Transition from Assyrian style bow to the Damascene bow
Welcome !أهلا وسهلا
I don't know whether there was anything off a "transition" from the Assyrian composite bow toward the Damascene bow which had much in common with Persian and Turkish bow design. I am also not sure if the term "Damascene bow" is correct, we could also term it the Arab or "Saracene" bow. Anyway,Damascene bow sounds quiet nice, doesn't it. I would like to gather more information on this. Since when where Syrian bows fitted with attached rigid siyah's as in Central Asian bows.........I would like to find out more by discussing this as some of you may know more about the topic. Myself, I am not much of a scholar,so I am not reliable as a source of information, probably this whole topic is based upon my assumption. But let us investigate. I wonder if the inhabitants
of the Arab Peninsula did develop it on their own or trough contact with Huns, Parthians or other step people, trough trade or capture at warfare...........
Besides it might be interesting to find out more about Damascene bowyers who where said to be quiet famous amongst Arabs as was the well known Damascene steel. The mentioning of Arab/Syrian/Iraqi manufacture of composite bows is more or less shunned for reasons unknown to me.
I don't know whether there was anything off a "transition" from the Assyrian composite bow toward the Damascene bow which had much in common with Persian and Turkish bow design. I am also not sure if the term "Damascene bow" is correct, we could also term it the Arab or "Saracene" bow. Anyway,Damascene bow sounds quiet nice, doesn't it. I would like to gather more information on this. Since when where Syrian bows fitted with attached rigid siyah's as in Central Asian bows.........I would like to find out more by discussing this as some of you may know more about the topic. Myself, I am not much of a scholar,so I am not reliable as a source of information, probably this whole topic is based upon my assumption. But let us investigate. I wonder if the inhabitants
of the Arab Peninsula did develop it on their own or trough contact with Huns, Parthians or other step people, trough trade or capture at warfare...........
Besides it might be interesting to find out more about Damascene bowyers who where said to be quiet famous amongst Arabs as was the well known Damascene steel. The mentioning of Arab/Syrian/Iraqi manufacture of composite bows is more or less shunned for reasons unknown to me.
Describtion of a possible Hitite or Assyrian Bow dating 1275 to 1208B.C
Please follow the URL to read more about it:
[url] http://www.student.utwente.nl/~sagi/art ... omposites/
Please follow the URL to read more about it:
[url] http://www.student.utwente.nl/~sagi/art ... omposites/
Alam,
The Assyrian bow was supplanted in the Near East by the Scythian bow in the period between 700 BC to 300 BC. The Persian bow of the Achaemenids was probably the last relative of the angular composite bow to survive and you can seen on the walls of Persepolis the two types of bow in proximity. The cavalrymen carry bows in gorytoi and the infantry carry them over their shoulders. I call one group cavalry because they are wearing trousers and the others infantry because they are wearing long robes, despite them all being shown on foot.
Subsequently a bow with rigid ears appeared some time after the Arsacids conquered Iran and Mesopotamia in the last two centuries BC. This was refined and developed by the later Sassanids and newer Turkish designs penetrated from the steppe. Later the Mongols bought even more advanced designs possibly including the recurved tip to the siyah. The bows kept being developed right down to the nineteenth century, though some of the modifications were to make them more suitable for sport.
The pre-Islamic Arabs were a trading people and would have been exposed to many types of bows. Part of Arabia was governed for a while by the Sassanids which would have allowed the Arabs to see the latest Persian equipment. You can add to this the fact that Arab leaders were prominent on both sides during the wars between Rome and Persia so they were in a good position to see what was happening in archery technology.
The Assyrian bow was supplanted in the Near East by the Scythian bow in the period between 700 BC to 300 BC. The Persian bow of the Achaemenids was probably the last relative of the angular composite bow to survive and you can seen on the walls of Persepolis the two types of bow in proximity. The cavalrymen carry bows in gorytoi and the infantry carry them over their shoulders. I call one group cavalry because they are wearing trousers and the others infantry because they are wearing long robes, despite them all being shown on foot.
Subsequently a bow with rigid ears appeared some time after the Arsacids conquered Iran and Mesopotamia in the last two centuries BC. This was refined and developed by the later Sassanids and newer Turkish designs penetrated from the steppe. Later the Mongols bought even more advanced designs possibly including the recurved tip to the siyah. The bows kept being developed right down to the nineteenth century, though some of the modifications were to make them more suitable for sport.
