I just spoke with Mark Hall from Kaya today and got the information on their new line of traditional bows coming in 2011.They are coming out with a biocomposite with Horn and a few other new goodies and in a moderate pricerange as well for beginners,Mark was kind enough to send me some pictures of the upcoming bows and I am attaching them here for you all to view.[/img]
PjSingh
more picks
Orda Khan
The first looks like a Korean bow with natural birch bark as well.
PjSingh
I cant post the rest of the picks,Mark informed me that the 2011 modle of the Kaya korean will be covered in birch bark to give it a more traditional look. and the biocomposite will be in the 300-400 range.
Artemiz
What good news! I'm loving my Kaya KTB so far; would be very interesting to see how their new bows compare with the more traditional constructs from Grozer, Kassai, Saluki, Spitfire, & the Hwarangs from Korea.
Artemiz
cristian_iepure
Kaya bow biocomposite :shock: with tiger tail pattern horn?! For only 300-400 usd?! Must be kidding!
WarBow
Thank you PjSingh for informing us. This is very good news!
Would you know the maximum draw length of the biocomposite horn bow? The one Ginni had delaminated at 34" draw.
Botondbow
The biocomposite technology (bows) was introduced roughly one and a half year ago by Csaba Grozer the Hungarian bowyer.
These bows consist of the following materials: the middle layers are wood, the inner layer is pressed horn, while the outer layer is pressed sinew plate. These layers are glued to the wooden plate by modern glue and the glued layer gets a fiber strengthening.
Is this newly coming bows are made similarly or do they have another construction?
jchocz
I look forward to! The traditional Korean bow but no arrow to be cut. It's weird.
Orda Khan
Look closely, the bow with the arrow pass is a different bow.
Dusan
Looks like now its time for natural and modern material mixtures... :? New bows present Korean bowmaster Do -Min Park (Hwarang bow producer ). Biocomposites hornbows , mongolian and China stile.
I wonder if Mr. Park had the Manchu bow mixed up with the Mongolian variant. Shouldn't the Manchu bow have much longer ears than the Mongolian one?
Boghadair
wow, I wants me one of those! Where can I get them? if they are made by the bowyers who make Hwarang, does that mean Thomas D will be handling them?
Boghadair
Jos?Dom
Boghadair,
Thomas is in touch with the company that makes these bows. I asked him about them a week ago, so he should have news at any moment. I wonder if these bows are already available.
Boghadair
Jose,
thanks! I guess we'll all see..
Rapsod
Mongolian bow is nice.
Thomas Duvernay
No news yet, but I'm checking on them. This winter I'll be accompanying Kaya to the ATA trade show in Indianapolis and I look forward to trying out some of their new bows. I'm also checking with Songmugung on their new line, as I've had many people ask.
daryush
Any chance they could make up Turkish / Persian / Tatar / Crab bows with the Korean technology
:D (hey, it's worth an ask)
Thomas Duvernay
One step at a time... :wink:
Dusan
Luk?? Novotn? make this bows "hibrid" (crab , Yuan and Turk ), look at his web.
WarBow
Improvement to the hybrid horn technology in terms of increasing maximum draw length from about 32" to 35" will be great!
Boghadair
35" draw....that'd be great if they can do it. Csaba's bows pretty much seem to be limited to 32".
Are these all made by Kaya, or are they original bows by Greatree? I don't see any information about them on the Kaya site, so I'm not sure.
All in all, it's very encouraging to see the expansion in product offerings.
Oppss, I am not sure if they are all made by Kaya.
The Khan hunting bow is based on the technology and material used in the KTB. However, the indicated draw weight is measured at 28" instead of 31". Therefore, the Khan's draw force versus draw length curve should be a lot steeper than the KTB.
For the Dong Yi high-end Korean bow, do we need to put it in a heat box every three days like the SMG semi-horn bow?
Thomas Duvernay
Freddie will be sending me a Khan and Dong Yi when I get back to Korea next month. I will report in detail on them at that time. However I can report that you do not have to keep the latter in a hot box. I am currently waiting for my plane, so I'll write more after I'm at a regular computer.
Thomas Duvernay
I put up an album on Facebook about the trade show. The show was mainly geared to compounds and crossbows, but there were a few recurves and longbows, besides those from Kaya/Greatree. Here is the album:
I cant post the rest of the picks,Mark informed me that the 2011 modle of the Kaya korean will be covered in birch bark to give it a more traditional look. and the biocomposite will be in the 300-400 range.
if 300-400$ for kaya horn bow,i will take 1 immidiately,where can buy it?
tiger
Thomas Duvernay
As I am now getting settled in my family's house, I'll talk a little about the ATA show and Kaya bows. Still, I'll have to leave here in a bit, so the story may come in bits and pieces.
