Yanghai (Scythian) bow weight tested

Adam, congratulations! That sounds like big success.

Although the arrows have been long, I cannot imagine the Scyths drawing such a heavy stacking bow to or behind the ears on horseback.

It seems logic that the development of the Hun bow occured mainly because of reducing stack?

Would like to see pictures of that bow....

Best regards, JJ

Thanks. I said stacking, because there is a slight upturn in the curve, but it is not anything dramatic, and may not even be felt by the archer. Something similar to drawing a Korean bow to 30+ inches or another shorter composite.

Adam

Adam, Yes, congratulations. My bow is still way out there. I have never worked on such small sticks for so long, ever.

What kind of wood did you end up using? What kind of horn? -j-

Adam, look forward to seeing it when you are finished.
Alan

Thanks Jack. The horn is water buff with one splice close to tips (for the vert. horn). The core is a combination of birch and maple (birch for the recurves, maple for the deflexed limbs and birch root for the grip). As I explained in another post, even if ibex horn was drastically different in mechanical properties, the draw weight would be affected by only a small percentage.

By the way, the bow has not been seasoned, actually I braced it about a week after the last layer of sinew. This partly explains the string follow (which I wanted for safety). It means the bow's weight is not exaggerated. My apologies for coming up again with these monster bows, but once the original dimensins are faithfully followed, there is no turning back. I would estimate the bows of this style could vary between 80 and 140lb weight @ 28in, since not all were so thick I am sure. It is possible the bows were underdrawn in use depending on the circumstances and the need.

Adam

Awesome, again, Adam! I'm not surpriced by the draw weight at all. Anyone using a bow for more than recreational use and hunting would see the advantage of piercing clothes/etc properly. Looking very much forward to the pictures! Wohoo :D

Judging by the size of Scythian arrow heads I am more sceptical about the need for armour piercing qualities. I'm sure I've read accounts of Scythians drawing to the chest, which would reduce the weight considerably. It will be interesting to find out how this bow performs.

It was likely range that they were looking for rather than armor piercing ability. There is that record of a 500m shot by a Scythian archer and a bow of that design should be able to do it .

I do not think that drastic would be too great an exaggeration describing the difference between Water Buffalo and Ibex horn. This is a cold bend on a scrap of Ibex.

It would not be too hard to do with buff horn if sufficiently fresh or humid. I had a piece of sheep horn which was very elastic for a long time after harvest, but gained stiffness to become like w. buff horn eventually. Horn keratin should be quite reactive chemically and could crosslink in time depending on conditions.

Adam

Regarding draw length, the western Scythians used very small bows and 55-60 cm arrows in general. There are longer bows depicted in Greek pottery with people drawing to the ear. It is likely that the bows from Xinjiang were of the long draw type. The gorytoi are made for much longer arrows, the bows are longer and the arrows also seem to be longer.

A friend of mine gave me some bronze replica Scythian arrowheads and they were both aerodynamic and would have been effective against the types of armour available at the time. The short drawn arrows would still have had a range of about 200 metres and the small cross-sectional area would have guaranteed penetration. Larger bows and longer arrows would have been more effective, but until armour improved the small light arrows were deadly.

Many thanks for work, Adam! It is very interesting, how work limbs in your replica, it is possible to show a photo at a draw?

How to post a picture larger than 256K?

Adam

Adam ,use this free hosting

[external image]

(teraz po polsky. Moj angielsky jest bardzo slaby ).Jak kliknes na risunek otvorzi sie ti free hosting okno , to klikni na "bezplatn? hosting obr?zků", potem klikni na " Choose file" - vybieras svoje zdiencie- potvierdzas . puzniej klikas na "ulo?it obr?zek/ky" i zdiencie sie pojavuje i s kodem stiongas kod v krane " --- K?D PRO VLO?EN? DO F?RA/BBCODE ---(ctrl C) i vkladas do textu odpoviedzi (ctrl V) . To vsistko. Tiesie sie na zdiencia.

Is there any page on this forum or on the net that include structure or reconstruction of the Scythian bows?

Thanks Dusan, I suppose I could use photobucket too. I am not sure how this forum works though, I understand the limit is 200MB per user. I doubt I have used that much space for my uploads.

Adam

Hcspng; Go back to Hardware subject and go down 11 topics to Scythian type bows from Yanghai. We have all been amazed by Stephen's post.

Adam; just learn how to resize a photo. Manage your limit through your listing on the membership list. It lists your current availability. A link below your name shows where all your images are and their volume.

I am constantly deleting to make room for my copious new posts. Stephen used to save good images, stored above in Image Album, but much good stuff has gone away. He probably needs help from members, which was not forthcoming, I assume.

Bede; There is a clear difference between Eastern (so far, Xinjiang, China, and Siberia) Scythian archery gear and Western (Black Sea area, and Russia).

First of all, western material appears mostly to be the result of treasure hunting in royal Scythiian kurgans. The only things never found in large Kurgan burials are gold crowns and bows. I attribute this to the story in Herodotus about how Hercules' youngest son comes to own his bow and Kingship of Scythia. Therefore the bow of a Scythian king could not be buried because the lineage would end.

Eastern material comes from graves of commoners buried side by side and not in kurgans, The easterners are also warriors to a man but have no nation to pass to their sons. They must have thought a bow would come in handy for the deceased as everyone is buried with his, and strung, ready to fight!

Eastern bows, judging from the bowcases are more robust than western and the arrows much more so. The SRMS Scythian arrows were approximately 28 inches in length and stout like those of other cultures.

Nor can we say that armor was not well developed in the late bronze and iron ages. Entire suits of scale armor have been found. We do not know how prevalent armor was, though. Typically small arrow points indicate armored targets. The points are looking for a small opening.

These are just some comments and are not meant to refute anything you have stated. Jack

Thanks Jack. I have only filled 9% of my quota and still the size limit for the attachment is 256K... There should be plenty of room for a 900K picture.

Adam

I hope it works...

It did. The bow has even tiller (both limbs are about the same max. distance from the string). It may be disputable, but I think it is probably true, since most old bows have a sharper bend/string follow in the lower (shorter) limb, even though assymetrical. The brace height is a little over 7 inches. Note how narrow the limbs are at the deflexed sections. I will post pictures of the bow drawn once it is fully dried after the sinew wrapping.

Adam

Adam:

Snew wraping is typical for Scythian bow? Very good looking bow.

Cem

Yes, looks very good, Adam.

jack farrell wrote:

Entire suits of scale armor have been found.

