Afrika in 3000 b.c.) have most important god - falus.
Maybe you dont know about this , but all pillars construct in oficial buildings to this days was from oldest tousand years - big falus. Only from grekoroman era was latent in artistic simbolism .And we call him - "big pillar"... History is somtime funny. :D
Riss Gong
About horn bow and winter: I was so stupid to continue testing my bow outside. At -7Centigrades it works normally. And I do not expose it to frost for the time longer than needed to shoot 7 arrows, collect them and shoot 7 arrows one more time. Below -10Centigrades the efficiency of the bow starts to decline. And I am afraid, this curve is not sweep, it grows more and more steep. The lower temperature - the faster drop down. It is up to you to make your opinion - what does it mean.
The hornbow, mine bow at least, is sealed completely. Layers of sinew glue, goat skin (very thin one), again grounding with sinew glue, some gluten lacquer, covered with painting and lacquered again. (Now I washed off the decorative painting, want to draw something better, left only grounding (priming) and the bow became faster and obviously with less poundage.) So it cannot loose considerable amount of moisture under any conditions. Water and ambient pressure are sealed inside. If you do not brake the sealing coating, it will keep modern water and air for ages (theoretically). If you take it to open outer space it will explode due to atmospheric pressure inside sealed inside. Biden or not biden water, I guess it freezes sooner or later. Cow carcasses are frozen to stone state at -18 Centigrades, meat and sinew as well. And this temperature is considered normal, even warm in Siberia, Urals and the most part of Central Russia
To Dusan:
"Interesting petroglif show us composite like bow use very efektivly in winter.. "
Thank you for your help. If you see my post you will see that I wrote, that in winter should be used bows different from Mong horn bows. Our Northern peoples do not use horn but make composites of different sorts of wood and other stuff. The same was in Northern parts of Russia, in Finland and others. They contained much less sinew and practically no animal products. That are the bows you seen on the petroglifs. If I get more info on such bow I will place it somewhere at this forum.
Riss , good looking "light" bow. You are first or second archer ? Short draw lenght.
About Siberian , Finland or "slaws" bows from wood composites we know . If sinew working in this bows - why dont in horn bows ? This bows was gluening vith animal glue, like hornbows , most has sinew gluening lyer like hornbows.( In deep north was sinew only binding.)
You think that material who have problem vith cold wether was horn ?
PjSingh
Dusan,
I believe you to be correct in assuming that horn does not work in winter.
My friends bow blew up in winter.This is an all horn bow,the bow was shooting 240 fps@ 28 inches of draw and it was an 75 # bow.the arrow arc in summer at 40 yards was 5 inches and in winter was almost 2.5 feet at the same distance.and this was in a relatively mild ohio winter.
Riss Gong
PjSingh wrote:
Dusan,
I believe you to be correct in assuming that horn does not work in winter.
My friends bow blew up in winter.This is an all horn bow,the bow was shooting 240 fps@ 28 inches of draw and it was an 75 # bow.the arrow arc in summer at 40 yards was 5 inches and in winter was almost 2.5 feet at the same distance.and this was in a relatively mild ohio winter.
That is! What I tried to state, well, during previous week.
Thank you.
Much help.
Need not to break mine to proove obvious.
Riss Gong
Dusan wrote:
Riss , good looking "light" bow. You are first or second archer ? Short draw lenght.
You think that material who have problem vith cold wether was horn ?
I'm the second shooter. :D
Draw lenght is short because I am just started to train the bow to shoot. It is brand new. Now it is possible to draw farther.
What do you mean by "light" bow? Poundage? How much is it you think?
About northern bows: sinew, as it might be, was used in less amount, than in hornbows. Possibly it was more dry. And horn really becomes too fragile under cold weather. I guess that -18 Centigrades (any refrigerator produces such cold in freezing chamber. Any one can test a peace of horn plate - freeze it and try to bend...).
And see previous message.
Hermitking
This is news to me about horn's fagility in cold.
I was under the impression that Mongols were adapted to cold dry climate and their bows were like them, adapted. Perhaps having the bow sheathed against the hot body of a working horse kept the bow slightly warmer and mitigated the cold/horn issue.