I arrived in the States last Wednesday and Freddie Won picked me up at the Indianapolis airport. We drove to our hotel and I met all my old friends from Kaya and Greatree. We had dinner that night at a Korean restaurant they like to frequent (we went there several times the next few days). The next day was the opening of the trade show and the Kaya/Greatree booth was already set up.
The first day was the busiest. Only distributors, corporate buyers and retailers were allowed to attend. Security was tight, so if you didn't have a badge, you didn't get in.
As Kaya does a lot more than just traditional bows, Freddie and Mr. Kwak put a lot of their attention on those other matters. A compound bow press they produce probably garnered the most attention; FITA bow risers and limbs took the rest of their time.
I was in charge of explaining Korean traditional archery and the trad bows that Kaya produces. There was a lot of interest in them. Also, Greatree had a Chinese bow and Japanese yumi bow that they distribute; they also caught a lot of passerby attention. Lots of retailers and company buyers put in orders for the traditional bows; the newer ones, the Khan and Dong Yi, got most of the attention, although the Chinese bow and yumi got their fair share, too.
Briefly, I'll give you my opinion on the two new Kaya bows. In short, they are sweet! The Dong Yi, with its horn on the belly, is a very attractive bow; it is also very smooth to draw. The Khan, with its shelf, is a very good transition bow for those who like to shoot with fingers.
I gave Freddie some suggestions for improving the bows, including variations on backing for the KTB. I suggested solid, reserved colors, for the most part. However, for the hunting crowd, I suggested having a camo option. Both ideas were warmly welcomed.
Well, I have to go for now, but I'll be back. If anyone has any questions, please let me know and I'll try to answer them. If I don't have an immediate answer, I'll check on it and get back to you.
T
WarBow
Thomas, what other KTB improvements have you suggested besides the back covering color?
Thomas Duvernay
WarBow,
I'm going to hold off on talking too much about my suggestions for now, until I have a chance to put the Khan and Dong Yi, which Freddie will send me, through its paces next month. However, one small suggestion I gave was having the leather wrap on the handle on the Khan extended up over the shelf.
T
WillAdams
Has the Dynastress limb construction (patent-expired) limb construction technique ever been considered by Kaya or any other manufacturer of ``reformed bows''? It should allow expected levels of performance while allowing for an easier to string, straighter profile as is typical n the west.
I just purchased a Kaya KTB (from 3Rivers):
(also posted to ArcheryTalk --- my apologies to those seeing this twice)
Not the ``new'' 2010 wrapped finish, (a newer one for 2011? or a 2009 or earler model from old stocks? anyone know?) --- painted --- black on the belly, silver elsewhere (reminiscent of lacquered chests my parents bought in Korea). Tips are wrapped in brownish leather, string bridges are black and there're bronze cords wrapped under them. Decorative sticker on above the handle, specification below (in Korean w/ additional small black on white sticker specifying poundage --- would've been better to've written that in silver ink or at least made it white reversed out text on a black background). Handle is artificial material wrapped in leather. Quality control could be better, arrow strike plate/pass is glued on crooked and there are glue stains on the handle wrap. Signature in Chinese characters reversed out of gold paint, and maker's seal in gold. Siyahs are natural (bamboo?) and the weight is written on the top in blue ink under the finish (probably during manufacture). Very attractive though I'll have to look into upgrading to the new Dong Yi (which I only see listed at FS Discount Archery --- anyone else stocking it yet?).
Decided on 45#, which feels about right. 20 strand string --- guess I'll be using the woods w/ the Bohning classic nocks w/ it (rather than the carbons pictured).
The bow sock / quiver is a nice touch, but I'm thinking my next project will be a leather bow case and matching quiver.
Rather challenging to string. Unbraced profile is much more like a horn bow than I was expecting. Unfortunately, w/ snow and work and the kids' schedules no chance to do more than that (and write this up and take a picture) yet.
Justin Ma
What is Dynastress limb construction? And is this the construction used by one-piece, shelved traditional recurve bows on the market today? (Just basing this on a picture of a Groves bow I looked up.)
WillAdams
I don't believe anyone is making them now.