I'd suggest armour of this sort would be far more likely to be the possession of upper class elite few, rather than the common many, just as in later mediaeval armies. The common soldier would be more likely protected by toughened leather or any suitable item that he could acquire on the battlefield. Some Scythian shields were simple wood and leather constructions.

Thanks. Yes the bows were wrapped twice in sinew. I found it improved stability (torsional resistance) which is quite important for a bow so narrow in the limbs.

Adam

Very cool!! :shock: :D

The bow is made with exact measurements from the documented original? - and is having most of the bend in the narrow deflexed sections? Normally any narrow section should bend less than the rest of the bow. Could there be any technical relation between the deflexing and them being able to take all the bend, despite how narrow these sections are? If they really were bending like that, there must be an interesting reason for it :) Any thoughts on that?

Does the original show how thick the horn is along the bows length?

Can't wait for more pictures!

Yes, the bow's dimensions follow the measurements by Stephen in his drawing. But most of the bend does not happen in the deflexed section. The bow flexes within about 2/3 of its length: the grip plus the deflexed sections up to about the mid limb. There is very little flexing in the outer recurved halfs of limbs and in the tips. It is nor absolutely certain if all such bows behaved like that, because some of them seem to have more string follow in the outer limbs too, indicating stress there as well. Nevertheless, the outer half of limb does not move much if at all in this bow. Since the bow bends mostly in the central parts, which are about the same thickness, and really quite thick by the standard of the hornbows, one can expect fairly good efficiency. I am not at the stage I can test for performance as yet to find out.

I tried to follow the thickness of horn as in the drawings, but bear in mind small differences will not show much.

Adam

Say never no!
Adam, I guess your great work has convinced me, that the Subeixi- bow is a working bow.
I know more than any other how delicious it is to make such a complex bow.

Do you really want it to draw it to 28"?
I told you, that about 90% of all the arrow- findings I ?ve examined in Siberia are in the 26"- range. I?m afraid of over- stressing this bow.

You stated that the grip- section is bending. So, is the bow done with a spliced- in- handle, as it is posted in Stephen?s recordings?

Michael

According to Stephen, the arrows were up to 81cm long (32"). I estimated other arrows on a different picture to be from 28" to 30". From that I assume the bows could be drawn from 28 to 32". Bear in mind this is an eastern Scythian bow of the longer kind. The length betw the nocks is 131cm (almost 52"). For a hornbow of such length the draw length is greater and 30" should be no problem. I have already pulled the bow to 28", but I hesitate to go farther, at least for now. The limbs are spliced to the grip, so the bow flexes through the splice.

Adam

Jack,
I don't follow you. The bows preserved in Xinjiang are mostly from shallower graves, which were associated with poorer people, but their presence is assumed in in richer burials. The deeper burials resulted in the destruction of organic material due to the increased moisture in the deeper layers of the soil.

There are some bows in Scythian burials in the west though they are fragmentary. There were probably bows in the Pazyryk tombs too, but like the Royal Scythian burials they were robbed in antiquity. There are some Scythian style tombs that have been found intact in Central Asia. The body was buried with full equipment, including gorytos, bow arrows and sword. Gold hats (maybe crowns) were also found.

Most Western Scythian gold and electrum gorytos covers probably were still attached to the gorytos when they were buried. Often they were found with piles of bronze arrow heads.

I agree that armour was used by the Scythians. The Metropolitan Museum of Art acquired a nice leather scale corselet and archaeologists have excavated many man and horse armours in Scythian tombs. They would have provided some protection from light western Scythian arrows at long and medium range, but up close there were targets that could be reached.

I think that the Xinjiang equipment is a later development to shoot heavier arrows more effectively. As I wrote before, there is pictorial evidence that longer draws were also used in the West with larger Scythian bows. This probably happened because the tribes themselves started to wear more armour as they became richer. The Pazyryk tombs represent an intermediate period. The arrows found there were reconstructed at about 80 cm long. By the time the Dahae tribes founded the Parthian kingdom in Iran, the large bow and gorytos were normal in Central Asia.

I am not sure that Herodotos' story is relevant. The boy was anointed as Heracles's son because he could lift the rock and string the bow; signs of strength and skill. I am sure that no Scythian king had only one bow.

It was the Huns who liked giving their Germanic allies non-functional gold covered bows. It is true that both the Parthians and Scythians depicted the king holding a bow on their coins, but it a long way from that to say that they would forfeit their kingship by burying a bow in the tomb.

Bede; My thesis is that Eastern Scythian bows and arrows were larger in general than their Western equivalents, and the sources of the finds differ by the richness of the graves. But we may assume that this represented archery traditions not divided by social class.

I do not recall any image of a Scythian king wearing a crown. Davis-Kimball refutes that gold headgear belonged to males. By the time this became well published, the authors had too much invested to retract. This is female headgear found in warrior women tombs.

Herodotus' story is more than relevant it is archetypal. Allowing sons to compete for the throne was the major factor ending the Mongol Empire ninteen centuries later, Morris Rossabi.

I believe that it was Rudenko who pointed out that Russians excavated 2000 kurgan burials without finding a bow; gorytus, yes, arrows, arrowpoints, yes; bow, no. The bow represented the authority of the father.

Ada: nice to see these first pics of the competed project.

How do you reckon these bows were gripped? That has always been the biggest mystery for me.

Jack, Bede. The Yanghai burials were on a dried inland sea bed where deep digging encounters a pebble layer. Probably none of the burials was very deep, regardless of the class of the grave-owner.

Stephen and all; I found two illustrations. One Scythian bronze from Kazakhstan appears to show a rider gripping below the central reflex with the small limb up. (Of Gold and Grass, p 125)

Another of Greek workmanship shows two Thracians with Scythian bows doing the same (From the Land of the Scythians, plate 80). Copyright considerations make it inadvisable to post here. I did publish the Thracians in the proceedings of WTAF 2009 for those with a copy. This complied with Korean provisions.

My interpretation will have some controversy because of the quality of the works and the photography.

There are few Scythian works showing an archer drawing a bow.

Jack,
I agree with the idea that the larger bows were a Central Asian development in the Scythian pattern. What I was suggesting is that it moved west fairly quickly because the evidence of the depiction of bows in Attic pottery.

