Bows From Persia
Here I'll put pics of bows that i've measured in Iran museums:
The first one is an steel bow from Qajar dynasty (1794-1925 A.D)
Does any one knows that they really use this kind of bows?
Sorry for dark pictures.
The first one is an steel bow from Qajar dynasty (1794-1925 A.D)
Does any one knows that they really use this kind of bows?
Sorry for dark pictures.
Here is some more pics:
Thanks for pictures and info, I didn't know Persian used steel bows. In same way it reminds me of the Indian steel bows.
I've always wondered; steel bow?? what the heck?! more importantly why the heck?!
I really curious about why and how these type of bow is used.
I have some ridiculous ideas but i would like to hear facts.
I really curious about why and how these type of bow is used.
I have some ridiculous ideas but i would like to hear facts.
Thank you for your post i just think these for ceremonial use only not hunting and....
because it's steel must be like spring like thhe steel crossbow prod if they make it a little stiff it will blow up like a generade!
Does any one know anything about their usage?
because it's steel must be like spring like thhe steel crossbow prod if they make it a little stiff it will blow up like a generade!
Does any one know anything about their usage?
Thank you for your post i just think these for ceremonial use only not hunting and....
because it's steel must be like spring like thhe steel crossbow prod if they make it a little stiff it will blow up like a generade!
all of it's limb is about 1.5 mm!
Does any one know anything about their usage?
because it's steel must be like spring like thhe steel crossbow prod if they make it a little stiff it will blow up like a generade!
all of it's limb is about 1.5 mm!
Does any one know anything about their usage?
The second bow is a hornbow from Qajar dynasty again:
Does any one know anything about this like how many peices is this because i wasn't able to CT Scan them!
Handle: 8"*1.5"*1"
Siyah: 30cm*2cm*1.7cm
Nock Groove: 10mm*10mm
Limb+Siyah:63cm
The widest part of Siyah:3.5cm
Tip reinforced with some material like horn.
Here it is:
Does any one know anything about this like how many peices is this because i wasn't able to CT Scan them!
Handle: 8"*1.5"*1"
Siyah: 30cm*2cm*1.7cm
Nock Groove: 10mm*10mm
Limb+Siyah:63cm
The widest part of Siyah:3.5cm
Tip reinforced with some material like horn.
Here it is:
Here is some more pics:
I think steel bows were also used in target archery in 1940-1950 before glassfibre came.
They were more sure not to break than wooden bows.
They were more sure not to break than wooden bows.
Thanks again for the pictures. This is one of the best decorated hornbows that I have seen. The details are exquisite. About the overall profile, is this the standard Persian profile?. It kinda looks like a crab bow in some way. I'm not familiar with Persian bows.
Steel bows were not so uncommon in the Mughal period. These were made in special steel working towns famous for this work in modern India and Pakistan. They mostly took apart in the handle as does the one illustrated.
In those days all weapons were decorated. This one, however is carved deeply into the limb which would seem to be detrimental to the working of such a weapon. On others, the surface was prepared and then silver and gold wire was hammered into the surface, not damascene, where a groove was chisel cut but, koftgari, as described above.
This Tehran bow also has taken a severe set. Mughal bows of this type are straighter..
The advantage of a steel bow is that it is not affected by weather, rain or cold. Well made ones will not snap and can be strung indefinitely. They are high prestige goods but inferior to horn bows in cast.
Early references to metal bows include multiple statements in the Bible. They have long historic use. There may be some religious/philosophical meaning. -j-
In those days all weapons were decorated. This one, however is carved deeply into the limb which would seem to be detrimental to the working of such a weapon. On others, the surface was prepared and then silver and gold wire was hammered into the surface, not damascene, where a groove was chisel cut but, koftgari, as described above.
This Tehran bow also has taken a severe set. Mughal bows of this type are straighter..
The advantage of a steel bow is that it is not affected by weather, rain or cold. Well made ones will not snap and can be strung indefinitely. They are high prestige goods but inferior to horn bows in cast.
Early references to metal bows include multiple statements in the Bible. They have long historic use. There may be some religious/philosophical meaning. -j-
Thank you jkekoni and Jack for your help.
I'm sorry Jos?Dom but i don't know exactly if it is a standard Persian bow because here there are many kind of diffrent bow from diffrent dynasty!
Thank You
I'm sorry Jos?Dom but i don't know exactly if it is a standard Persian bow because here there are many kind of diffrent bow from diffrent dynasty!
Thank You
Here is pics from a Zand period (1750-1794 A.D.) bow:
Does anyone know what is the metal on the limb?
Does anyone know what is the metal on the limb?
More pics:
Thanks for sharing the photos. I really like the artwork on the steel bow.
Oh; This is another good find. I would suppose the iron plates are patches. On the limb with two, the first was probably not enough. Andrew Hall has found another bow with a metal patch.
JJ, you might notify K. Zellinger that this is a bow quite like his labeled as "Turkestan" bow in the Bows and arrows Museum publication (Yesterday and Today) p.261.
This solves a real riddle because of the shape of the bow and that it has attached bridges. -j-
JJ, you might notify K. Zellinger that this is a bow quite like his labeled as "Turkestan" bow in the Bows and arrows Museum publication (Yesterday and Today) p.261.
This solves a real riddle because of the shape of the bow and that it has attached bridges. -j-
Thanks hcspng for sharing these pics.
Outstanding bows, I?m done and love them!
Michael
Outstanding bows, I?m done and love them!
Michael
Fantastic pics, hcspng. Thank you. That very colored one looks like one from Crepy museum from France. Maybe same master (?)
Iron plate in limb is only nonsensitivy work from some museum workers. I see this in many variations in museums . This people written in bow limbs vith permanent markers, glued papers or wooden ...or iron plates. :roll:
Iron plate in limb is only nonsensitivy work from some museum workers. I see this in many variations in museums . This people written in bow limbs vith permanent markers, glued papers or wooden ...or iron plates. :roll:
Thank you everyone as soon as i can i'll go to Millitary Museum of Tehran and measure about ten bows there and put the pics here.
Dusan i think that it was pounch in old days and it was on both limb back and belly and old keepers have done this it's terrible!
Dusan i think that it was pounch in old days and it was on both limb back and belly and old keepers have done this it's terrible!
hcspng, , thats fantastic plan ! Go and measure and shot many pics . You very help us .
Regarding steel bows, Kay Koppedrayer wrote an article in the Journal of the Society of Archer-Antiquaries about how steel bows were used in training young archers in South India. Due to various religious reasons, steel bows were popular with the Sikhs in the Punjab too. The steel bow in Tehran looks Indian rather than Persian because of the decoration which is identifiably Indian. However, Iranian artisans might have made it for the Indian market so that is no guaranty of the origin. Other uses of steel bows was as arsenal weapons stored in fortresses in case of emergency since they did not deteriorate. They could be used in elephant howdahs on tiger hunts for an emergency weapon too or in corridors in a castle. They are usually smaller and shorter in draw than the normal composite bows used in the same country.
The painted bow looks like the one in Arms and Armor from Iran: The Bronze Age to the End of the Qajar Period . This style of Persian bow seems to survive in two states. In one it has retained considerable reflex and in the other it has opened out by following the string. I think this is related to the method of storage. Some bows were left strung in collections for years. I remember seeing one in an interview hanging on the wall of the Gulistan Palace. Others were put away unstrung after being properly cared for. These ones keep their reflex. In the past, before the many bows made in recent times in the old manner, some authors thought the highly reflexed bows were unused, but this now seems unlikely. Other reasons for the bow opening out are that it was strung before it fully cured or that it was deliberately left that way to make it easier to string and draw.
The diagnostic features of this bow type are an angle between the kasan and the bash, another angle between the kasan and the working part of the bow limb, wide limbs, and a covered belly with multiple strips of horn.
The kasan and bash together were called the gusha or gosha which was same as the Arabic siyah and it means ear.
The painted bow looks like the one in Arms and Armor from Iran: The Bronze Age to the End of the Qajar Period . This style of Persian bow seems to survive in two states. In one it has retained considerable reflex and in the other it has opened out by following the string. I think this is related to the method of storage. Some bows were left strung in collections for years. I remember seeing one in an interview hanging on the wall of the Gulistan Palace. Others were put away unstrung after being properly cared for. These ones keep their reflex. In the past, before the many bows made in recent times in the old manner, some authors thought the highly reflexed bows were unused, but this now seems unlikely. Other reasons for the bow opening out are that it was strung before it fully cured or that it was deliberately left that way to make it easier to string and draw.
The diagnostic features of this bow type are an angle between the kasan and the bash, another angle between the kasan and the working part of the bow limb, wide limbs, and a covered belly with multiple strips of horn.
The kasan and bash together were called the gusha or gosha which was same as the Arabic siyah and it means ear.
I would rather think the reflexed bow originated in India rather than in Persia. It seems the ridged kasan goes a little beyond the kasan/sal bend, whch may be characteristic of the Indian bows. The angle of the bend there would vary (with an extreme angle in the crab bow) and these area would not flex in use at all. In Persian bows the kasan/sal may have an acute angle as well, but the ridged section stops short of the bend. This makes the bow flex there, unlike in the Indian bows. The two types would then function differently, although the rest of the construction is identical: the wide limbs, the small grip, the varying reflex in the limbs/grip. Of course there would be intermediate styles too. I hope someone will investigate the matter in depth taking into account the above details.
The other bow looks like a variant of the Crimean-Tatar bow with a little less reflex in the grip. The curvature of the kasan and the kasan eye is correct for this style and the bow has a bridge as well. The bridge appears to be build-up with an added piece of wood over the original horn.
Adam
The other bow looks like a variant of the Crimean-Tatar bow with a little less reflex in the grip. The curvature of the kasan and the kasan eye is correct for this style and the bow has a bridge as well. The bridge appears to be build-up with an added piece of wood over the original horn.
Adam
It is so impressive to me that these bows were not just tools to be used but pieces of art, an opportunity for the builder to express himself. Remarkable and what a joy to behold today.
Adam,
As you know from working with Manochehr, some of the bows are dated and signed so it would be worth finding out more about the bows themselves. Considering the number of Persian weapon makers who migrated to India, there might be some trouble identifying anything by workmanship alone.
I take your point about the transition of the ridged section to the bending limb, but is there any reason to believe this is anything other than a regional variation. The Qizlibash troops were of Anatolian Turkish origin and may have brought more Turkish styles of design with them. The Qajars had links to the Caucasus as did the later Safavid shahs who used many Georgian ghulam troops. This could either explain a Crim Tatar influence in Persia or alternately a Persian influence in the Caucasus and the Crimea.
In art, the ridge of the kasan is sometimes shown all the way down to the bending part of limb and sometimes not. I know artisic representations cannot solve this problem, but there is a fair number from both the Safavid and the Qajar period and many of them do look like surviving bows.
As you know from working with Manochehr, some of the bows are dated and signed so it would be worth finding out more about the bows themselves. Considering the number of Persian weapon makers who migrated to India, there might be some trouble identifying anything by workmanship alone.
I take your point about the transition of the ridged section to the bending limb, but is there any reason to believe this is anything other than a regional variation. The Qizlibash troops were of Anatolian Turkish origin and may have brought more Turkish styles of design with them. The Qajars had links to the Caucasus as did the later Safavid shahs who used many Georgian ghulam troops. This could either explain a Crim Tatar influence in Persia or alternately a Persian influence in the Caucasus and the Crimea.
In art, the ridge of the kasan is sometimes shown all the way down to the bending part of limb and sometimes not. I know artisic representations cannot solve this problem, but there is a fair number from both the Safavid and the Qajar period and many of them do look like surviving bows.
I think the extremes of this construction would be more than the regional difference, since the bows would look different when strung and especially when drawn, due to the flexing, or the lack of it, at the kasan/sal transition. The other bow is so obviously Tatar that it was almost certainly made by a bowyer who either worked for the Caucasian/Tatar troops or lived there.
Adam
Adam
Adam,
Considering that many Crim Tatar bows were being made in Istanbul, I wouldn't be surprised if the similar bows used in the Caucasus were not sometimes made in Iran.
I will have to sit down with all the pictures I have of Persian bows and see if I can come up with a typological pattern similar to yours. Considering the four main styles of bows used in India, even a Persian bow by your definition could be made there.