When they were made, AIUI, it was a two-step process:
- first laminations were glued up in a form creating a highly reflexed appearance like to a traditional horn bow
- once that had cured additional laminations were glued up in a form so as to give the bow a more typical profile.
Maybe bringing that back would mak it easier to sell bows in the States.
jchocz
WillAdams wrote:
I don't believe anyone is making them now.
When they were made, AIUI, it was a two-step process:
- first laminations were glued up in a form creating a highly reflexed appearance like to a traditional horn bow
- once that had cured additional laminations were glued up in a form so as to give the bow a more typical profile.
Maybe bringing that back would mak it easier to sell bows in the States.
Appearance and design of Korean bows to its strict rules. I think that Korean and Turkish bows are structurally perfect. None of the Korean manufacturers will certainly not change the design of the bows to the U.S. market or anywhere else ...
The Sock Bow (cover) / Quiver is a nice and it's traditional. He shooting with bows Kaya and Hwarang. Design bows Kaya (finish with skin) - less corresponds to the traditional hornbow. But shoots well. I'm looking forward to new models - Dong Yi.
WillAdams
It seems to me that the Kaya Khan having an arrow shelf, and the Samick SKB-50 having a typically western (straight) profile (and not having siyahs) indicates some level of interest among Korean bow manufacturers to build for the U.S. market.
Justin Ma
My impression with the Samick SKB is that Samick originally had expertise in constructing modern limbs, and when demand for a traditional Asian bow arose, they created a traditional design using their modern construction methods. That is, modern bow maker responds to demand for traditional designs.
Straight-limb recurve bows aren't exclusively a US thing, and straight (or even deflex) limbs are present on some traditional horn bows. For example, as per Stephen's JCMS article "Bows of China," northern Qing horn bows sometimes had straight limbs.
WillAdams
Interesting take on the Samick SKB.
Agree that my wording was poor --- perhaps ``straight profile (typical for Western bows)''...
jchocz
Justin Ma wrote:
My impression with the Samick SKB is that Samick originally had expertise in constructing modern limbs, and when demand for a traditional Asian bow arose, they created a traditional design using their modern construction methods. That is, modern bow maker responds to demand for traditional designs.
Straight-limb recurve bows aren't exclusively a US thing, and straight (or even deflex) limbs are present on some traditional horn bows....
Yes, I agree. This is valid for a bow-maker with no ambitions to comply with the original design and construction hornbow (for example, from Khan Kaya, SKB Korean Horse Bow ...). When the goal is to make a bow hornbow replicating the original, the appearance will be maintained around the old patterns hornbow (using modern materials - KTB Kaya, Hwarang, Dong Yi Kaya and others ...). If I like traditions, I would like more KTB Kaya (not SKB). This is my personal preference. Another archer can have a different preference.
My view is: a traditional Korean bow is similar to the Korean hornbow, not where production is carried out. Coincidentally, but Korean bows made in Korea the best.
I do not want the Korean bow that has the shape of the Mongolian bow ...
WarBow
It will be interesting to measure the draw weight of the Khan at a 32" draw.
Thomas Duvernay
WillAdams wrote:
It seems to me that the Kaya Khan having an arrow shelf, and the Samick SKB-50 having a typically western (straight) profile (and not having siyahs) indicates some level of interest among Korean bow manufacturers to build for the U.S. market.
That is exactly correct.
Here are some pics of Kaya bows from the ATA show over a week ago:
"Dong Yi" Traditional Bow "380 USD
"Khan" Korean Horse Bow 275 USD
Prices are good. Unfortunately, only 50 lbs ... I hope that time will be available models of 55 and 60lb.
WillAdams
Has anyone purchased from FS Discount Archery?
On other archery sites there are a lot of complaints of them, but I wonder as to the validity since they have a good BBB rating?
PaleoNinja
I bought my KTB from FS archery. It took a long time to ship, I didn't get it for three weeks but they had the best price, and free shipping it seemed, so i have no regrets.
PjSingh
if anyone is interested in bying the Kaya korean it is available from Andover archery $245.free shipping.It is available on ebay by them and the place is owned by the som of the man working at greattree.They will also be getting the new modles.
WarBow
PjSingh is correct. Andoverarchery has very good price.
WarBow
Has anyone used the KTB and the Khan model to hunt yet?
Angela
Hi,
the "Dong Yi" is more or less what I've been waiting for years for - although I've just bought a biocomposite Scythian, I'd certainly try out the Dong Yi. However, I can only find it in 40# or upwards. I find that a bit much for shooting from horseback, at least for me and most of my colleagues over here. My Wind Fighter was described as 35#, has an actual drwa weight of around 32# at 28". Does anyone know if one can get the Dong Yi in 30#-35#? If so, where (because everyone seems to have it only in 40# and above)?
Thanks!
jchocz
Angela wrote:
...My Wind Fighter was described as 35#, has an actual drwa weight of around 32# at 28". Does anyone know if one can get the Dong Yi in 30#-35#? If so, where (because everyone seems to have it only in 40# and above)?
Thanks!
Bow type Kaya Dong Yi (biocomposite) makes sense from 40 to 45lb and above. 35lb Wind Fighter for these purposes must suffice. However, I do not understand the importance of the bow weak (less than 35lb) for shooting from horseback. Such a bow like an enemy just tickled ....
Angela
jchocz wrote:
However, I do not understand the importance of the bow weak (less than 35lb) for shooting from horseback. Such a bow like an enemy just tickled ....
Do you shoot from horseback?
daryush
Angela wrote:
jchocz wrote:
However, I do not understand the importance of the bow weak (less than 35lb) for shooting from horseback. Such a bow like an enemy just tickled ....
Do you shoot from horseback?
I do, and I can say that 65 lb is comfortable off horseback, 80 lb is doable. 80 lb will probably become comfortable after some more months of training.
Angela
daryush wrote:
I do, and I can say that 65 lb is comfortable off horseback
I'm afraid you can't generalize that. Of all the horseback archers I know, 95% shoot 35# or under, because it's simply not necessary and is bad for technique. We met many international archers at both EOCHAs (from Mongolia, Hungary, Japan, South Korea etc.) and I didn't see any particularly strong bows (we did a lot of testing each other's bows). As far as I know, Lajos Kassai does not shoot particularly strong bows either. A friend of mine whoo was at training camp in Hungary said that on the first day, they had to exchange their normal bows for 25# training bows to improve their technique. If someone shoots 70# off horseback without ruining his style or shoulder joints, be my guest, but I can assure you that the majority of horseback archers and trainers in Germany feel it is contraproductive to shoot bows over 40# from horseback. Even those who have muscles like weightlifters and could shoot 90# if they wanted. :wink:
However, we seem to be getting off topic here: If we want to discuss this further, we should perhaps start a new thread.
jchocz
Angela wrote:
daryush wrote:
I do, and I can say that 65 lb is comfortable off horseback
I'm afraid you can't generalize that. Of all the horseback archers I know, 95% shoot 35# or under, because it's simply not necessary and is bad for technique.
Bow Kaya Dong Yi is a beautiful bow. That is the reason for buying. Dong Yi to 35lb but bring no difference to the Wind Fighter 35lb ..
My comment about the absurdity of the weak bow when shooting from a horse .... with little bow is just playing the shooting from a horse. It is not at all in dealing with real conditions. Here it was important to shoot down the enemy. But I understand ...
Beautiful woman shooting a horse - it's an experience. It's attractive. But it does not correspond to reality.
Angela
jchocz wrote:
with little bow is just playing the shooting from a horse. It is not at all in dealing with real conditions.
I'd like to see you tell Kassai or other very successful horseback archers that they are just playing shooting from horseback :lol:
Now seriously: Horseback archers in ancient times may have shot stronger bows. You can't know exactly, because not very many bow remnants have been so well preserved so as to allow an accurate estimation of draw weight, even if they did, these very few remains cannot reflect a complete culture. I can tell you one thing though: I'm a bioarchaeologist, and have seen quite a lot of Scythian skeletons and mummies (both real, images and radiological data). If someone shot bows of very high poundage, you would expect to see very prominent tendon attachment sites (entheses) around the shoulder girdle and thee upper arms. I didn't see these in any of them, although you could see the traces of a lifetime on horseback in the bones ("rider's facets" on the femoral head). So any "reports" on the strength of their bows are legend. So none of us can say for sure what the real, everyday life and war conditions during Scythian and Hunnic times were.
But you can assume that they spent much of their day practicing, whereas most of us have other professions and shoot from horseback for sport. We don't have to pierce an enemy's armour, and we cannot practice archery for 10 hours a day so as to be able to shoot 80# bows from horseback without risking our health.
Beautiful woman shooting a horse - it's an experience. It's attractive. But it does not correspond to reality.
I hope you mean shooting from horse :wink: If you mean women didn't shoot from horseback, that's very probably not correct either. But this is the wrong thread for that - if you want to carry this discussion on further, perhaps you should open a new topic.
daryush
Angela wrote:
However, we seem to be getting off topic here: If we want to discuss this further, we should perhaps start a new thread.
A new thread sounds like a good idea, although I recall a similar discussion taking place some months ago (I hope I'm not imagining it!) - about poundages, that is...
Angela
Sounds good - if you find it, perhaps you could give me the link, I will have a look later too.
jchocz
Angela wrote:
...I'd like to see you tell Kassai or other very successful horseback archers that they are just playing shooting from horseback :lol:
Now seriously: Horseback archers in ancient times may have shot stronger bows...
But you can assume that they spent much of their day practicing, whereas most of us have other professions and shoot from horseback for sport. We don't have to pierce an enemy's armour, and we cannot practice archery for 10 hours a day so as to be able to shoot 80# bows from horseback without risking our health.
So once again ... For the purpose of shooting from a horse, and the requirement to present sufficient 35lb Wind Fighter. But I understand your focus sport of archery from the saddle. Kassai is definitely a good archer. His courage to pursue a combination of archery admire. I like that the dedicated and women.
Put figure (dummy characters) into a sweater and winter jacket. Then try to ride on horseback with a bow this overshoot to 35lb. It shows you how it corresponds to reality. The figure will probably look like a hedgehog without penetration of arrows in the figure.
That's why I wrote this is a game ... But it is a nice game.
Angela
Sorry, can't agree with that. If the bow is fully drawn and accurately shot, a 35# bow can do plenty of damage, especially with arrows with hunting tips. Such a combination could go through more than just a winter jacket, believe me... Better a 35# bow drawn properly than a 60# drawn just 20", because that person can't handle it from horseback but wants to shoot a strong bow because he thinks it's sissy to shoot 35. And in the worst case, such a scenario can be potentially risky for spectators. Seen it all before.
That's why I wrote this is a game ... But it is a nice game.
Yes, it is a game. So is any kind of historical reenactment. No matter how much effort you put into your clothing of equipment, you are still playing. You don't have to kill anyone to save yourself or your family, you don't have to compromise your own health or that of your horse to survive in battle, you don't REALLY have to walk in their shoes, you don't know every aspect of their culture, their beliefs, their style of warfare. So all these discussions about "reality" and "playing" are, in my opinion, quite pointless.
You originally asked what is the point of shooting bows around 35#. I hope I have shed a bit of light.
jchocz
Angela wrote:
Sorry, can't agree with that. If the bow is fully drawn and accurately shot, a 35# bow can do plenty of damage, especially with arrows with hunting tips. Such a combination could go through more than just a winter jacket, believe me...
I was shooting the sample from the horse. The result was half arrows reflected from the target. The target was made of very soft materials .... The bow was around 35lb (interesting coincidence). Shot from a distance of approx. 10m.
Let's be glad that we can play ... Even so, I wish a beautiful shot from his horse.
Feel free to buy Kaya KTB (I own a 50 and 55lb). It's a good bow. Certainly there is variation between 30 and 35lb. Kaya Dong Yi probably more consistent with the original Korean HornBow. No other significant difference not know.
Storm
Very interesting bow comparison posted on the Czech forum:
keep in mind that Korean bows usually have the advertised poundage at around 29 to 30 inches. But the real beauty of these bows is at 32" or so.
I personally don't like it when some use the horse as an excuse for using low poundage bows. My oppinion is that a light bow is actually bad for technique. A stronger bow shows any error in technique, while a light bow hides it. Of course that in the beginning we must learn on lighter bows, but if one shoots a light bow for 10 years it looks to me that he is not really interested in archery. Also, in my oppinion, Kassai is not really a reference point in horse archery. His fast shooting technique is not even possible with hunting tips.
But as Jchocz said, it is a fun sport and it's good that it is growing. One must not forget though, that in order to be a horseback archer, it has to become an archer first.
jbl
Storm I think you have it wrong in regards to light bows vs heavy. A light bow will show EVERY error in form because there is not the power in the bow to overcome a bad loose or if the thumb has torqued the string. With a light bow one has to physically release the string where as with a heavy bow the bow will do the work for you. That is one reason why "trick shooters" use higher poundages.
I know many competitive archers who say beware of the guy who can stack arrows with a 25# bow because when he/she shoots a 45# or above he will never miss. If you don't believe me shoot a 25# bow and then shoot your regular bow and tell me which one are you more accurate with and which one you don't get the "right" arrow flight.
By the way thanks for the link there is some intereseting information regarding bow comparasions.
Angela
Storm wrote:
A stronger bow shows any error in technique, while a light bow hides it.
Interestingly, I have experienced the exact opposite the exact opposite over the past few years. If people try to shoot bows with too much poundage (for instance, if they shoot 60# on the ground, have a go at horseback archery and think they can handle that 60# just as easily from a galloping horse), you often see the draw becoming shorter and sloppier, especially on the shorter distances, or when they try to do a parthian. If you shoot sloppily from a strong bow, the arrow will still hit (on short distance). With a lighter bow you have to draw the bow to it's full potential, otherwise your insufficient technique will become very obvious.
I personally don't like it when some use the horse as an excuse for using low poundage bows.
And who would we be making excuses to, any why? The god of 160# warbows? It might be an idea to consider the option that many experienced horseback archers shoot bows around 35# because, after years of experience, they have formed the opinion that these are most efficient for the job. If you also have years of experience in horseback archery and have come to different conclusions, fine. There's always room for more than one opinion. On the other hand, there are plenty of archers around who think draw weight is some kind of macho contest, and I have a feeling that this often gets in the way in these discussions.
Storm wrote:
One must not forget though, that in order to be a horseback archer, it has to become an archer first.
You have to be BOTH first - an archer and a rider! Both elements are equally important, it's not like shooting from a moving car!
Angela
jbl wrote:
Storm I think you have it wrong in regards to light bows vs heavy. A light bow will show EVERY error in form because there is not the power in the bow to overcome a bad loose or if the thumb has torqued the string. With a light bow one has to physically release the string where as with a heavy bow the bow will do the work for you. That is one reason why "trick shooters" use higher poundages.
Thanks, you put it much better than I did - my thoughts exactly.
Storm
I don't want to go into an endless debate on this, it is my oppinion and I am sticking with it. I personally shoot better with lighter poundage. I understand your points and reasons too, though. Just one comment:
If people try to shoot bows with too much poundage ... you often see the draw becoming shorter and sloppier, especially on the shorter distances, or when they try to do a parthian
This is actually what am I referring to. When they use a stronger bow and their draw is shorter or they cannot perform certain shots, the technique is the problem. The stronger bow shows that. Whereas with a lighter bow they are doing everything right. (I am assuming that the bow is not too strong for them to begin with and that they proved on the ground that they can shoot it properly). In the end it's the archer's choice: adapt the bow based on the task or stick with the bow and adapt the technique.
P.S. I am shooting the bow I like and the poundage that makes me fell good when the arrow leaves the string. For me it is a matter of preference and not of showing off.
Angela
Storm wrote:
P.S. I am shooting the bow I like and the poundage that makes me fell good when the arrow leaves the string. For me it is a matter of preference and not of showing off.
And that is exactly what others are doing when they choose to shoot lighter bows from horseback than they would on the ground - that too is a matter of preference and not of "making excuses" :wink:. Perhaps we might agree on that.
(I am assuming that the bow is not too strong for them to begin with and that they proved on the ground that they can shoot it properly).
That is the whole point - in my opinion, it just isn't comparable. You can't just put your whole strength into the bow as you can when shooting on the ground. You need freedom of movement and still be relaxed enough to move with your horse without interfering, to be able to react if your horse suddenly shies or stops, to make sure you don't send your horse the wrong signals because your body is under more tension. And you have to be quick, and shoot instinctively: Not because of speed shooting competitions, but because it you wait a two seconds, your target is gone...
That is why, in my opinion, the "if you can shoot if on the ground, you can shoot it from horseback" theory does not apply. You may physically be able to shoot that bow on horseback - but it might well cause limitations otherwise.
P.S. To avoid any misunderstanding: I've noticed that the nominal draw weight of many Korean bows is measured at around 30-32". The average weight I was referring to in my posts is the draw weight at 28". A friend just told me his 35# Wind Fighter measures in at 46# at full draw... (So did my old one, and that's what got me in the bad habit of continually shortening my draw...)
jchocz
Angela wrote:
...And that is exactly what others are doing when they choose to shoot lighter bows from horseback than they would on the ground - that too is a matter of preference and not of "making excuses" :wink:. Perhaps we might agree on that.
A little story ...
I want to learn to ride a car. I sit on the computer - automobile driving simulator. I try and learn to "ride" car. Repeat several times each maneuver and position (when the car crashes, when I get a bend in the skid ...). I can say that I can handle a real car? Certainly not!