The nature of the graves probably is more related to preservation and chance discovery. Different conditions preserve materials differently. S. I. Rudenko died in 1969. At that stage very few intact bows had been found anywhere outside of Egypt. He was most disappointed at Pazyryk because of the absence of bows. But all the tombs he investigated were previously robbed. That was the method by which water entered the burial chamber and froze thus preserving the bodies.

Regarding crowns, perhaps I was imprecise. Royal head coverings for men among the Scythians appear to be just a form of their normal hats. Davis-Kimball provided some very interesting information on female burials, particular of archers. The headgear that was originally called a crown by archaeologists in the "Golden Man" burial looks like it was just a richer version of special female headdresses.

Most steppe peoples who formed large states had issues with inheritance, not just the Mongols. Primogeniture was unknown. The most likely successor was the next eldest brother of the same generation. Chinggis Khan apparently nominated his third son, ?gedei, while he was still alive, but by the time of M?ngke the Khanate was transferred to Khubilai his brother on his death. Despite agreeing with you about that, I cannot see how something that is possibly archetypical about success in inheritance is relevant to burying bows with kings.

When I first became interested in these bows, there was little information except the Soviet excavations. When I read Rudenko's book on Pazyryk, the first thing I looked for was evidence of bows. It was unfortunate that they didn't survive. It seemed that anything near the bodies was stolen if it could be taken out of the tomb. The arrows were apparently broken to retrieve the bronze arrowheads. I spoke many years ago with another archaeologist who was working on frozen tombs and he said that they had found some bows since Rudenko's time. Perhaps it was a mistake in translation.

jack farrell wrote:

Stephen and all; I found two illustrations. One Scythian bronze from Kazakhstan appears to show a rider gripping below the central reflex with the small limb up. (Of Gold and Grass, p 125)

I have seen such a depiction, too. I do not have a picture because it was not allowed to take pictures. The exhibition was called "Das Gold der Steppe". I can't find the notes I took, but I am pretty sure that the piece I saw was from the Ukraine Museum of National History (or similar).

I have tried to draw the bow by hand a few times (nowhere near the full draw!) and the apex of the grip reflex is without a doubt the natural place to hold the bow. I will try again, but I am quite certain the gripping above or below will be very uncomfortable. Perhaps the leather wrapping on one of the Yanghai bows above the grip curve is the arrow pass?

Adam

It would be counterintuitive that the bow would not be gripped at the center of the reflex. It also seems counterintuitive that the small limb would be up. The construction seems wrong, and the curvature also does not make much sense.

There we have it- a Scythian bow!

Adam and Jack must be right. Why would you put all that setback in if you were not going to take advantage of it? The most popular composite bow prior to the Scythian was the angular composite, which was used on foot, in chariots and on horseback. Why go to all the trouble of adding all those curves if you did not make use of them? One of the things that will be testable with the building of these bows is the performance compared with the older angular bows. Maybe we will see an advantage.

An odd bow it is!

It does indeed seem illogical to grip it anywhere but the setback grip.

As for artwork depicting Scythians gripping the bow below the center, I wonder could have been made by artists who were unaware of how these bows were gripped? Most people think the arrow goes in the center of a bow, so it has to be gripped below that. In my introductory lessons I see first-timers grip Asian style bows below the handle all the time.

Perhaps one artist started this misconception and others just copied it until it became a widespread notion.

-Peter

Is that what we're talking about?

http://de.academic.ru/pictures/dewiki/68/Darius_III.jpg

I've got a nice picture of the Subeixi bow copied into that illustration (the so called "Alexander Mosaic) in exactly the same size and position. Unfortunately I can't post it here due to copyright restrictions.

Jan; This is exactly what I mean. You can see that the sharp bend is above his hand and the gentle bend (the long limb) would be below. He grips below the apex of the reflex.

What I was looking for was a Scythian depicting a Scythian drawing a bow. The Kazakh bronze is just such a depiction.

Peter; Ancient artwork should be taken for what it is. We are just now discovering what a real Scythian (and other) bows really are. It would seem a bit condescending to say that they do not know how they were used. What use would we have for an image of someone shooting a gun upsidedown?

Because of the argument that a Greek is not so well versed in archery as they were in goldwork, the most authoratative depiction would be contemporary Scythian works.

R. Toelle- Kastenbein has published the book "Arrows and Bows in the Greek Antique".
This is the best collecion of pics and paintings focused on Greek archery, with almost every pic we know about Scythian bows.
Scythian bows are hold below the center, the arrow is shot from the center. The longer smaller limb is up.
Bede is very right, asking for the sense of the set- backed grip.
E. Godehardt and me tested our Scythian reconstructions, while shooting arrows from the center or above the apex..
Speed is higher when a Scythian bow is apex- shot.

Michael

Michael; Please clarify, "The longer, smaller limb is up."

Are there illustrations from eastern Scythians or just from Black Sea, Russian areas?

The mosaic of Alexander going after Darius does seem to depict a Sythian-like bow. The only problem I have with that is that Darius was a Persian, and the bow is not of a Persian design.

Thus it seems to me that the artist took some artistic liberties when depicting the bow. I suspect the artist was unfamiliar with the exact design of a classic Persian bow, but was very familiar with the common Greek bow, which is very similar to the Sythian bow. He inserted a bow according to his particular experience with bows.

Concerning how one grips such a bow, I suspect the arrow was placed dead center on the apex of the reflexed handle. The thumb and first two fingers lightly gripped the handle below this point and the remaining fingers very lightly touched the lower portions of the grip. This sort of bow would buck and squirm in the hand and a light grip would produce better shooting, at least from my experience with highly reflexed grips.

If one held the grip any lower the angle of the wrist would become uncomfortable if not painful at full draw.

In R. Toelle- Kastenbein?s book the posted Scythian bows are more or less asymmetrically.
The findings I?ve seen are designed with a shorter but wider lower limb and a smaller but longer upper limb. This makes absolutely sense.

The book is focused on Greek archery, so it seems obvious that the posted bows are of Western Scythian origine. But I don?t think that there are significant differences.

R.Toelle- Kastenbein is referring to Greek sources about the capablities of Scythian bows shooting arrows in the 200- 220m- range. The farthest shot ever reported should have been about 540m.

Michael

Hermit; Scythians spoke a kind of dialect of Persian; they were a satrap of Persia. Their bow design became an archetype of early Persian bow design.

In the era of Daryus, it was a major design. This is what I mean about how we know so little about bow design but assume that artists of the period knew less.

Just wait till Bede gets back and you will get a long lesson on Scythian/Persian association.