Maybe the cold issue is the reason why later Mongol bows were longer than the early ones. As they became more of an organized military culture, the bow needed to be ready at all times in case of rapid mobization, whereas in subsistence days they used their bows in certian seasons and refrained in cold seasons if possible.
Is there a difference in cold resistence between ibex horn and water buffalo horn?
ravenbows
Hermitking wrote:
This is news to me about horn's fagility in cold.
I was under the impression that Mongols were adapted to cold dry climate and their bows were like them, adapted. Perhaps having the bow sheathed against the hot body of a working horse kept the bow slightly warmer and mitigated the cold/horn issue.
Maybe the cold issue is the reason why later Mongol bows were longer than the early ones. As they became more of an organized military culture, the bow needed to be ready at all times in case of rapid mobization, whereas in subsistence days they used their bows in certian seasons and refrained in cold seasons if possible.
Is there a difference in cold resistence between ibex horn and water buffalo horn?
Hermit,
You would be a good one based on your location to give us insights into this topic. What has been your experience?
Are you able to hunt with the bows that you make in that climate?
What a great point! I was not aware that the length of bows had changed. Subsistinence does require a different set of skills than warfare.
KenH
This brings up something I've wondered about.
All sorts of builders today are using horn from Water Buffalo, which are basically a warm climate animal. Is it actually "written" that the Mongols, or Scythians for example, who definitely did not come from warm climates used horn from Water Buffalo in making their bows? Did the Persians use Ibex or Mountain Sheep horn instead? Or does the archeological record just show "horn" and not from what species of animal?? I'm sure there are huge differences between the horn of Ibex, Mountain Sheep of several species, goats and other horned (not antlered) animals across the huge expanse of Asia.
Would the Mongols, Chinese etc have used a wide variety of horn depending on local availability? I should think so. Needless to say, who was using what kind of horn under which climatological conditions would greatly affect bow stability, strength and lifespan.
Hermitking
Ravenbows, "Are you able to hunt with the bows that you make in that climate?"
Frankly I don't shoot any bow when it gets too cold to grasp the string. At about 20-30 below F. pulling a bowstring becomes VERY unpleasant, and shooting with a big beaver fur mit just doesn't work. I would be willing to shoot in such temps a few shots at best and only in extreem need.
Above zero temps don't seem to affect the wood bellied sinew bows all that much, but how horn holds up is unknown to me since I never used my horn bow in alaska (it was damaged in storage by a leaky roof before I moved here). I have seen an artical about a hunter using an osage orange bow in the far northern arctic on a guided hunt for musk ox. He was worried about his bow breaking but it held up good and killed the beast in one shot.
You also mentioned, "I was not aware that the length of bows had changed." Yep, it seems as though the Mongolians used a slightly shorter bow in the early days, before later conquests. Some have suggested that the present form of the mongolian bow is derived from the larger Chinese bows such as used by the Manchu. Warfare dictated that they needed armor peircing power. That in combination with the cold effecting horn durability may have dictated longer less strained bow designs, shooting heavier arrows.
I have seen several silk paintings that depict mongols using a bow that was closer to 55" and the crimean tartar bows were often in the low 60's.
KenH also specualtes about the differences in horn quality per climate situations. I remembre that Charles Grayson had some eskimo bows that were made of sections of horn pinned and tied together with a wood core and cable backing. What kind of horn it was I know not. But musk ox was available to them. I think even sections of bone were used in a similar manner. Perhaps horn can work if strained to a lesser arc.
It just seems odd to think of Mongolians using horn bows, when horn is not durable in cold climate. The only conclusion I can draw is that ibex mus tbe different than water buffalo.
Hermitking
Since we are talking about draw length and it has led into the discussion of changing bow length for cold climate durability, I thought I would point out that the Turkish bow may have been much different in earlier days.
I have a xerox printout of a very accurate painting of a Turkish Sultan. I can't remember thetime period, bu tit clearly depicts him using a bow that looks to me like a Crimean Tartar bow about 60-64 inches long, drawing all the way back to the ear.