The pre-Islamic Arabs were a trading people and would have been exposed to many types of bows. Part of Arabia was governed for a while by the Sassanids which would have allowed the Arabs to see the latest Persian equipment. You can add to this the fact that Arab leaders were prominent on both sides during the wars between Rome and Persia so they were in a good position to see what was happening in archery technology.
Bede,
I was hoping by myself that you where posting a reply on this as I start to
realize (I know Atarn net only since one week), that you are a true Ocean
of knowledge. You have explained a lot, if not all. But lets not stop here!!!
I find there is being to little information on this in the net. You said the Assyrian composite bow was replaced by the Scythian bow. Was this
used by Greeks as well? And the Arsacids, where they Parthians? There is a part in the Qur'an where a short reference is made to a (Sassanide) Persian bow:
-----------------------------------------------------
[quote]-Once in the battlefield,Rasul ?ullah
(sallallahu alayhi wasallam) saw a
Mujahid with a Persian bow in his hand.
Rasulullah (sallallahu alayhi wasallam)
asked: "What is this?" When the Sahaab
replied that it was a Persian bow and
that it fired arrows with greater accuracy,
Nabi-e-Kareem (sallallahu alayhi wasallam)
ordered him to throw away the bow and to
take an Arab horn bow-[/unquote]
---------------------------------------------------------
-Rasul ullah & Nabi e Kareem both refer to
Prophet Muhammadh(peace be upon him)-
-----------------------------------------------------------
The arabic expression" shoo hatha? " or "what is this?",does not necessaryly mean that one doesn't recognize the subject of inquiry, but
it can also mean"why are you doing so?","what do you mean by that?"....
For sure the Prophet(peace be upon him) did recognize it as a Persian bow, as he has travelled a lot and was very font of archery as well.
Wahabi Muslims often take up this line to stress the importance not to depend to much upon products of "kuufireen" or non-believers, but to develope their own sciences so that there wouldn't be a need of dependance.Anyway, I don't want to break loose a religious discussion
here, I just found it interesting as a persian bow was mentioned.
To come back to the general discussion, it would be interesting to find
out more about the developements made during the early Mameluck
period. I believe the sole supply of Mameluck slaves where Kipshak
turks at the initial stages (later on also people from the Caucasus region).
The Kipchaks must have been a tribe that heavily relied upon horse archery.Now since there was the practice of capturing artisans(bowyers?) as well I wonder how much that would have contributed to the development of the bow itself as well as on Arab archery in general.
Again, all of this are mere assumptions..........
Greetings & Salaam
I was hoping by myself that you where posting a reply on this as I start to
realize (I know Atarn net only since one week), that you are a true Ocean
of knowledge. You have explained a lot, if not all. But lets not stop here!!!
I find there is being to little information on this in the net. You said the Assyrian composite bow was replaced by the Scythian bow. Was this
used by Greeks as well? And the Arsacids, where they Parthians? There is a part in the Qur'an where a short reference is made to a (Sassanide) Persian bow:
-----------------------------------------------------
[quote]-Once in the battlefield,Rasul ?ullah
(sallallahu alayhi wasallam) saw a
Mujahid with a Persian bow in his hand.
Rasulullah (sallallahu alayhi wasallam)
asked: "What is this?" When the Sahaab
replied that it was a Persian bow and
that it fired arrows with greater accuracy,
Nabi-e-Kareem (sallallahu alayhi wasallam)
ordered him to throw away the bow and to
take an Arab horn bow-[/unquote]
---------------------------------------------------------
-Rasul ullah & Nabi e Kareem both refer to
Prophet Muhammadh(peace be upon him)-
-----------------------------------------------------------
The arabic expression" shoo hatha? " or "what is this?",does not necessaryly mean that one doesn't recognize the subject of inquiry, but
it can also mean"why are you doing so?","what do you mean by that?"....
For sure the Prophet(peace be upon him) did recognize it as a Persian bow, as he has travelled a lot and was very font of archery as well.
Wahabi Muslims often take up this line to stress the importance not to depend to much upon products of "kuufireen" or non-believers, but to develope their own sciences so that there wouldn't be a need of dependance.Anyway, I don't want to break loose a religious discussion
here, I just found it interesting as a persian bow was mentioned.
To come back to the general discussion, it would be interesting to find
out more about the developements made during the early Mameluck
period. I believe the sole supply of Mameluck slaves where Kipshak
turks at the initial stages (later on also people from the Caucasus region).
The Kipchaks must have been a tribe that heavily relied upon horse archery.Now since there was the practice of capturing artisans(bowyers?) as well I wonder how much that would have contributed to the development of the bow itself as well as on Arab archery in general.
Again, all of this are mere assumptions..........
Greetings & Salaam
Alam,
The Arsacids were the founding dynasty of the Parthian state. They were named after a king called Arsaces. The major conquests in Iran and the Near East were undertaken by his descendent, Mithridates. These are the Greek forms of the names. I think in Pehlevi they were something like Arshak and Mihrdat.
The Greeks used the Scythian bow extensively. They preferred the short Western Scythian form, but there are artworks from Magna Graecia showing larger bows with longer draws that look more like the Xinjiang bows.
There is an implication is some Roman sources that the Sassanid bows were not as powerful as the new types of bows the Romans were copying from the steppe. The Sassanids were renown for shooting huge numbers of arrows rapidly. Perhaps the Quranic reference is not only about self-reliance, but also reflects a judgement on the effectiveness of the bow. Perhaps the Arabs preferred shooting heavier arrows like the Romans.
It is interesting that the Arabic expression and the English translation share the same double meaning. "What's this?" can also be an expression of surprise that the thing is question is present in the place it is found.
The Kipchak or Kumans were the principle source of slave soldiers in the early Mamluk Sultinate in Egypt, but there was also recruitment of Khwarazmians and renegade Mongols. They undoubtedly bought the latest technology with them. Weapon makers were valued everywhere in the Mediaeval world.
The Arsacids were the founding dynasty of the Parthian state. They were named after a king called Arsaces. The major conquests in Iran and the Near East were undertaken by his descendent, Mithridates. These are the Greek forms of the names. I think in Pehlevi they were something like Arshak and Mihrdat.
The Greeks used the Scythian bow extensively. They preferred the short Western Scythian form, but there are artworks from Magna Graecia showing larger bows with longer draws that look more like the Xinjiang bows.
There is an implication is some Roman sources that the Sassanid bows were not as powerful as the new types of bows the Romans were copying from the steppe. The Sassanids were renown for shooting huge numbers of arrows rapidly. Perhaps the Quranic reference is not only about self-reliance, but also reflects a judgement on the effectiveness of the bow. Perhaps the Arabs preferred shooting heavier arrows like the Romans.
It is interesting that the Arabic expression and the English translation share the same double meaning. "What's this?" can also be an expression of surprise that the thing is question is present in the place it is found.
The Kipchak or Kumans were the principle source of slave soldiers in the early Mamluk Sultinate in Egypt, but there was also recruitment of Khwarazmians and renegade Mongols. They undoubtedly bought the latest technology with them. Weapon makers were valued everywhere in the Mediaeval world.
This isn't directly connected to the Damscene bow but
a short intermezzo on Asian history for anyone interested:
Nation of Archers:
History of Tatars
Tamerlan(timur)
[url] http://rbedrosian.com/gaint.htm
[url] http://rbedrosian.com/hetum1.htm
[url] http://rbedrosian.com/tm1.htm
....this is a quiet anti-muslim way of describing, but they give an account of movements in the Middle East & Central Asia which is quiet interesting to read as they are old Armenian texts(translated)
If you are on the site, please tick on"continue to Translation" at the bottom
of the page......
(the term"Tatar has been widely used in above texts,the following link will
explain who they where in detail)
[url] http://www.angelfire.com/on/paksoy/ozkaz.html
[url]
a short intermezzo on Asian history for anyone interested:
Nation of Archers:
History of Tatars
Tamerlan(timur)
[url] http://rbedrosian.com/gaint.htm
[url] http://rbedrosian.com/hetum1.htm
[url] http://rbedrosian.com/tm1.htm
....this is a quiet anti-muslim way of describing, but they give an account of movements in the Middle East & Central Asia which is quiet interesting to read as they are old Armenian texts(translated)
If you are on the site, please tick on"continue to Translation" at the bottom
of the page......
(the term"Tatar has been widely used in above texts,the following link will
explain who they where in detail)
[url] http://www.angelfire.com/on/paksoy/ozkaz.html
[url]
Bede,
Have you noted the two pictures of an Arab bow that I attached? (The one
up and this one) I was asking myself who has painted those and whether those where painted solely after the text(by the translators) or if they where
already part of the the original text of Tayguga al Ashrafi's -"Kitab ghunyat at-tullab fi marifat ramy an-mushshab".I am sure you know more about this.
Greetings & Salaam
Have you noted the two pictures of an Arab bow that I attached? (The one
up and this one) I was asking myself who has painted those and whether those where painted solely after the text(by the translators) or if they where
already part of the the original text of Tayguga al Ashrafi's -"Kitab ghunyat at-tullab fi marifat ramy an-mushshab".I am sure you know more about this.
Greetings & Salaam
Alam,
The first one is a Baskhir bow used to illustrate the reinforced nock and the string bridge.
The second one is a generic bow based on Taybugha's bow description, where he specified the bow type he preferred. A copy was made by Edward McEwen and it proved to be very effective even at low weights. I will get you the details from the published book.
The first one is a Baskhir bow used to illustrate the reinforced nock and the string bridge.
The second one is a generic bow based on Taybugha's bow description, where he specified the bow type he preferred. A copy was made by Edward McEwen and it proved to be very effective even at low weights. I will get you the details from the published book.
So youre saying that the "Sassanid" bow is the persian bow mentioned in the Quran passage? And why would one just suppose that the Persian is better than the Arab composite?
There are real problems defining bows in historical literature in the Middle East. There was a consistent tendency to quote older authors without attribution and without reference to whether the quotation contradicted what the author wrote himself. The only way to pick the quotations is to have read the earlier text and remembered it or through intimate knowledge of the forms of the language used in different ages. sometime you must analyse the process described and test it with variously shaped bows to find out if it worked. I have found this particularly so with the techniques for bracing bows. Several will not work with recurved tips and that implies they come from an earlier time.
The Sasanians and the Byzantines were the predominate military powers in the Middle East at the time of the foundation of Islam. Arab tribes acting as client states of each empire would regularly have been in contact with the armies of both states and seen and obtained equipment from them. the Sasanians had on occasion occupied part of the Arabian peninsula in pre-Islamic times and groups of Persians live in Arabia at the time of the Prophet Mohammed.
From all the quotations and collections of sayings at the time of the Prophet, it is clear that the Arabs were not fielding many horse archers; the main thrust of their archery was infantry. Even as late as the ninth century, al-Jahiz was criticising the skill of Arab archers on horse back in comparison with the Turks. Initially elite Sasanian cavalry changed sides to the Arabs after the main Sasanian army was defeated. Later Khorasanis provided horse archers, though whether they were Iranians or Arabs who had settled in Khorasan or a mixture is up to debate.
Undoubtedly there were recognisable Arab bows at the time of the Prophet of several kinds, self, reinforced and composite. It is also equally clear that the Arabs took advantage of their conquests to improve their archery equipment and update their techniques. There are numerous references to Persian and Turkish exemplars throughout Arabic archery literature.
The Sasanians and the Byzantines were the predominate military powers in the Middle East at the time of the foundation of Islam. Arab tribes acting as client states of each empire would regularly have been in contact with the armies of both states and seen and obtained equipment from them. the Sasanians had on occasion occupied part of the Arabian peninsula in pre-Islamic times and groups of Persians live in Arabia at the time of the Prophet Mohammed.
From all the quotations and collections of sayings at the time of the Prophet, it is clear that the Arabs were not fielding many horse archers; the main thrust of their archery was infantry. Even as late as the ninth century, al-Jahiz was criticising the skill of Arab archers on horse back in comparison with the Turks. Initially elite Sasanian cavalry changed sides to the Arabs after the main Sasanian army was defeated. Later Khorasanis provided horse archers, though whether they were Iranians or Arabs who had settled in Khorasan or a mixture is up to debate.
Undoubtedly there were recognisable Arab bows at the time of the Prophet of several kinds, self, reinforced and composite. It is also equally clear that the Arabs took advantage of their conquests to improve their archery equipment and update their techniques. There are numerous references to Persian and Turkish exemplars throughout Arabic archery literature.