Michael; In my experience, if one wants a balanced asymmetrical bow, the long limb must be the stronger, more robustly built. Is that not your experience?

The longer limb could be thicker, but would at the same time need to be narrower than the lower. The extra thickness would not really be noticable without a calliper.

Jack, maybe you remember that the olon kurin-gol bow provoqued me to have a closer look at asymmetrical bow- designs. My bowyer- collegues are not to much interested in the fact, that the asymmetrical bow- design was much more common than we?ve thought of it. Many of them take it as a kind of voodoo or magic.
I asked mathematicians, artists, physicists about the subject and they found it very sense- making, if the longer upper limb bents more, the shorter lower limb is working as a kind of counter- balance. Maybe that?s what Kviljo is stating. I found out that asymmetrical bows have to be tillered in the same ratio as the ratio of the upper to the lower limb. So we have to tiller every limb for itself. Tillered like that asymmetrical bows seem to be unbreakable and store more energy than symmetrical bows. But efficiency seems to be the question.
I asked some kyudo- archers about the design of their bows and what they know about the construction and design and their experiences with them, they agree.
From a bowyers point of view it is very logical to make the shorter lower limb wide and strong and the upper longer limb narrow and more bending.

Michael

Wood is asymmetrical by nature.

Most trees are thicker and have heavier wood near the ground. Also the lower part is more curled on coppiced trees(I am thinking on hazel especially.) . I think coppiced trees are
generally good material for bows since they have long parts without branches, usually more so that "normally" grown.

This is not usually true if you use board or staves split from big trees.
(Both are very inconvinient without steel tools.)

Also the sorter lower limb will allign the handle more like pistol handle to arm.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coppicing

I found out that asymmetrical bows have to be tillered in the same ratio as the ratio of the upper to the lower limb.

Please explain "tillered in ratio".

jkekoni, great thought of yours: wood is asymmetrical by nature.

Did you know the statement of Al Herrin, a Cherokee- bowyer and writer:
take care that the upper part of the tree is the upper limb of your bow.....otherwise you?ve to do a headstand when shooting ...
I hope I?m right, that Al Herrin is really the one who said that.

If the lower limb measures 55cm in length and the upper limb measures 90cm in length you?ll get a ratio of 55:90=0.61.
So when you brace the bow the ratio of the greatest distances between the string and the limbs should be the same.
F.e. thegreatest distance from the string to the lower limb is 6cm, so the greatest distance from the string to the upper limb should be 9.8cm.
6:9.8=0.61.
This is disputable( should we compare the working parts of the limbs only?), I?ve just begun to check the subject, but so you got the best efficiency.
This is Adam?s subeixi- bow thread. As a kind of side- thread we got the asymmetrical bow designs in general.
If we go on discussing asymmentry in bow- designs let?s open a new thread?

Michael

Very funny Jack.
Modern linguists think that the Scythians spoke an Iranian language based on the few recorded words and the names of the people recorded by Greek historians. I think there might have been a satrapy for a short time in Europe called Skudra or Scythia. In one of Darius' inscriptions he refers to the Saka Tigrakhauda or the "pointed hat " Saka.
Saka is the generic Old Persian word for Scythian nomads.

On Persepolis' walls were carved pictures of both Saka and Persian and Median troops equipped with the short bow in a gorytos and the Scythian akinakes short sword. These Persian reliefs always show the bow covered in the gorytos and it is not possible to see the details of the quiver part of the gorytos. However, the shape under the cover is of a recurved bow. The Persian infantry in the same reliefs have larger recurved bows without setback handles.

So again I agree with Jack that there was certainly an early connection between the Scythians and Persians.

The Saka, who are postulated as the makers of the Subeixi bows, are thought to have spoken the Tocharian language. Tocharian languages were Indo-Iranian. Tocharian B was a literary language ion the early silk route.

Stephen,
The latest I have seen on Tocharian suggests that proto-Tocharian was a type A Indo-European language (based on types of consonants present) which puts it outside the Indo-Iranian sub-group. The Yueh-chi are postulated on the possible basis of reconstruction of the contemporary pronunciation of the characters as Tocharians. The Sakas are thought, as you pointed, out to be Indo-Iranian speakers.

It is interesting to note that the other Type A language is proto-Anatolian, which is the ancestor of Hittite. This coincides with the early appearance of Caucasian looking bodies from Xinjiang in the very early periods.

This would then correspond to several linguistic layers, Tocharian, Saka/Iranian and Indic from traders and missionaries from the north west of India. Later Iranian languages like Sogdian were added to the list.

Adam, your Subeixi bow is great! As Michael wrote: We reconstructed the bow which was found 2006 in Olon Kurin Gol. There was no indication of horn at the inner side, the bow was only approximately 118 cm long, it had asymmetrical limbs (the relation of the upper to the lower limb was about 3 to 2). The reflex in the riser, the deflexes above and below the riser where the limbs started, and the recurves as well were by far not so extreme as in the Subeixi bow. The string seems to be fixed at the tips in the same way as with the modern horse boe by Samick. There was no indication of horn plates at the tips (however, Pozdnyakov shows in his paper on Scythian quivers that in some places such horn plates have been found). The whole bow was wrapped in birch bark. Unfortunately, during the excavation this bark has been taken off the bow. However, we know from the reports that the bark was wrapped in strips horicontally around the bow over its whole length. So it worked probably also as a backing.
Our own experiments showed that this short bow from Olon Kurin Gol together with the short arrows found in the same grave had only a very moderate draw weight and the draw length was probably not beyond 21 or 22 inches. We made x-rays for one of the bows after using it without wrapping, but with one layer of sinew backing. The bow showed some severe damage inside its construction. Therefore we wrapped it tightly with silk thread after adding ssome silk tissue as an additional backing over the sinew backing. Then Michael Kieweg and I tested the bow at a draw length of 20 inches (measured from the inside of the riser, whicht means approximately 21 inches from the outside of the riser to the string. The arrow speed was about 110 ft per second, the bow weight was about 22 lbs, and the bow survived. So we believe that the wrapping is very essential for this type of bow, and this bow was by no means a war bow. You can hunt small game like rabbits with it! Some of the arrows found in the grave support this idea, they had blunts and no sharp tips.
Best regards, Erhard

Hello Erhard, good to hear from you again. The internal damage could have weakened your replica from the start for the reduced draw weight. On the other hand one can not expect a lot of (useable) weight from a short all wood bow. Depending on the conditions in the ground, the curvature of the limb tips could be reduced as well.