The picture is highly realistic in the bodily proportions and shooting posture and the bow is very detailed in its proportions. For that reason I don't think it is a charicature of the real thing. Anyway, the bow has a pretty obvious reflex at the handle like most Mongolian bows I have seen. We generally see only the very short Turkish bows with a handle bulb being the farthest forward portion of the bow, rather than a reflexed handle. So this picture I have is an oddity that suggests that other bow patterns were at least dabbled in, if not used in the military.
jbl
Hermit I think I have seen the same picture and would match what many writers have said regarding the evolution of the Turkish bow. Many believe the bows of the Ottoman Janniseries were large like the Tatar or Mongols and did not become smaller until after the "hay day" of the War bow.
Dusan
Now i work with ibex horn and european Muflon horn (i think it close to mountain goat ) . its VERY diference mechanical quality than water buf. horn.If its working dif. in cold weather now i cant say but we will see...
This is good point that if we try reconstructed old mongol bow , we must work vith ibex horn. Only this way give us more relevant data.
Riss Gong
Dusan wrote:
Now i work with ibex horn and european Muflon horn (i think it close to mountain goat ) . its VERY diference mechanical quality than water buf. horn.If its working dif. in cold weather now i cant say but we will see...
I used to indian cow horn to be glued on the wooden base.
It holds the cold nice, but it becomes slow below -10 Centigrades.
Mountain sheep/goat horns were always main and beloved material for the Mongol/Buryat and Tungus/Manchu bows.
This horn works much better than water buffalo horn. It is far much better, do not even compare.
Asafan
Riss Gong wrote:
I used to indian cow horn to be glued on the wooden base.
It holds the cold nice, but it becomes slow below -10 Centigrades.
Mountain sheep/goat horns were always main and beloved material for the Mongol/Buryat and Tungus/Manchu bows.
This horn works much better than water buffalo horn. It is far much better, do not even compare.
And of whose horns did bows ancient Russian bows in 10 century? In 13?
Dusan
I believe in 2 variation russians (composite) bows.
1 : is north stile bow vithout horn . this design is from east siberia to Finland in many variation.(north russia)
2 : is mongol /central asia hornbow predominantly vith Ibex - mountain goat horns. (kievska rus, Kosacs...)
Today we work predominantli vith water buff horns , becuse its most comon material(still its big problem buy a good one...) .
I dream abou ibex and mountain goat horns , but in central Europe its very dificult . This animals wasnt domesticate :cry:
Ashbow
Hermitking wrote:
I remembre that Charles Grayson had some eskimo bows that were made of sections of horn pinned and tied together with a wood core and cable backing. What kind of horn it was I know not.
Hermitking,
In the June/July 2007 issue of the ?Primitive Archer? magazine there is an article ?A Greenland Bow? by Charles Grayson. The bow covered in the article is made of two pieces of baleen ?stitched? together (no glue was used), sinew cable backing, no wooden core though.
Bede
The horn was small sections of musk ox horn.
Hermitking
If I could get a pair of musk ox horns I would give them a try as a bow belly. They are very short and tightly curved but it appears as though they curve only on one plane, thus twisting is not a problem. I think I would try the channel method of gluing the horn strips on.
I saw a fellow in an artical chisel out a channel in the wooden core of the bow, leaving raised wood sides that lap on to the sides of the horn strips. This seems to me to be a solution to keeping the horn in place while gluing and wrapping. It also makes it possible to use shorter peices of horn on the belly, for the belly on the limbs near the siyahs is barely stressed, and does not need the same compression strength that midlimb does.
I would also try to cut the siyah end of the horn strip in a half circle profile to fit in a half circle shaped end on the channel. The butt splicing of horn always makes me nervous about breaking the bow when stressed backwards.
Another idea I thought of was whale rib bone strips. Eskimos regularly harvest whales and surely whale ribs are a common item among them. Some should reach 3 foot lengths or more, providing material for belly strips. Rib bones are far more elastic than other bones of the body. I've flexed moose rib bones almost 4 degrees without them breaking. With a wooden nuetral zone of the core and heavy sinew absorbing the tension I think it might actually work. Now I jsut have to hook up with some whale ribs.
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