Problem at changing my technique to thumb
Hi atarn members!
At first I want to thank you for your great pool of information on this forum!
My name ist Simon, I'm into archery for two years, 6 months of olympic barebow at first and later euro-american traditional recurve. I've always been shooting split fingers. Over that time there was always a growing admiration for short asian reflexbows. Lately I got the chance to borrow a hungarian bow from a friend, wich made me more and more curious about shooting these bows.
With spreaded arms, the distance between my middlefinger tips is exactly two meters - so my drawlength even to the corner of my mouth is long. Even 62" recurves arent comfortable to shoot with split fingers - so I want to change to thumb technique. I reckon it's harder to pinch only one finger than three splitted.
So I tried thumbshooting according to mr. selby's chinese archery video series. Thank you a lot by the way.
To my problem:
My hand tells me to be stressed at the red marked points on the first photo. to reduce the stress I made a string-loop like its used on compound bows - only longer to reduce drawweight by drawlength on the bow as seen on the other picture.
Are these points, where I feel a little pain (or discomfort) normal?
How can I help myself reducing stress on my hand?
Thanks for your help and best regards,
Simon
At first I want to thank you for your great pool of information on this forum!
My name ist Simon, I'm into archery for two years, 6 months of olympic barebow at first and later euro-american traditional recurve. I've always been shooting split fingers. Over that time there was always a growing admiration for short asian reflexbows. Lately I got the chance to borrow a hungarian bow from a friend, wich made me more and more curious about shooting these bows.
With spreaded arms, the distance between my middlefinger tips is exactly two meters - so my drawlength even to the corner of my mouth is long. Even 62" recurves arent comfortable to shoot with split fingers - so I want to change to thumb technique. I reckon it's harder to pinch only one finger than three splitted.
So I tried thumbshooting according to mr. selby's chinese archery video series. Thank you a lot by the way.
To my problem:
My hand tells me to be stressed at the red marked points on the first photo. to reduce the stress I made a string-loop like its used on compound bows - only longer to reduce drawweight by drawlength on the bow as seen on the other picture.
Are these points, where I feel a little pain (or discomfort) normal?
How can I help myself reducing stress on my hand?
Thanks for your help and best regards,
Simon
What poundage bow did you use?
According to the writing on the upper limb: 33#@28" and approx. ~45#@33". Thats the reason for the loop - too much.
Simon,
I think that the reason for feeling stress where you do is a combination of issues. I really need to know what type of thumb protection you are using.
The three pressure points result from two different causes. The problems at the proximal segments are caused by the bowstring dragging the index finger and the thumb. This tells me that the method you are using to hold the string is not working correctly.
You need to close your hand into a fist first using the little, ring and middle fingers to make the fist. In the beginning you leave the thumb and index finger outstretched and relaxed. Then you hook the thumb around the string and press the tip of the thumb hard against the clenched three other fingers. If possible you press the tip of the thumb against the side of the middle segment of the middle finger. Once these four digits are locked firmly together, then you lightly put the index finger over the thumb nail.
The wrist stress maybe corrected if you turn the hand out when you draw so that the force is directed from the base of the thumb through the wrist.
You are in a difficult situation. Most bows are designed to be at equilibrium at full draw. As you draw more they usually stack which causes the beginning thumb-draw user to try to hold on too hard. Therefore you compensate by trying to hold onto the thumb with the index finger. This in term causes the thumb to slacken off even though you may not be able to feel it.
If you could find one, it would be better to start with a bow that was about 20 pound at your full draw length. To build up strength and technique at the beginning saves you a lot of trouble later on.
I think that the reason for feeling stress where you do is a combination of issues. I really need to know what type of thumb protection you are using.
The three pressure points result from two different causes. The problems at the proximal segments are caused by the bowstring dragging the index finger and the thumb. This tells me that the method you are using to hold the string is not working correctly.