Is there any chance you could send me pictures of the original find (not the replica)? And exact measurements of thickness and width of limbs of the original bow? I could try to model it on a computer to get an idea of the weight. Even pictures with a scale attached would be good. If copyrighted, plese send to my email address.

Adam

Bede wrote:

Very funny Jack.
Modern linguists think that the Scythians spoke an Iranian language based on the few recorded words and the names of the people recorded by Greek historians. I think there might have been a satrapy for a short time in Europe called Skudra or Scythia. In one of Darius' inscriptions he refers to the Saka Tigrakhauda or the "pointed hat " Saka.
Saka is the generic Old Persian word for Scythian nomads.

On Persepolis' walls were carved pictures of both Saka and Persian and Median troops equipped with the short bow in a gorytos and the Scythian akinakes short sword. These Persian reliefs always show the bow covered in the gorytos and it is not possible to see the details of the quiver part of the gorytos. However, the shape under the cover is of a recurved bow. The Persian infantry in the same reliefs have larger recurved bows without setback handles.

So again I agree with Jack that there was certainly an early connection between the Scythians and Persians.

I agree. It is like we would call all the indians of the Greath Plain sioux.

TZH

Hello

Erhard! Your Olon Kuril Gol replicas became a sinew backing?? The original had laminated (4 pieces of wood) arms, hadn't it?

VG:

Zolt

Zoltan,
yes, one layer of sinew was added. However, due to problems with the glue lines between the wooden slats, there was an additional layer of silk fabric glued to the back and then the whole bow wrapped with silk thread to prevent the glue lines to open. Then we tried to use the bow. The base of this bow had been made by redhawk.
Best regards
Erhard

Godehard, thank you!

Zolt

I managed to find this documentary from YouTube. Unfortunately, it's in Chinese. There are five episodes from 2 to 6. I don't know what happened to the first first one. In the second episode part 1, you can see the Scythian bow at 6:03. Here are all three parts of the second episode.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDatwgdQ ... re=related (first part)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMQfqOWR ... re=related (second part)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PObPGfxR ... re=related (third part)

I wish I had spent more time in learning chinese.

But anyhow there was video about digging up scythian like bow, then next someone was shooting a Qing style bow, then there was asymmertic scythian like bow. Perhaps the context was told in the speaking...

Some other part perhaps told that the scythian like bows were rolled inside sinew instead of backed with it.

I guess there were speaking about the wrapping of the bow with sinew.
What do you mean by "rolling inside" ?
Thanks warbow for sharing these you tubes.
Michael

The sinew was wrapped around the bow. (=bow was rolled inside sinew). Not fluently said...

Something worries me. :?

The soft sand material from which the bow is shown being excavated is not much like the conditions at Yanghai. The ground conditions are quite hard and if the bow was inside the coffin (as usual), then there should not normally be so much sand around it: it would just be in a box with the corpse and other grave offerings.

The form of the bow in the illustration has clear differences from all the forms of Yanghai bows that I have seen (although it is somewhat similar.) I really wonder whether that is a real documentary of the excavation and whether the bow being handed around casually is really an excavated bow rather than a modern reproduction.

The Chinese commentary only talks about the construction being complex and requiring about 1 1/2 years. There is some discussion of the species of wood used for construction (Tamarisk).

I have the lowest regard for the production values of CCTV and I would not rely on what is being related in this documentary without further corroboration.

The excavation looked like a reproduction for the CCTV documentary.

As a side note, there is too much academic dishonesty in the Mainland that we can only take this documentary with a grain of salt. Take the example of the so-called the discovery of Cao Cao's tomb late last year.

Stephen Selby wrote:

Something worries me. :?

The soft sand material from which the bow is shown being excavated is not much like the conditions at Yanghai. The ground conditions are quite hard and if the bow was inside the coffin (as usual), then there should not normally be so much sand around it: it would just be in a box with the corpse and other grave offerings.

The form of the bow in the illustration has clear differences from all the forms of Yanghai bows that I have seen (although it is somewhat similar.) I really wonder whether that is a real documentary of the excavation and whether the bow being handed around casually is really an excavated bow rather than a modern reproduction.

The Chinese commentary only talks about the construction being complex and requiring about 1 1/2 years. There is some discussion of the species of wood used for construction (Tamarisk).

I have the lowest regard for the production values of CCTV and I would not rely on what is being related in this documentary without further corroboration.

Was thinking the same thing Stephen.

i can understand why.......it is a base knowledge of the society in china, maybe anywhere,you must follow lead's opinion,the lead is always right,greet and all succeed cause the lead, without what are ture , if you say no or wrong to the lead you can not got more behoof form lead that your livedepend on your job, non good result in china mode like the straight man bede say "What kind of birds would you need to wear armour to shoot?" to stephen ,you can say maybe the soldier need defend general or emperor when they hunting, assassinator(ass-ass-in-ator?thuggism?) and tiger(i like the tiger it is only big cat not so cowardly it can walk together with me in daytime)
:)

so i need think over stephen' opinion as a literate point of view, maybe we can find real video and picture of dig tomb?whatever, this video bring lots interest how find and dig a man's tomb(archaeology) :lol:

Who is the man speaking at 06:13 here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDatwgdQ ... re=related

S

06:13 is compere do eclaircissement and hard to now what other people saying, i guess maybe serindia is the man on this video and his chinese name call luenguo吕恩国, here is a auto translate about who are he:

Tianshan Web News (liqiao River reports) graduated from Peking University archaeology, 57-year-old this year in archaeology, a researcher at Lu Enguo from participating in the work of thousands of the excavated tomb, outside experts, he asserts that he said that he is an experienced person to dig graves.

Recently, I called the Lu Enguo , ask a question, Lu Enguo profound knowledge I suddenly realized that he should write about.

I contact Lu Enguo in 2004. I'm stationed in the County, and local farmers irrigation land, discover the 3 pieces of pottery, two pieces of pottery, also painted pattern. Back to Urumqi, colleague recommended I consult Lu Enguo , try a call, but very enthusiastic Lu Enguo, he detailed the phone asking the pottery's shape, size, pottery unearthed near the geographical environment, in the end, he told me, because not seen real, not a hasty conclusion. However, through my description, as well as in the past, his grasp of the relevant materials, basic can be concluded that the era of the pottery and uses, in particular, he mentioned the two pieces of pottery is certainly a very precious commodity.

From the phone, I can feel a bit the rigorous work style.