The real driving car, get a skid during cornering and picking up my stomach. Only then did I know what it looks like the real ride on the car.
It is my preference. I want to get close to reality. Therefore, I use a bow under the historical construction and will be shooting arrows from bamboo. Modern bow and arrows of modern definitely more accurate (but I will miss feeling close to reality). With a bow to 40 lbs would also probably be more accurate in shooting ...
Your preferences are different. I do not criticize it. I just wonder.
WarBow
Okay, let's get back to KTB and its variants. We are eagerly awaiting for Thomas and other's "detailed" reviews of the Khan and Dong Yi.
Angela
jchocz wrote:
A little story ...
I want to learn to ride a car. I sit on the computer - automobile driving simulator. I try and learn to "ride" car. Repeat several times each maneuver and position (when the car crashes, when I get a bend in the skid ...). I can say that I can handle a real car? Certainly not!
The real driving car, get a skid during cornering and picking up my stomach. Only then did I know what it looks like the real ride on the car.
Yes, that is exactly what happens to some people who think shooting from horseback is just as easy as shooting on the ground, then try it out and very quickly realize there's more to it than that :D
It is my preferene. I want to get close to reality. Therefore, I use a bow under the historical construction and will be shooting arrows from bamboo. Modern bow and arrows of modern definitely more accurate (but I will miss feeling close to reality).
This thread is about the new Kaya bows. All of these bows contain plenty of modern materials, including your Kaya, and the biocomposites. So what? Doesn't matter to most people in this thread, so why single out horseback archers for your criticism of putative historical incorrectness? If you feel "historically correct" shooting a bow made constructed with plenty of modern materials (you said you haid a Kaya), fine by me. But that seems to me a case of throwing stones in a glass house...
Warbow is right, we have been dragging this thread off topic for too long. So if you still want to discuss this, you should really open a new thread as I suggested earlier. Because I'm still interested in where you get your information concerning "historical correctness" and "reality" of draw weight etc.
Justin Ma
Angela wrote:
Warbow is right, we have been dragging this thread off topic for too long. So if you still want to discuss this, you should really open a new thread as I suggested earlier. Because I'm still interested in where you get your information concerning "historical correctness" and "reality" of draw weight etc.
I have not started mounted archery as yet but have been involved in tentpegging and polo.I am an active shooter with rifles and shotgunning and offer a simple comparison.
I own rifles from .22 cal to 500 nitro express double.I love my elephant rifle and love shooting it but it is not practical on a daily basis.
1 the cost of the cartridges
2 the recoil of the rifle (10-15 rounds are my limit)
Same thing i would say with heavy bow compared to a lighter bow.
I am good with the big bore rifle does not mean i shoot it more,I shoot the smaller caliber's more as it is more comfortable and I am still able to shoot the big bore if i want to.
The times when we had to depend on heavy bows are gone,so why not just enjoy the sport and to each their own.
daryush
PjSingh wrote:
The times when we had to depend on heavy bows are gone,so why not just enjoy the sport and to each their own.
This.
What I do disagree with is people stating as fact (such as Kassai, on a documentary I've seen) that the absolute maximum old time military horse archers would use is 40 lb.
Anyway, there is a new thread for this. I may chip in once there are a couple more posts on there.
WarBow
Just out of curiosity, is there a bowyer in South Korea or elsewhere who can make Korean war bow replicas using a mix of modern and natural material in the 120 lbs draw weight range? At what draw length is the 120 lbs peak draw weight measured at? 31"?
Justin Ma
WarBow wrote:
Just out of curiosity, is there a bowyer in South Korea or elsewhere who can make Korean war bow replicas using a mix of modern and natural material in the 120 lbs draw weight range? At what draw length is the 120 lbs peak draw weight measured at? 31"?
Just out of curiosity, is there a bowyer in South Korea or elsewhere who can make Korean war bow replicas using a mix of modern and natural material in the 120 lbs draw weight range? At what draw length is the 120 lbs peak draw weight measured at? 31"?
Just out of curiosity, is there a bowyer in South Korea or elsewhere who can make Korean war bow replicas using a mix of modern and natural material in the 120 lbs draw weight range? At what draw length is the 120 lbs peak draw weight measured at? 31"?
