comments on my form

Justin,
I am not commenting on how "Chinese" your shooting is, but I can make some observations on how your hands are behaving.

Your drawing hand has a good conformation. It looks to me as if you are pushing the tip of the thumb ring against the proximal segment of the middle finger rather than against the middle segment. This could be just an illusion caused by the angle of the pictures.

In some shots, it seems that you are pushing the arrow against the cheek. The skin is indented. This is too much pressure and can cause arrow flight problems. The shaft should only touch the face not press against it.

I am guessing with the bow hand you are using the Manchu style with the curve of flesh between the bases of the thumb and index fingers pushing against the belly of the grip while the lower three fingers hold the bow firmly. Your forearm and elbow are properly extended.

Most of the follow through, good or bad, in the drawing hand is happening after the arrow is well on its way. This should not affect your shots unless it reflects something happening earlier in the shot.

The tension in your back should make your drawing hand move backward as you release rather than consciously throwing your hand back. It is difficult to tell from the video, but I cannot see any creep so I doubt that is a problem.

There is a problem with the arrow occasionally pressing too much against the face. I think the thumb ring may a bit too thick at the tip or maybe too long. I imagine that the position of your shoulders is a compensation for shooting at 18 metres. You can achieve the same result by keeping the elbows and shoulders aligned and tilting your body at the waist.

Thanks, I'll pay special attention to those things the next time I practice.

Bede wrote:

Your drawing hand has a good conformation. It looks to me as if you are pushing the tip of the thumb ring against the proximal segment of the middle finger rather than against the middle segment. This could be just an illusion caused by the angle of the pictures.

You're right, I'm actually pressing my thumb against my middle finger's proximal joint instead of my middle finger's middle segment. I guess pressing the thumb tip against the middle finger's middle segment will make it less likely for the index finger's knuckle to interfere with the arrow nock?

Mostly good. Here are some suggestions:

1. You are holding the bow at the centre of the grip. If the bow is made in the normal way, it is designed to be gripped above centre.
2. You are pointing your bow-hand index finger at the target. I wrap my finger around the grip and try to stretch out the first joint if the thumb towards the target.
3. Immediately after the release you arrest your draw hand. Then you throw it back as an afterthought. My suggestion: release using back muscle tension and bring your draw am back in to your sides without throwing back.

I can't see your waist or feet. I don't know if there are problems there.

S

Thanks for those suggestions. Item (1) especially answers a lingering question I had at the back of my mind.

I happen to have a small set of shorter arrows I can try with (2). Then I'd have to decide whether I want to shorten the 37" arrows you saw in the video.

Still a work in progress. but I did incorporate changes to my anchor point, my draw hand follow-through, and resting the arrow above the center of the grip. I'm also using a leather thumb guard I made in the morning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ivp1rWzd-S8

The bow is spinning faster now, but I don't know whether it was because the leather thumb guard is giving me a faster release or because I'm resting the arrow above center.

More importantly, my shots have stopped veering to the right.

Good progress. After completing the shot, both the bow hand and the draw hand come back to your sides (not just the draw hand.) If you don't move in unison, your horse may veer to one side.
The rotation of the bow following release is a Japanese preoccupation. It's not worth focussing on as it has no practical purpose. If the arrow's gone, it's gone.
The levelling of the bow before the shot was a Chinese practice in the Tang Dynasty - take it or leave it.

Stephen Selby wrote:

The rotation of the bow following release is a Japanese preoccupation. It's not worth focussing on as it has no practical purpose. If the arrow's gone, it's gone.

Hmm, interesting... I guess I thought bow rotation was part of the Chinese infantry or ceremonial archery canon (e.g., your CTAS demo, 2:40 of http://ori.hangzhou.com.cn/ornews/conte ... 295004.htm ). But I can see how that's impractical for cavalry.

Stephen Selby wrote:

The levelling of the bow before the shot was a Chinese practice in the Tang Dynasty - take it or leave it.

It's also interesting that you bring this up. Towards the end of practice, I actually had a pretty good round when I drew the bow with the arrow at shoulder level or pointing forward-down. I was thinking of working on that some more, since it's a more direct approach (and would avoiding scaring the horse by raising the arms up).