Subsequently, the Xinjiang archaeological another expert in travel, by the way, pulling on the 3 pieces of pottery, research findings and Lu Enguo on the phone said. 3 pieces of pottery are available in the Wei and Jin dynasties, two pieces of pottery in the South of archaeological excavations is extremely rare in the boutique.

In October 2005, I had the privilege to participate in the sponsored by Shanshan "find loulan descent" activities, Lu Enguo are invited to participate in the activities of one of the experts, so, I finally had the opportunity to feel a bit of style.

Archaeologists in Xinjiang, Lu Enguo is to study the history of Xinjiang prehistoric archaeology. However, this does not affect the Lu Enguo , as well as to related historical history of civilization of Central Asia. "Because that history does not exist in isolation. "Lu Enguo said.

In the years of field archaeology, excavations, Lu Enguo almost participated in Xinjiang all comparisons of significant archaeological excavation work on the phenomenon of human skulls perforation, the early form of the tombs in Xinjiang, second funeral prehistoric relics, the phenomenon of rock paintings, ancient nomadic society of economic activities, a lot of research.

In recent years, Lu Enguo has led to a rise in foreign archaeologists sea tomb of vibration, the Ili River Valley section mound tombs and other major archaeological research. Where the sea part of the Ili River Valley, Tomb mounds archaeological excavation of the Tomb, only the current preliminary research results, for the modern man opened the door to the prehistoric nomadic society in Xinjiang, to study Prehistoric Cypriot, Turkish, and even the Wusun, history of civilization of Central Asia work provides many direct historical stratigraphy.

Study of prehistory in Xinjiang, you have to understand the history of civilizations of Central Asia, it is for this reason, Lu Enguo 1993 States successively in Kazakhstan, and other places to visit scholar identity study a number of Central Asian history abroad. This period also witnessed a funny thing: steppe in northern Xinjiang, often in the archaeological excavations unearthed a stone cone, just started Lu Enguo feel that may be used by the ancients. His hands-on experiment, it is not easy to use, he wondered why the ancients used this kind of thing when drilling? obviously, cone with it.

Lu Enguo access to the extensive information, consult the domestic many peer, still no result. In Kazakhstan Qimu Kent Museum, Lu Enguo found the same thing, this stone rods is woman use make-up bar.

Research in the study abroad experience, develop a vision of Brunn countries, have gradually formed the Lu Enguo in the field of prehistoric history of archaeological research.

2003 sea tomb archaeological excavations, and still study is conducted at Lu Enguo in recent years is a wonderful thing.

From 3000 years from top to bottom of the sea tomb unearthed a large number of pottery, wood, and other items are dreams of archaeologists. Sea tomb of ancient Europa is also further evidence of the Lu Enguo study by another research topic: prehistoric times the Europa in Xinjiang, and Russia Comino fortunately Gdansk basin of Leandro Turnovo culture.

some question:
1 , it seemed adam not use Scythian slanting sinew back method,has no parallel sinew back like today we can see,
2, more small size wood on core, the wood is more bulky in the bow
3, the horn also in wood core, i can not know how it make in handel bend area and how it works?

why?

Jiao; If i can sidestep your questions for a moment.

Stephen; Don't I recall your saying that you investigated bows from Yanghai which were different and earlier than the ones you published here? I can imagine the full range of designs one would see on Greek vases; ie, with and without hooked recurves, large and small recurves, symmetrical and asymmetrical limbs, sharply bent and smoothly bent limbs and etc.

I think many are familiar with the theme of creating a dig site for reporters. Jeannine Davis Kimball wrote in Women Warriors how she was taken to a dig site near Urumchi and saw workmen shovel fresh dirt off a corpse she had seen in the museum storage just the day before!!!

Nevertheless, the Scythian type bow is interesting and the only one so far with decoration, if one can believe it is so. There was also momentarily shown a Warring states wood bow which was just then portrayed as a fantasy bow in the action scene.

You know if you go to a Chinese antiquities market there will be some smattering of authentic items surrounded by a plethora of modern junk.

If the bow in your photograph above is indeed a genuine excavated item, in my view in represents a new, intermediate form.

Last month I went through all of the material excavated from Yanghai and moved from the old Turfan Museum to the new one. Some material that I had seen on previous occasions was missing. However, there were bows of a more primitive stage. I had previously been confused by being told in 2005 that there 'previous stage' bows were from later burials. This time I was told that they were earlier (Shang to W. Zhou). Their distinctive feature was a shallower double curve than the Saka form and lacking the inward spiral at the tips. But most significantly, the internal structure was a 'conventional' horn/sinew/wood layered composite that we are all familiar with.

The bow above does not display its internal structure, but it has an elaborate birch bark finish that I have never seen the like of. I have also not seen the yumi-like string nocks. But that said, I can't say it's impossible that it was excavated at Yanghai.

Re Jiao: Lu Enguo is not 'Serindia'. I know
Lu well. However, I don't know what pressure's he is subject to when making a documentary for CCTV.

Well and what about this (?):

[external image]

I wonder if the "earlier" bows (if true) have the deflexed sections narrower than wider as the other bows. Are there any close-ups of the bark on the bows? It looks it is a pattern of alternating bands. Too easy to make and common to be authentic, I think.

In any case, it seems the bows with the vertical horn in the core and the reflexed tips could be considered "better" at the time, given the more labour intensive construction and the limbs, which follow the shape of ibex horns.

Adam

Take the example of the so-called the discovery of Cao Cao's tomb late last year.
You know if you go to a Chinese antiquities market there will be some smattering of authentic items surrounded by a plethora of modern junk

i can say it is ture, after china do innovate economy the businessman's greed not or a few limitative by law or conscientiously,all bad thing is people hanker the money to much,any way if you got more money you will be a succeed man, actually in my works i can not eulogize my lead like psalmodic she want to hear,and not got some money conscienceless when i do businessman , in Wall Street we can find same but more greet people there

maybe what is right way don't go too extreme way need all times study and thinking it, how much money you need and want? how much affliction and happy on this road? maybe it will turn more religionary, human hurt all being on earth, what time the human will reduce amount fit the resource and nature,the result is war

Jiao; I am not criticizing a Chinese market or businessmen. I am saying that there may be some real gems in this television programming among all the junk.

Dusan; For instance the bow you posted is Stephen's #4 bow from Yanghai: http://www.atarn.org/chinese/Yanghai/yanghai.htm

Adam; Please tell me how you see a Scythian bow in this Ibex from Central Asia. I used pieces going backwards and forwards, right side up and upside down.

