How to hold arows in bow hand?
As the title suggests iI am hoping somebody can help with the correct way to hold multiple arrows in the bow hand. I was breifly shown how to hold 3 arrows and have been practising a lot! However I just can't seem to figure out a good way of holding more than 3? I can shoot 3 arrows in around 10 - 15 seconds now.
I think there are some Youtube videos to illustrate it. I found it uncomfortable (I learned directly from Kassai Lajos), and the Chinese didn't use that method, anyway.
I can't find anything on youtube? Are there any books you could recommend? I also find it uncomfortable but figured it was because I was using the wrong technique.
Basically, the arrows are held in the bow-hand against the grip, just below the fletching, slightly fanning out and with each arrow nock slightly above the other, and with the points down.
It is then a matter of learning to grasp the next arrow by the nock and rotate it onto the string. So if you have a brass string nock, the arrow will be nocked above the string nock and not below it as with western archery. It is a bit easier to do it with a Mediterranean draw (Kassai's way) than with a thumb draw (Lucas Novotny's way), which calls for an extra small movement.
Holding multiple arrows against the bow is very error-prone, which is why Chinese writers always recommended against it on the battlefield.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yorHswhzrU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G86x-k-oZ4g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVYyEg3N9nI
It is then a matter of learning to grasp the next arrow by the nock and rotate it onto the string. So if you have a brass string nock, the arrow will be nocked above the string nock and not below it as with western archery. It is a bit easier to do it with a Mediterranean draw (Kassai's way) than with a thumb draw (Lucas Novotny's way), which calls for an extra small movement.
Holding multiple arrows against the bow is very error-prone, which is why Chinese writers always recommended against it on the battlefield.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yorHswhzrU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G86x-k-oZ4g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVYyEg3N9nI
I love this forum because some guys here do know. Archery, history and science. I read every day but rarely I dare to write something.
Well, when comes about Kassai, I can brief all his activity in two words: circus and money.
He does not made even the smallest effort to get close to what real archery it was.
Blame me.
Well, when comes about Kassai, I can brief all his activity in two words: circus and money.
He does not made even the smallest effort to get close to what real archery it was.
Blame me.
Give the man a break. He actually was almost the father of the horseback archery revival. I don't agree with all his methods; but he focusses on the most important issue: that the horseback archer needs total control of and faith in his horse. Too many people fail to follow that teaching.
Also, I forgive circus and money. He and I are not as young as we were. Who is going to pay for a retired horseback archer's geriatric care? And it's the circus that brought horseback archery to the masses instead of hiding it away for a few curious academics. That's the cruel world we live in.
Also, I forgive circus and money. He and I are not as young as we were. Who is going to pay for a retired horseback archer's geriatric care? And it's the circus that brought horseback archery to the masses instead of hiding it away for a few curious academics. That's the cruel world we live in.
Thanks for the links on youtube but they don't really show how to orrientate the arrows in the bow hand? This is what I am struggling with? Eg when I try to hold more than 3 the rest of the aqrrows tend to ''rotate' themselves when I remove one, so when you go for the next arrow the nock isn't orrientated correctly. Surely somebody has doccumented how to do this? Kassi holds many arrows!
Stephen: It's not what he does which bugs me to be honest. After all, plenty of people shoot a light bow, and his speed shooting is very impressive to watch.
What irks me is occasionally when you watch a history documentary on TV, and he is quoted as the ultimate authority on horseback archery, saying that 30 - 40 # is the absolute maximum mounted archers would have used.
Mikekeswick: I was showed a Kassai way by someone living nearby. He has nocks that are splayed at the ends and you can feel when they are oriented right. The splay digs into your proximal first finger interphalangeal joint. Then it is aligned more or less ok.
What irks me is occasionally when you watch a history documentary on TV, and he is quoted as the ultimate authority on horseback archery, saying that 30 - 40 # is the absolute maximum mounted archers would have used.