You need to close your hand into a fist first using the little, ring and middle fingers to make the fist. In the beginning you leave the thumb and index finger outstretched and relaxed. Then you hook the thumb around the string and press the tip of the thumb hard against the clenched three other fingers. If possible you press the tip of the thumb against the side of the middle segment of the middle finger. Once these four digits are locked firmly together, then you lightly put the index finger over the thumb nail.
The wrist stress maybe corrected if you turn the hand out when you draw so that the force is directed from the base of the thumb through the wrist.
You are in a difficult situation. Most bows are designed to be at equilibrium at full draw. As you draw more they usually stack which causes the beginning thumb-draw user to try to hold on too hard. Therefore you compensate by trying to hold onto the thumb with the index finger. This in term causes the thumb to slacken off even though you may not be able to feel it.
If you could find one, it would be better to start with a bow that was about 20 pound at your full draw length. To build up strength and technique at the beginning saves you a lot of trouble later on.
Thank you for the advices, Bede!
I try to follow them.
I'm using my bare thumb - and hope that information helps for more advices.
A 20#@33" bow from the bow-industry seems to be rare - so I try to find one or make one myself.
I try to follow them.
I'm using my bare thumb - and hope that information helps for more advices.
A 20#@33" bow from the bow-industry seems to be rare - so I try to find one or make one myself.
a german guy with a 2 meters span , after 2 years of archery ... can't draw a pathetic 45 lbl bow and looking for kindergarden 20 lbl one ?
this is the case here ?
I understood correctly ?
this is the case here ?
I understood correctly ?
Crazy world, huh?
Yes you are right - although I can draw 45+ pounds with split fingers - but the problem is the different way of gripping on thumb-release wich my hand does not like.
Yes you are right - although I can draw 45+ pounds with split fingers - but the problem is the different way of gripping on thumb-release wich my hand does not like.
first read griping from Arab Archery . like Bede say already , try 69 . I meant gripig . loool .
Hi Simon.
Firstly, good on you trying, it's often the hardest part.
Secondly, as Bede mentions a thumbring is indispensable, although I know that Stephen doesn't use one.
My experience is somewhat in between. Firstly, I do recommend a leather thumb-sock. The one I use if made of deer hide. It fits very tightly on the thumb and while it is soft and won't prevent the string from digging in, it will keep blistering to a minimum.
Don't attempt drawing fully until you've become comfortable with the release. Stephen's video has a very good exercise suggestion, I've found it works very well and if you practice often you'll find you make reasonable progress.
Be patient with yourself. A 45# bow at 38" is much heavier at 30 or 33". It's a non-linear equation and the draw weight goes up the longer the draw length. I recall that Stephen's bow is 45# and in truth it's all you need as a very decent bow for recreational archery.
About your thumb. It will swell, peel, blister and look like a cross between an alien toe and an abused breakfast sausage, but it will toughen up and look better in time. Again, patient practice.
You probably don't need a lighter bow. I will say that the thinner strings, even when there's serving on them are a little painful. I've read that ancient (old world) strings were thicker and this would go some way to making the pressure on the thumb less trying.
Anyhow, from one relatively new archer to another, keep at it and go easy one yourself. Oh, and you should remove that loop from your string, it's not likely to help and will probably be a hinderance.
Sincerely,
Byron
Firstly, good on you trying, it's often the hardest part.
Secondly, as Bede mentions a thumbring is indispensable, although I know that Stephen doesn't use one.
My experience is somewhat in between. Firstly, I do recommend a leather thumb-sock. The one I use if made of deer hide. It fits very tightly on the thumb and while it is soft and won't prevent the string from digging in, it will keep blistering to a minimum.
Don't attempt drawing fully until you've become comfortable with the release. Stephen's video has a very good exercise suggestion, I've found it works very well and if you practice often you'll find you make reasonable progress.
Be patient with yourself. A 45# bow at 38" is much heavier at 30 or 33". It's a non-linear equation and the draw weight goes up the longer the draw length. I recall that Stephen's bow is 45# and in truth it's all you need as a very decent bow for recreational archery.
About your thumb. It will swell, peel, blister and look like a cross between an alien toe and an abused breakfast sausage, but it will toughen up and look better in time. Again, patient practice.
You probably don't need a lighter bow. I will say that the thinner strings, even when there's serving on them are a little painful. I've read that ancient (old world) strings were thicker and this would go some way to making the pressure on the thumb less trying.
Anyhow, from one relatively new archer to another, keep at it and go easy one yourself. Oh, and you should remove that loop from your string, it's not likely to help and will probably be a hinderance.
Sincerely,
Byron
If you want to shoot well and consistently and even master bows that are too powerful for you now, technique must be mastered. There are lots of people who can draw and shoot a strong bow, but their techniques lead to blisters and joint problems. The blisters clear up but the joint problems get worse over the years.
Shooting without a thumb guard of some sort is really an advanced technique and not for beginners. Once you have mastered the bow, you can build up the toughness of your skin to avoid damage and shoot that way.
In ancient times people used thick strings for war and target shooting. It was not to spare their thumbs. They believed thick strings were more accurate; what probably happened was that thicker strings had less stretch and were more consistent.
If you use a leather thumb guard, you need only cover that portion of your thumb that is normally covered by a thumb ring. If you want more protection, you use thicker leather. If you need less, you can use thinner leather.
Referring to the technique I mentioned earlier about clenching your fingers tight, it is written that the degree of tightness is related to the strength of the bow. The stronger the bow is, the tighter you clench the thumb and three fingers. When you are starting out, all bows feel strong.
In the beginning, practice is more important than strength. The muscles you use to pull a bow are not the same as the ones you use for weight lifting. The technique you use to efficiently transfer the strength of your body to the bowstring is different when you use three fingers and when you use your thumb. It needs practice to change from one to the other.
Shooting without a thumb guard of some sort is really an advanced technique and not for beginners. Once you have mastered the bow, you can build up the toughness of your skin to avoid damage and shoot that way.
In ancient times people used thick strings for war and target shooting. It was not to spare their thumbs. They believed thick strings were more accurate; what probably happened was that thicker strings had less stretch and were more consistent.
If you use a leather thumb guard, you need only cover that portion of your thumb that is normally covered by a thumb ring. If you want more protection, you use thicker leather. If you need less, you can use thinner leather.
Referring to the technique I mentioned earlier about clenching your fingers tight, it is written that the degree of tightness is related to the strength of the bow. The stronger the bow is, the tighter you clench the thumb and three fingers. When you are starting out, all bows feel strong.
In the beginning, practice is more important than strength. The muscles you use to pull a bow are not the same as the ones you use for weight lifting. The technique you use to efficiently transfer the strength of your body to the bowstring is different when you use three fingers and when you use your thumb. It needs practice to change from one to the other.
cut a thick piece of leather like the last object of the right (the shape of it is a gaussian bell )
[external image]
after cut thining and glueing the extremities , it must look like that :
[external image]
easy as pie .
[external image]
![[external image]](http://serbaniulian.sitesled.com/arc/rings.jpg){kind=link}
after cut thining and glueing the extremities , it must look like that :
[external image]
![[external image]](http://serbaniulian.sitesled.com/arc/leatherthumbring1.jpg){kind=link}
easy as pie .
For easy heavy bow shooting I can strongly recommend a "sugakji" style korean thumb ring ("male" ring). These are meant for use with heavy bows and there is no thumb/joint pain even with a 80+lbs bow. You can order one from Prof. Thomas Duvernay, then you ll have to shape it a bit to fit your thumb.
8)
8)
Osmiu's last thumb ring from leather is a good design and it works.
If you work with vegetable tanned leather, you can wet it, put it on your thumb, bend your thumb and then let it dry with the built in curve of your own thumb.
If you work with vegetable tanned leather, you can wet it, put it on your thumb, bend your thumb and then let it dry with the built in curve of your own thumb.
I think now is a good time for a big THANK YOU ALL. I went with the osmiu-leather ring, continued training, made a horn thumbring and finally got my hands on a trh turkish style bow ... and I am enjoying archery more than before all changing. I had to do some improvements with the bowgrip (incresing the size acording to my hand) and other technique points I managed along my understanding of the hein/kani book. Now my arrows are flying straight, I go on testing threetimes fletched arrows with the end of the feathers right at the nock - and so on, and so forth. So ones again - thank you atarnos for helping me out at this point - where I needed help!
There several more delicate points in mastering the thumbring technique...
1. Skin rings fitter for beginners, yes, but better take turkish style ring. It requires more labour, but result is more prominent. Sugakji requires virtually no labour - just take and shoot, after several minutes of accomodation. It also stresses thumb joint, you have to lay tumb on the ring to prevent this.
2. When clenching your fist, do not overstress the wrist joint. It must be flexible to let the string center your ring on the thumb and your wrist up to the elbow. The same as Japanese used to say "stressed but relaxed". Exactly: stressed at the fist and relaxed the wrist and up.
Imagine your wrist-elbow system as sagged cable - only the force of the string straightens it. The movement of your hand (as you say "drawing") should be performed by means of the following muscles: back of elbow-to-shoulder, back from shoulder-to-shoulder. Thus you stop dragging your string to your body and it will have some gap to your breast. Train slowly, do not try "full draw" asap, do it step by step.
3. All videos and recommendations are full of "drawing". It's okay. Like transition from sporting to shooting. There is one more way.
Stand in front of a mirror. Rais your hands up with or without bow. Just parallel. Notice, that your string hand is right above the final position of it. What you need - is just drop it down, this will be the position where your string fist must be at "full draw". Now look at your bow fist. You need to low it down, stetching it forward with the bow clenched in the "harp head grip". You do not have to draw anything, it is considerable economy of efforts (very useful in previous centuries). So, you just move your bow down, pushing down-forward (or forward-down) and low your string fist (relaxed). Do not let it creep forward after the bow, just resist it and low it down to your shoulder. Train it with or without bow, in both directions, right or left handed, no difference, you will soon see it.
4. As you attain the "zero postion" (higher - not enough, lower - too much) - you have nothing to do, but to release. That what was meant by kyudokas saying "shoot as ripe apple falls down". Nothing is left to be done. Of course, if you shoot straight, and your arrow is flying with some clearance to the bow side.
But this is the next step.
1. Skin rings fitter for beginners, yes, but better take turkish style ring. It requires more labour, but result is more prominent. Sugakji requires virtually no labour - just take and shoot, after several minutes of accomodation. It also stresses thumb joint, you have to lay tumb on the ring to prevent this.
2. When clenching your fist, do not overstress the wrist joint. It must be flexible to let the string center your ring on the thumb and your wrist up to the elbow. The same as Japanese used to say "stressed but relaxed". Exactly: stressed at the fist and relaxed the wrist and up.
Imagine your wrist-elbow system as sagged cable - only the force of the string straightens it. The movement of your hand (as you say "drawing") should be performed by means of the following muscles: back of elbow-to-shoulder, back from shoulder-to-shoulder. Thus you stop dragging your string to your body and it will have some gap to your breast. Train slowly, do not try "full draw" asap, do it step by step.
3. All videos and recommendations are full of "drawing". It's okay. Like transition from sporting to shooting. There is one more way.
Stand in front of a mirror. Rais your hands up with or without bow. Just parallel. Notice, that your string hand is right above the final position of it. What you need - is just drop it down, this will be the position where your string fist must be at "full draw". Now look at your bow fist. You need to low it down, stetching it forward with the bow clenched in the "harp head grip". You do not have to draw anything, it is considerable economy of efforts (very useful in previous centuries). So, you just move your bow down, pushing down-forward (or forward-down) and low your string fist (relaxed). Do not let it creep forward after the bow, just resist it and low it down to your shoulder. Train it with or without bow, in both directions, right or left handed, no difference, you will soon see it.
4. As you attain the "zero postion" (higher - not enough, lower - too much) - you have nothing to do, but to release. That what was meant by kyudokas saying "shoot as ripe apple falls down". Nothing is left to be done. Of course, if you shoot straight, and your arrow is flying with some clearance to the bow side.
But this is the next step.