Jack, the core has to be bent to follow the deflex in the middle of the limbs.

Adam

Oups... I realy dont think that this is same bow. Pic is from this film and from this angle looks ... strange. I think that Adam mean somthing like this Jack :lol:

[external image]

jack,it is real lots imitated antique there and good businessman not sell it expensive, i see lots sword of han and Warring states cost 20$ there,i want got a new one if it has no rubiginous dispose it , the weight and handel very fit my hand, the huge amount imitated antique sell cheep for the demand like we use fiberglass "tradition" hornbow

did we need consider the custom of put something to a man' tomb? his bow is he often useing bow or make a new easy bow to his tomb, in the movie say the if the bow kill mans it must break it for the tomb in Scythian custom, in the case some people's bow not follow it's master to the tomb ?

I see a Scythian bow no more inspired by Ibex than it is by water buffalo. It can be seen that there is no hook on the end of the horn. The hook must be induced. The limbs are curved but no more so than any horn. In fact the natural curve of the Ibex must be relaxed. The deflex in the limb must then be radically bent AGAINST the natural bend of the horn and then once again allowed to return to a natural bend. And this is only the vertical core. The process of reversing the natural bend must be repeated on the belly.

The bow which is entirely designed around the natural curve of the Ibex preceded the Scythian culture by one thousand years; the angular composite of the Near East.

That the Scythian bow had predecessors in Central Asia is borne out in Bede's and JJ's post concerning antler lath reenforced Neolithic bows of southern Siberia. What would be most informative would be a link (or three) between these two designs. (Siberian and Scythian)

The illustration shows Ibex laths laid out in their natural curves. Two of these equals an angular bow. Sorry for the rant. Jack

Jack,
I think you have made a very good point about the angular bow.

Remember the Greek hornbows, all made according to the same principle........the handle section has not to be made of horn, whether it bends or not, no need of a running through horn lengthwise...........look at Dusan?s sample.
Michael

Jack,

"I see a Scythian bow no more inspired by Ibex than it is by water buffalo. It can be seen that there is no hook on the end of the horn. The hook must be induced."

I know what you mean. However, we should remember there were no splices found in the vertical horn of the limbs and the back to belly thickness of the vertical strip was over 1/2in mid limb. Now, where can you find horn of this thickness mid length? The best way to cut a strip like that is from the sides of horn (as you did with your bow, didn't you?).

Secondly, the ibex horns vary quite a bit as to the curvature of the tips. I had a picture of an ibex with the curves just like the bows. Other species of ibex or even individual animals may look differently. Not all bows had such a sharp curve at the tips (perhaps most of them did not actually), or the "hook" was much smaller. This is why I stated before the curvature of the tips was not intended to increase the energy storage of the bows by the supposed "unrolling".

"In fact the natural curve of the Ibex must be relaxed. The deflex in the limb must then be radically bent AGAINST the natural bend of the horn and then once again allowed to return to a natural bend."

Yes, the deflex in the core is forced against the natural bend of the horn. Then, as the bow is used, the outer limbs (assuming no forced pre-bending there) will straighten out a little as in other horn bows.

"And this is only the vertical core. The process of reversing the natural bend must be repeated on the belly."

Yes, it can be repeated on the thinner strips, now cut from the outer side of horn (as usual), or the strips thus cut are reversed inside out to be put on the bow. In both cased some heat pre-bending is needed, but easy to do on the thinner strips.

"The bow which is entirely designed around the natural curve of the Ibex preceded the Scythian culture by one thousand years; the angular composite of the Near East."

It is quite possible as well. In the angular bows less curved horns make the shape of the belly, but I do not see why it had to be ibex. Horns of most animals are curved.

Do you have a link to the neolitic bows? I can not recal what they were at the moment.

Adam

Adam; "I know what you mean. However, we should remember there were no splices found in the vertical horn of the limbs and the back to belly thickness of the vertical strip was over 1/2in mid limb. Now, where can you find horn of this thickness mid length? The best way to cut a strip like that is from the sides of horn (as you did with your bow, didn't you?)."

Yes I did. I think it is brilliant of you to suggest this. But you did this also from Water buffalo and had no problem finding a suitable piece. Therefore your bow was inspired by a water buffalo?

"Yes, it can be repeated on the thinner strips, now cut from the outer side of horn (as usual), or the strips thus cut are reversed inside out to be put on the bow."

I would emphatically say yes again. In this manner the horn requirements for a Scythian bow can be obtained from a single horn.

My Siberian bow slide is somewhere hiding. Maybe Bede or anyone else will post here.

Michael; Please demonstrate that a Greek type Scythian bow had a different construction method than say, the Yanghai bows. I am not disagreeing.

"Therefore your bow was inspired by a water buffalo..."

No, I had to splice the curved tips to the buff horn strips (taken from the side walls).

Adam

All; "In this manner the horn requirements for a Scythian bow can be obtained from a single horn."

This would only be true if Scythians had a saw available, or a similar tool. If only a chopping tool such as an adz were used, then the same bow would require 4 horns.

This is something I would like to get to the bottom of.

I have pondered this question for a long time. One can cut horn without a saw. It is possible to make grooves in horn to follow the shapes until the desired piece is broken free. It can be done even without a metal blade - a piece of flint would do fine. Ths method will work best on relatively thin material such as the side walls of horns or on the outer sections not too close to the solid tips of horns, where the material is too thick. The cuts will probabbly be easier when the horn is softened by heat.

Adam

Adam and all; I would assume then that you are familiar with the Eskimo technique of removing slats of ivory from a whole walrus tusk by this method?

Recently I was wondering if it were possible to split horn with any accuracy. Has anyone tried this technique?

I found it unproductive to make a split diving into the center of a horn (piece) but the split followed nicely, even easily, parallel-ish to the surface. Am I coming across?

In this manner, Adam's technique of channeling a horn would not need to reach the center of the horn, could go to the very tip, and then a slat of sufficient thickness PRIED off the whole horn.

The only way to know for sure is to try it. -j-

I know that Dr Grayson had worked on antler this way and he had found an excavated antler partly worked suggesting this was a very old procedure. While antler is more brittle than horn and harder, I can see no reason that the same technique could be applied to horn.

Grayson's method for taking strips out of Bighorn Sheep horn was to drill a series of holes following the line he wanted to use and then splitting the horn between the holes. He always claimed to me that this type of horn was most difficult to saw precisely. My experience was that it was even difficult to drill with small diameter drills. However, using an old fashioned bow-drill, I am sure most horns could have been drilled and split.