Mikekeswick: I was showed a Kassai way by someone living nearby. He has nocks that are splayed at the ends and you can feel when they are oriented right. The splay digs into your proximal first finger interphalangeal joint. Then it is aligned more or less ok.
I'll try and do this myself over the weekend to see if I can remember. But if by 'nock not oriented correctly' you mean that the cock feather is oriented wrong, then that's nothing you can do anything about.
I dont try to minimize his efforts and his merits, I was myself caught into archery via hungarian archery and with a magyar bow at first. My luck was this forum which got me into the dark side of the archery :D
What is the purpose of geting people into archery if he is running into a wrong direction with a cohort of blinds partisans following him?
What is the purpose of geting people into archery if he is running into a wrong direction with a cohort of blinds partisans following him?
You mean... it doesn't matter how you orient the feathers? :shock:Stephen Selby wrote:
But if by 'nock not oriented correctly' you mean that the cock feather is oriented wrong, then that's nothing you can do anything about.
Mike,
Take a look on Kassai's website, I remember seeing in detail (clear photographs) how to grasp up to 10 arrows. If it's not on his site then it is definitely one of the links to other Kassai style sites.
I can see the point that Ginni is making, to some degree but I have to agree with Stephen, as I also feel there are far more positives than negatives about what he has done. Anyway, even the most enlightened of us cannot be 100% certain when it comes to bows, weights, techniques, etc of all these horsearcher cultures. He has certainly introduced horsearchery to a lot of people, this has to be a good thing no matter what.
Ginni, surely you mean by coming here you saw the light :idea: ? Here in Wales traditional archers see the dark side as ..... COMPOUNDS :shock:
Justin,
A friend of mine deliberately nocked his arrows the wrong way when he tried my Turkish bow. It was something he tried and found it gave him better results :?
Given the relatively short distances involved and the speed of horsearchery, I'm assuming Stephen means better nocked incorrectly than not at all.
Take a look on Kassai's website, I remember seeing in detail (clear photographs) how to grasp up to 10 arrows. If it's not on his site then it is definitely one of the links to other Kassai style sites.
I can see the point that Ginni is making, to some degree but I have to agree with Stephen, as I also feel there are far more positives than negatives about what he has done. Anyway, even the most enlightened of us cannot be 100% certain when it comes to bows, weights, techniques, etc of all these horsearcher cultures. He has certainly introduced horsearchery to a lot of people, this has to be a good thing no matter what.
Ginni, surely you mean by coming here you saw the light :idea: ? Here in Wales traditional archers see the dark side as ..... COMPOUNDS :shock:
Justin,
A friend of mine deliberately nocked his arrows the wrong way when he tried my Turkish bow. It was something he tried and found it gave him better results :?
Given the relatively short distances involved and the speed of horsearchery, I'm assuming Stephen means better nocked incorrectly than not at all.
Orda, here we say the dark side to the other side of the bow, that where the arrow stands when shooting with a thumbring :lol:
This is the opposite side by comparison with regular olimpic style most common here.
So, if the compound shooting is the machinist side of archery (remember Wild Wild West, Kenneth Branagh surely would like a compound, maybe one overpowered with some small steam engine), shooting with thumbring is the dark side of traditional archery... :twisted:
I am exaggerating with Lajos Kassai of course, but I hate any form of fanaticism. I am afraid the guy will become a sort of big guru of archery who keep the supreme truth.
This is the opposite side by comparison with regular olimpic style most common here.
So, if the compound shooting is the machinist side of archery (remember Wild Wild West, Kenneth Branagh surely would like a compound, maybe one overpowered with some small steam engine), shooting with thumbring is the dark side of traditional archery... :twisted:
I am exaggerating with Lajos Kassai of course, but I hate any form of fanaticism. I am afraid the guy will become a sort of big guru of archery who keep the supreme truth.