Yes, I demonstrate it. But I wanted to give some comment behind it, because it's not necessary to copy what I do exactly. I wanted to convey that it is a 'take it or leave it element'. It is not mentioned after the Song dynasty and I think that Qi Jiguang and his followers disapproved of it.

Ah, so I actually learned the "relaxed hand = spinning" from someone else. But if I understand correctly, this is one of the differences between Wang Ju's embellished style vs. Qi Jiguang's direct style.

But yeah, it's a dilemma. When I perform the spinning, people say "oh that looks like Kyudo," and I end up explaining how Tang ceremonial archery influenced Kyudo. Sigh... I'd like to avoid the comparison if possible, heh.

Let me give the non-spinning a good practice...

This is the latest: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqhYQ49QgwA . The first two shots grouped together, but the last shot landed a little high.

I think I'm starting to get a better feel for differentiating a clean-feeling release (that makes the shot stay centered) from a dirty, high-friction release (that makes the shot veer up/right). The margin of error for my draw hand/arm feels pretty small, but w/ practice I hope I can make it consistent.

I hope the stancework is ok. Maybe I should try different variations to simulate being on horseback.

Much softer release now. Feet look about right. Get someone to look at the angle of your arrow at the grip. It still looks as if your hand on the grip is a bit too low.

Stephen Selby wrote:

Much softer release now. Feet look about right. Get someone to look at the angle of your arrow at the grip. It still looks as if your hand on the grip is a bit too low.

Aye, thanks.

It does look like the arrow is not completely perpendicular with the string at pre-draw --- my hand being a little low on the grip causes the arrow to point slightly downward.

Fwiw, I don't use a nocking point on my string, thinking it would be more hardcore. I didn't recall any mention of nocking points in the references, so I figured it was more traditional to leave them off. If this is indeed the case, I will have to drill myself to keep the arrow perpendicular with the string at pre-draw.

What you want to avoid is the arrow pointing up. Down a bit is not a problem. I still think you need to have the top of your hand near the top of the grip - not in the centre.

can we get help form more Modern science and technology?use more Sensor on Joint and Muscle amd eye and target and arrow to build a 3d movie show and studay, i see a movie show wushu by Modern science ,maybe they are Interested in archery, maybe it is a so easy we are not happy too easy :D in fact i see lots give up Traditional archery

I think Stephen's point about the hand position on the grip is valid, but with modern bows you really have to check the tiller of the bow to make sure where the arrow should go. This involves putting the bow on a tiller stick and drawing it with various support positions on the grip, moving the arrow nock on the string to compensate.

Sometimes bowyers simply make the bow to conform to normal Mediterranean draws. In my experience, the thumb draw allows the arrow position on the string to be much nearer to perpendicular than the three finger approach. At the same time, it also localises the pressure on the string to a narrow section of the string. This means that there is a bit of tuning of the archer's style required for each bow.

One additional advantage of Stephen's suggestion is that it can increase the effective brace height by a centimetre or so. This can affect the arrow flight slightly.

Here it is with the new grip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQJv7Gd7tN8

I was pretty tired today, so my grouping wasn't so consistent (the release may look a bit rough). Nonetheless, I tried to emphasize loading more tension into my back muscles for the release.

This is very subjective, but look for example at your release (0:20 - 0:22 seconds into your latest video). At the point of release your bow arm should be still; but actually you drop it sharply down and to the left. That may be due to the high position of your full draw. Try to focus on releasing without any movement of the bow arm.

Yeah, you raise a good point about the level of the draw. I feel like I exert more effort keeping the arrow at cheek level. So I had to try shooting at shoulder level: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKNVkAyh9QE

I'm giving serious consideration to developing the shoulder-level draw further. Pros: the draw felt easier because the shoulders and elbows were aligned, and it was easier to keep the bow arm still during the shot. Cons: my sight picture is quite different now --- I had to rely more on intuition to "throw" the arrow. I imagine this becomes less of an issue at longer distances.