I look more to the kasan/bash angle to define the bow though I admit it is less significant that the kasan/sal portion as a structural feature. Comparing the bows I have seen as identified as Persian and taking into account the literary references, I would be surprised if there was only one physical type of bow in use in Iran.
Technically there is no reason that a crab bow made in India could not be adjusted to have some Persian features. Some of the Mogul bows illustrated in Pant's photographs have a crab bow K/S junction and a Persian K/B junction.
Considering that many Crim Tatar bows were being made in Istanbul, I wouldn't be surprised if the similar bows used in the Caucasus were not sometimes made in Iran.
I will have to sit down with all the pictures I have of Persian bows and see if I can come up with a typological pattern similar to yours. Considering the four main styles of bows used in India, even a Persian bow by your definition could be made there.
I look more to the kasan/bash angle to define the bow though I admit it is less significant that the kasan/sal portion as a structural feature. Comparing the bows I have seen as identified as Persian and taking into account the literary references, I would be surprised if there was only one physical type of bow in use in Iran.
Technically there is no reason that a crab bow made in India could not be adjusted to have some Persian features. Some of the Mogul bows illustrated in Pant's photographs have a crab bow K/S junction and a Persian K/B junction.
The Qizlibash history or should I say legacy in Afghanistan is particularly interesting. They seemed to act as a warrior elite that was called upon for a long time for foreigners to assume power in the Pashtun regions. Even the English declared them allies during the First Anglo-Afghan War. So it's interesting they maintained their Turkic-style bows as opposed to adopting Persian ones.Bede wrote:
Adam,
As you know from working with Manochehr, some of the bows are dated and signed so it would be worth finding out more about the bows themselves. Considering the number of Persian weapon makers who migrated to India, there might be some trouble identifying anything by workmanship alone.
I take your point about the transition of the ridged section to the bending limb, but is there any reason to believe this is anything other than a regional variation. The Qizlibash troops were of Anatolian Turkish origin and may have brought more Turkish styles of design with them. The Qajars had links to the Caucasus as did the later Safavid shahs who used many Georgian ghulam troops. This could either explain a Crim Tatar influence in Persia or alternately a Persian influence in the Caucasus and the Crimea.
In art, the ridge of the kasan is sometimes shown all the way down to the bending part of limb and sometimes not. I know artisic representations cannot solve this problem, but there is a fair number from both the Safavid and the Qajar period and many of them do look like surviving bows.
Lucas
Lucas,
Bows in Afghanistan are really quite interesting and diverse in form. Some look like enlarged Chahar Kham bows (i.e. Sind bows) and others look like Persian bows as we now understand them. It is worth noting that in one of Dr Khorasani's manuscripts, Chahar Kham bows are listed as one of the types of Persian bows.
It would be interesting to know what type of bows the Hazaras used since they have both a historical link with the Mongols and Iran.
Bows in Afghanistan are really quite interesting and diverse in form. Some look like enlarged Chahar Kham bows (i.e. Sind bows) and others look like Persian bows as we now understand them. It is worth noting that in one of Dr Khorasani's manuscripts, Chahar Kham bows are listed as one of the types of Persian bows.
It would be interesting to know what type of bows the Hazaras used since they have both a historical link with the Mongols and Iran.
Yes it would, considering how culturally, ethnically, and religiously they have been isolated and preserved so to speak for so many years vis-?-vis the local Pashtuns of Afghanistan.
Also, another thing I noticed is that many Persian bows made today are not nearly as reflexed as the Qajar hornbow on this thread. Is there a reason for this?
? who makes "persian" bows
I have met up with Novotny several times and shot his Persian bows. They make a boat-shaped reflex when unstrung, as opposed to a C-shape.
Most hornbows , after unstrung was more or less in boat shape.Include Korean "higher boat " :) .Bows need time, or heated help coming to C shape.
Francesco posted images of a trip to the Mus?e de l'archerie on FB, this one fits right here:
http://i.imgur.com/IsHaLCD.jpg
If anyone else has pictures to show, I'm very interested in Safavid era bows.
http://i.imgur.com/IsHaLCD.jpg
If anyone else has pictures to show, I'm very interested in Safavid era bows.