What I have been discussing with you is rapid shooting for horseback archery. It is unlikely that the target distance will be greater than 30 metres. To be very frank, I have never observed any difference in outcome due to 'correct' orientation of the cock feather (which doesn't hit the limb anyway unless the fletching is far too high); but in any case, it is unlikely to have an effect at such a short distance as 30 metres. On horseback, you will never have a chance to check; but Beiter nocks sometimes have a feeler tab that you can use if you are crafty.Justin Ma wrote:
You mean... it doesn't matter how you orient the feathers? :shock:Stephen Selby wrote:
But if by 'nock not oriented correctly' you mean that the cock feather is oriented wrong, then that's nothing you can do anything about.
On FITA archery, where very fine tolerances may affect consistency, there would be an advantage in ensuring that all arrows are nocked the same way, whether 'correctly' or 'incorrectly'.
I believe that is why the Byzantines had four fletch and the feathers were cut to 1/4". They also carried their arrows bodkin up in their quivers for "speed loading".
That's verry interesting. But on what sources do you base this statement ?
Some people - whether Byzantines or others - have four fletches. I can't see how that would affect the consistency or accuracy of their shooting. Also I can't see what benefit in loading speed would be gained from having the points upward (I agree that they are shown that way in some paintings.)jbl wrote:
I believe that is why the Byzantines had four fletch and the feathers were cut to 1/4". They also carried their arrows bodkin up in their quivers for "speed loading".
Bodkins are sharp. They were also covered in shit or poison to give them added toxicity if they created a wound. On the whole, they would be better pointing away from the hand of a speed shooter. :oops:
This information is from "Byzantine Cavalryman C.900-1204" by Timothy Dawson published by Osprey. I have also read the same information in others sources about the Byzantines. Emperor Ioannes (II) Kommenos died from septicaemia as a result of piercing his own hand. Again when we think of ancient archery we have to think these warriors trained with these weapons since early childhood and accidents like this were probably few and far between.
As far as four low profile fletching I think this was used because you never had to worry about how you knocked the arrow. The Byzantines also were known to use a thumb draw.
As far as four low profile fletching I think this was used because you never had to worry about how you knocked the arrow. The Byzantines also were known to use a thumb draw.
The Byzantines did use the closed quiver some of the time and this did have the points upward. However, these quivers were built in such a way to prevent the hand from coming directly down on the points. The foot of the arrow was grasped from the side. This is not apparent in many modern illustrations, including some in Osprey publications , which have misinterpreted quiver size orientation and use. Tim's book, as I remember it, did not make this mistake.
Closed quivers are not designed for fast shooting. Instead they are designed to protect the arrows from the elements. Arrows used in the closed quiver did not have barbs (from archaeological sources and paintings) nor do I think they were poisoned or contaminated. Rust would have been the result and sharpening arrowheads would have been risky. This does not mean all arrowheads were at the same level of cleanliness and it was not intentional.
The accidental death of a soldier from an arrow wound is neither unlikely nor surprising. An arrow shot into the ground and retrieved would potentially be contaminated by tetanus (horses were a source) and other dangerous bacteria. The fact that the soldier could be the emperor shows that hygiene was not what we would like to see. Others like Henry V of England survived serious arrow wounds.
Closed quivers are not designed for fast shooting. Instead they are designed to protect the arrows from the elements. Arrows used in the closed quiver did not have barbs (from archaeological sources and paintings) nor do I think they were poisoned or contaminated. Rust would have been the result and sharpening arrowheads would have been risky. This does not mean all arrowheads were at the same level of cleanliness and it was not intentional.
The accidental death of a soldier from an arrow wound is neither unlikely nor surprising. An arrow shot into the ground and retrieved would potentially be contaminated by tetanus (horses were a source) and other dangerous bacteria. The fact that the soldier could be the emperor shows that hygiene was not what we would like to see. Others like Henry V of England survived serious arrow wounds.