Btw, let me know if you're getting tired of these posts.

Yeah! Look at 0.22 seconds on that video and contrast it with the other ones. How was the accuracy?

I think a lot of learners will find this discussion very instructive. Keep it coming.

Stephen Selby wrote:

Yeah! Look at 0.22 seconds on that video and contrast it with the other ones. How was the accuracy?

Haha, I think my accuracy is a work in progress. For those two arrows at 25 yds, I felt dialed-in. For the rounds at 10 and 15, I had to spare the first few arrows for calibration before I could form anything that resembled a group.

I found that my best rounds occurred when I was being less analytical and more intuitive with my aiming. If I focused too much on the minutiae of my sight picture (e.g., "align this edge of the bow w/ that line of the target"), I risked ignoring arm/hand alignment and having a poor shot. If I focused more on the feel of my arm/hand alignment and thought "this feels like the arrow will land at that location," I had a better shot.

I'm a ways off from developing "archer's vision," but I'd welcome any tips on additional drills to develop instinctive aiming. I know people like to say "think of shooting an arrow like throwing a ball." But with throwing you _feel_ the ball's acceleration, whereas with a bow you're one step removed from feeling the arrow's acceleration. I guess a lot of instinctive shooting is overcoming this disconnect.

I think you're basically there. The rest is repetition and experience. Do that both while standing and walking and hopping on one leg. Also, see if you can get a chance to shoot out to 100 yards so that you can really see the arrow fly and your brain can log onto what is actually happening. You won't hit the target; but that's not the point. The point is to understand why you miss. As in Lie Zi, the important thing is not hit hit the target but to be able to understand why you hit it when you do.

The walking and hopping drills have been useful. They definitely force me to work on my nocking ability (to make it faster and more secure) and to learn to keep a clear head under those circumstances.

My best grouping of the day was walking to shoot a target at 25 yds, walking left-to-right, trying to loose a shot before walking past an obstruction [1st photo]. Walking to shoot targets at 10 yds and 25 yds in sequence yielded sloppy groups at 10 and a no group at 25. A work in progress, for sure.

Also, as a result of the walking drill, I unconsciously (at the time) adjusted my draw hand technique so that my thumb touched below the middle finger's middle segment and my hand tilted with pinky below index [2nd, 3rd photos]. This positioning actually felt comfortable, with less of index finger crowding against the arrow nock. Because walking didn't give me time to think, my hand naturally assumed this position.

I decided to shorten my arrows to 35" in length so that I could hold my bow hand in a fist (rather than pointing my index finger). I've also started holding my draw hand a little bit away from my body to avoid the string hitting my left pectoral muscle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YLOtlDtamQ

All in all, this feels more relaxed to me, especially since I'm no longer straining my bow hand to extend the index finger.

I dont know very much, but it looks great. I should start practicing thumb draw also. I tried to draw my 45# recurve with thumb, and decided that for thumb technique I'll need 30# bow. It was imposible.
On moving practice... I like to walk away from target and shoot backwards. It's actualy easier than shooting when walking side to side.

Greetings from Canada!

Just saw some of your most recent videos, was impressed by ur form.

I have the same bow as you but i didnt manage to shoot often.

How does that 60lb snake-han bow perform? Also I noticed in this one

http://www.youtube.com/user/jtma04#p/u/2/yua7TkRlWRM

you used a different bow, what bow is it?

Aye, my form is still a work in progress, but thank you.

The snake bow feels good, solid. Initially the string was too long, so I made a shorter string for it, which in turn reduced the vibrations hand shock during the shot (this makes sense since getting the right brace height for your bow is critical). I'm expecting new shipments of bows w/in the next month, so I'll have a better reference for comparison at that point.

The second bow is an Entry-Level Han Bow, 35# I believe.

and what is the shipment of new bow you are waiting for?
From the same bow maker?

I'm waiting for a Qing bow and a Qinghai bow from Zhang Li (40# each). I'm also expecting a Qing bow from Peter Dekker (at 60#).

Nice. How did you get the bow from Peter Dekker? I searched, but found nothing.