Drilling and gouging, followed by splitting, seems to me to be a viable technique in the absence of a saw. I have split horn with a knife hammered on the back in short sections. Perhaps this would be viable between holes drilled along a line.

I?ve had the same question: did the Scythians have used a saw or something similiar?
When I had been in Siberia, I asked the Russian archaeologists about saw- findings in Scythian graves. No saws at all.
So I tried to work horn with knives, stone- blades and scrapers, an axe.
It turned out not to be that hard we think of it. If you get confident with the growing principles of a horn, you?ve got it. It?s similiar to work the back of a selfbow, but much harder.

Jack, there is not any finding of a Greek hornbow. There are pics, and a poem of Homer. Homer is telling us that a Greek hornbow is made of a pair of horn of a ram assembled lengthwise by a wooden handle, that?s all.Cut the horn- slats, shape a handle and splice them. Then sinew- back it.
That?s something like a sheephorn- bow without wooden core but with a wooden handle. It works, but not as stable as a hornbow with a wooden core.
Michael

Michael; Homer's Iliad describes the sacking of Troy, a bronze age event. Scythian bows are Iron age bows. So his short description is not useful for understanding Scythian-type construction.

(His description is hardly useful for understanding ANY bow's construction.)

Michael,
The majority of scholarly opinion since Balfour is that Homer was describing a standard composite bow, not a bow assembled from a wooden handle and two whole horns. The description in the Odyssey of the attempts to string the bow of Odysseus is clearly based on techniques used for an ordinary composite bow.

Homer was probably written down in the 9th-8th centuries BC, but describing events of several centuries earlier. Some German scholars think that some parts of the archery descriptions reflect a cycle of stories based on the propaganda of the Pharaohs of the New Kingdom. Many legends of the origin of Homer point to Asia Minor. The Kingdom of the Hittites was a close neighbour and the Hittites used composite bows. It would be very easy for the Greeks to have acquired composite bows as early as the Bronze Age, before they even met the Scythians.

jack farrell wrote:

This would only be true if Scythians had a saw available, or a similar tool. If only a chopping tool such as an adz were used, then the same bow would require 4 horns.

This is something I would like to get to the bottom of.

No saws have been excavated at Yanghai. But on the other hand, the range of tools excavated was very narrow, mainly involving tools with a ritual significance. I have a pictorial dictionary of all tools excavated in China and the saw does not feature in it as such, although there are some knives with serrations.

Sawing was widely used as a method of shaping jade from neolithic times. A saw was formed using a cord with coarse or fine sand adhering to it. Could this tool have been used for cutting horn?

Horn is a lot softer than jade (nephrite in those times). Wasn't there also an abrasive mounted on bamboo blades for hard stone work?

There are tomb paintings from Egypt in the middle second millennium BCE which shows craftsmen in the royal archery workshops sawing horns for hornbows.

I have seen such an object and it is a bronze knife which had been struck on its edge with a sharp tool (chisel ?) to make a gathered kind of dent.

This would predate Scythian bow making by 1000 years. Of course it also does not indicate that Scythians had these available.

I think than we dont need a archeological tool finds... You must only go to the old bazars in midle east, Iran , Iraq/ or Yemen / etc. And you can see all oldest traditional tools and "tricks" vithout any 1000 years changes. Some of masters have modern machines , but you can still see "living history " in own eye...
( remember like archeologs find some"machine" in old greece ship in see , and next find same "galvanisation" primitive machine in Arabian bazars...) :lol:

I know one old carpenter in another city who works in traditional way.he just use adze and some primitive tools.but he as never works with horn.
in Isfihan i know an artist which use tools like frame saw and... but he hasn't work with horn too.
unfortunately time gap between u and bowyers is about 200 years :shock: here.
and some other people here made their own saw.

There were definitely saws at least in the Middle Bronze Age. I?ve seen Minoan bronze saws from Crete (1600 BC). Saws seem to be invented as soon as swords or knives in the beginning of metal use. The Iron Age (since 800BC) has many finds of iron saws. It seems to me impossible that Scythians or their neighbors did not know or use saws at 600 BC.

JJ

Boys, you dont believe that people who can make such beatifull things like this :

(greeks- Kaspian sea )

[external image]

(Pazirik)


[external image]

[external image]

(Saka)

[external image]

[external image]


cant cut horns ?
Here you can see old pic vith his today use :

[external image]


(reconstruction- but function machine )

[external image]

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master in midlle east :

[external image]

Yes, I suspect Dusan's image -
[external image]

is the answer to the riddle. This would have been a very familiar sight in bronze age times. Either a hemp cord or bamboo could have been used to hold the abrasive.

Isn't that someone bowing cotton?

I just looked up Needham's Science and Civilisation in China Vol. IV:2 and he suggests saws were a Neolithic invention. I do not have his sources, but I do remember seeing a saw-like device made from antler with microliths embedded in it. How practical this was for something like horn I don't know. I would prefer the abrasive on the string to cut horn. It would be slow.

I think that todays cutting strings like this :

[external image]

was only descendetnt of very old technik. I can tell you guys , that this string cut very well , and quickly. Strings was sell especialy for farmers for cow horn cutting ! :D

Archeological found in Georgia vegetable cord fibres was continue vith this question :

[external image]

Interesting primitive way example :

http://www.primitiveways.com/bone_awl.html

I absolutely agree with Dusan,I have seen people working in the remote regions of india with some of the oldest technology,literally like a live meuseum exibit,I have to say this that image # 9 is of Indian artisans as the child pulling the strings to turn the lathe is clearly a brahmin,the shikha(hair on the back of his shaved head) is a clear sign that it is a brahmin child.
This in itself is a very controvercial thing as Brahmins are never associated with craft work but usually with schlorly work and duties.
Regards
P.J.

No need for string with abrasives, here?s Bronze Age saws:

[external image]

[external image]

[external image]

[external image]

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[external image]

(all from Minoan culture, Crete, between 2000 and 1500 BC)

That?s 1000 years before the Syths.

Dusan what do you want to tell us with the article on paleolithic Flax fibers?

Best regards,

JJ

I think that this is logical relation between modern cutt string and fibres - who can vith glued abrasivs be a good cutting material. And this archeological founds show us how long time ago man can working vith fibres... Thats all. Maybe litlle out of thema :lol: