Arrow Spine for Thumb Draw vs Finger Style
Good afternoon all!
Been lurking for a while and this is my first post, so go easy on me!
I've been shooting Recurve for 4 years now and have pretty much 'retired' from competetive shooting as I have gotten fed up of all the politics/posturing involved so I have taken up my trad bows to put the fun back into my shooting and enjoy a new challenge!
All the time I have been shooting, I have been occasionally shooting a Kassai Deer Hunnish bow and a TRH Laminate Crimean Tartar bow using a mediterranean grip. I have recently started to shoot them using a thumb ring and I must say that the difference is incredible! It feels very natural, snappy and suits the bows ( particularly the short Tartar ) a lot better.
My question is related to arrow spine for shooting off the thumb. I may be way off the mark in my observations, but this is what I have noticed in the last 3 weeks of shooting this style and would like to check if I am correct.
The arrows I have been using with the Hun bow ( 40lb ) are 30" 5/16 spined for 35-40 lb with 73gn points and shot off the fingers they leave the bow well and go straight. The arrows are long enough for me to use with the thumb loose but shot in this style, they are acting stiff and flying significantly to the right.
I would have thought that with the extra power from the few inches of extra draw they would have behaved weaker. My own explanation for this is that with the thumb release, there is less paradox as there is less 'meat' to get out of the way for the string to pass, thus introducing far less flex into the arrow inititally. To counter this and achieve true arrow flight, shooting with the thumb ring I would need arrows that are slightly weaker to allow them to flex around the bow..... is this a correct conclusion?
Thanks in advance for your time!
V
Been lurking for a while and this is my first post, so go easy on me!
I've been shooting Recurve for 4 years now and have pretty much 'retired' from competetive shooting as I have gotten fed up of all the politics/posturing involved so I have taken up my trad bows to put the fun back into my shooting and enjoy a new challenge!
All the time I have been shooting, I have been occasionally shooting a Kassai Deer Hunnish bow and a TRH Laminate Crimean Tartar bow using a mediterranean grip. I have recently started to shoot them using a thumb ring and I must say that the difference is incredible! It feels very natural, snappy and suits the bows ( particularly the short Tartar ) a lot better.
My question is related to arrow spine for shooting off the thumb. I may be way off the mark in my observations, but this is what I have noticed in the last 3 weeks of shooting this style and would like to check if I am correct.
The arrows I have been using with the Hun bow ( 40lb ) are 30" 5/16 spined for 35-40 lb with 73gn points and shot off the fingers they leave the bow well and go straight. The arrows are long enough for me to use with the thumb loose but shot in this style, they are acting stiff and flying significantly to the right.
I would have thought that with the extra power from the few inches of extra draw they would have behaved weaker. My own explanation for this is that with the thumb release, there is less paradox as there is less 'meat' to get out of the way for the string to pass, thus introducing far less flex into the arrow inititally. To counter this and achieve true arrow flight, shooting with the thumb ring I would need arrows that are slightly weaker to allow them to flex around the bow..... is this a correct conclusion?
Thanks in advance for your time!
V
It's almost inevitable that with a thumb draw you will press the arrow more against the grip than with a Mediterranean draw. The further back you draw, the stronger the inward pressure becomes. That's just great for on horseback because you are stopping the arrow from flapping around and the shooting distance is not great. But the disadvantage is the one that you point out: there will be a certain degree of 'rebound' off the limb as you release that even the 'paradox' does not eliminate.
To achieve the best trajectory for longer distance shooting you will need to try to overcome the tendency to have the draw hand tense. At the point of release, make sure that there is no inward pressure against the grip.
Croeso i ATARN, cariad.
To achieve the best trajectory for longer distance shooting you will need to try to overcome the tendency to have the draw hand tense. At the point of release, make sure that there is no inward pressure against the grip.
Croeso i ATARN, cariad.
Stephain,
Tha Cuimris agad a reir choltais :)
(apparently you have Welsh,(stated in Gaelic)
I don't seem to be getting much better with my technique, but will hopefully meet up with Jaap at Pennsic in a week or so,perhaps he can correct me a bit.
Boghadair
Tha Cuimris agad a reir choltais :)
(apparently you have Welsh,(stated in Gaelic)
I don't seem to be getting much better with my technique, but will hopefully meet up with Jaap at Pennsic in a week or so,perhaps he can correct me a bit.
Boghadair
Good thumb ring style requires minimal pressure on the nock of the arrow at full draw just before release. As Stephen wrote, in horseback archery the initial part of the draw is made easier by being able to hold the arrow against the side of the grip by pressure at the nock by the side of the index finger. Too much pressure can be a problem. In old books they write about a fault that develops where is side of the nock actually breaks.
When you reach full draw, particularly with a short bow, there is a downward pressure from the string pushing the nock of the arrow against the side of the thumb ring which acts to hold it in place. Only a tiny pressure from the index finger is necessary. If you are shooting an arrow on foot from a siper, you cannot have any pressure on the nock laterally. You must turn the drawing hand slightly so that the index finger is clear of the arrow.
Taking these points into consideration, you can choose the spine of your arrows to determine where you want the arrows to fly, left, right or centrally. Traditionally in longbow archery, the preferred flight path was in line with the centre of the bow. This has problems at long distance because the limb of the bow obscures the target. This can be compensated for by canting the bow to move the upper limb out of the way, but you lose the vertical line of the bow to help in aiming. I think that the preferred alignment was either the left or the right edge of the bow in military archery in many thumb ring using cultures. In the Middle East, the aiming by the left side of the bow was called external aiming and the aim by the right side of the bow was called internal aiming (because the archer was looking between the string and the bow).
So what does this mean for spine selection? If you select a light soft arrow, it may shoot to the left, but it will lose energy straightening out after the excessive bending that results at the beginning of its flight. As you choose increasingly stiffer arrows, the arrow moves further to the right. The pressure you put on the side of the nock can alter this to a degree, but it is unreliable because it is hard to accurately gauge how much pressure you are applying.
Most original composite bows that I have examined have little wear on the arrow pass area. There may be many explanations for this, but I think one might be that excessive pressure was not used. The comment Stephen made about the relaxation of the bow hand fingers also has an effect. If the thumb and index finger are relaxed, as the old manuals suggest, the arrow passes the bow smoothly without excessive contact. Mustafa Kani wrote that the arrow must pass as close to the bow as possible, however, so you must try to balance these two opposites.
It takes real skill and I cannot achieve it myself very often. I think most people need to experiment to get themselves used to how particular arrows behave and then choose the spine that suits them.
When you reach full draw, particularly with a short bow, there is a downward pressure from the string pushing the nock of the arrow against the side of the thumb ring which acts to hold it in place. Only a tiny pressure from the index finger is necessary. If you are shooting an arrow on foot from a siper, you cannot have any pressure on the nock laterally. You must turn the drawing hand slightly so that the index finger is clear of the arrow.
Taking these points into consideration, you can choose the spine of your arrows to determine where you want the arrows to fly, left, right or centrally. Traditionally in longbow archery, the preferred flight path was in line with the centre of the bow. This has problems at long distance because the limb of the bow obscures the target. This can be compensated for by canting the bow to move the upper limb out of the way, but you lose the vertical line of the bow to help in aiming. I think that the preferred alignment was either the left or the right edge of the bow in military archery in many thumb ring using cultures. In the Middle East, the aiming by the left side of the bow was called external aiming and the aim by the right side of the bow was called internal aiming (because the archer was looking between the string and the bow).
So what does this mean for spine selection? If you select a light soft arrow, it may shoot to the left, but it will lose energy straightening out after the excessive bending that results at the beginning of its flight. As you choose increasingly stiffer arrows, the arrow moves further to the right. The pressure you put on the side of the nock can alter this to a degree, but it is unreliable because it is hard to accurately gauge how much pressure you are applying.
Most original composite bows that I have examined have little wear on the arrow pass area. There may be many explanations for this, but I think one might be that excessive pressure was not used. The comment Stephen made about the relaxation of the bow hand fingers also has an effect. If the thumb and index finger are relaxed, as the old manuals suggest, the arrow passes the bow smoothly without excessive contact. Mustafa Kani wrote that the arrow must pass as close to the bow as possible, however, so you must try to balance these two opposites.
It takes real skill and I cannot achieve it myself very often. I think most people need to experiment to get themselves used to how particular arrows behave and then choose the spine that suits them.