I?m a recreational archer, I don?t go to or join any clubs and I shoot solo at my place. Nothing complicated. Since relocating/moving to Australia years ago, I?m fortunate to be able to have personal space to do archery by myself. I stand in the driveway and my target is placed ?inside- the garage which I shoot into. What this means for me, is that, my arrow trajectory can?t be too high. (From floor to the top of the garage its about 2.1 meters). The driveway which I shoot from, is shielded on the left by the house and on the right by a 2 meter fence separating my place from the neighbours. Essentially its like an alleyway, shielded from wind.
I shoot usually at 17meters (18.5yards) and the maximum distance space I can afford at my place is 20meters. I use a 60cm FITA target paper and I shoot every evening after work (unless theres heavy rain). My only gripe about my setup is that there is a resident brustail possum somewhere around the neighborhood that insist on pooping at my driveway every night without fail, which means I have to sweep the driveway before shooting unless I want to trod on possum turd.
Anyway, I was reading this thread, about Korean Bows, Horsebows, and how the thread diverge at some point. While I won?t comment about draw weight on horseback, or draw weight in ancient time, I thought of contributing my opinion/review on some of the bows that were mentioned, since, I own 2 of the types commented.
All my bows are considered ?low? poundage. I don?t shoot high poundage bows due to a past injury where the base of my right thumb was sliced to bone, the good thing that came out of it is, my thumb, till this day is numb and I don?t really feel any crimping even if I don?t use my thumb ring (I still do use thumb rings anyway). The bad news is, I am not exactly doing a ?true? thumb draw. I physically can?t bend my right thumb on its own and I use my index or index+ middle finger (depending on the bow I use) to basically lock the thumb. There is absolutely no pressure exerted by my thumb since, I cannot bend it on its own and strength comes solely from the lock of the index finger or index/middle finger. It?s a physical limitation that can?t be helped, I guess.
I have always used ?bare bows? (no arrow shelf) and I?ve have never done archery any other way than shooting it off my thumb (on the right side of the bow) and using the thumb draw. So, I can?t really comment how these bows shoot using the Mediterranean draw or otherwise.
Early this month in Feb I received my Hwarang Bow which I ordered through Thomas Duvernay, increasing my bow collection to 3 here in Australia.
The three bows I own are
1. Asymmetrical ?Hun-styled? Bow (Kassai ?Deer?)
Height when braced: 160cm (63?)
Manufacturer claimed draw weight: 25# at 28? (I draw the bow to 35? so ~43#)
Bow weight: 1kg
2. Japanese Yumi (Higo Sozan Carbon Yumi)
Height when braced: Ni-sun nobi 227cm (89.4 ?)
Manufacturer claimed draw weight: 38.5# at 35.4? (17.5kg at 90cm)
Bow weight: 540grams (Not entirely sure)
*Comment: Ni-sun nobi yumi draw strength are measured at 90cm
3. Korean styled carbon Bow (Hwarang Bow-long version ?Janggung?)
Height when braced: 122cm (48?)
Manufacturer claimed draw weight: 35# at 31? (I draw to 33?)
Bow weight: 360-384grams (extremely light)
* Comment: Around 29? of draw, the pull becomes very hard, feels like stacking, but
since the manufacturer measures draw weight at 31? I guess this is normal, for a
Korean bow.
I own 4 sets of arrows. That I switch around depending on the bow (and my mood)
- 10 German Cedar arrows: 85cm (33.3?) weight: approx 38grams (586.4 grains)
- 20 German Cedar arrows:83cm (32.7?) weight: approx 38gram (586.4 grains)
- 20 Easton Powerflight Carbon arrows: 81.3cm (32?) weight: approx 24g (370 grains)
- 50 Tiger Tonkin Bamboo arrows: 95cm (37.4?) weight: approx 38g-42g (586.4 -648
grains)
Kassai Asymmetrical ?Hun-shaped? Bow (Deer) vs Korean Carbon Jangung (Hwarang Bow long version) my personal opinion.
Drawing/Pulling
The manufacturer draw strength for my Kassai ?Deer? asymmetrical ?Hun styled? Bow is 25?@28?. I draw the Kassai bow to (believe it or not) to 35? even though this particular Kassai bow model states the max draw length is 33?. (That?s the main reason why I got this bow, I look at what draw length the bow can handle, and got a bow with the longest draw length I could find).
The pull from 28? all the way to 35? feels exactly the same. It is smooth and even, that?s the best I can describe it. (i.e you don?t feel any increase in strength to pull back all the way to 35?). It?s a bit creaky but not really noticeably unless you?re being picky (sound-wise) when you draw the bow, I have a gut feeling its due to the way the string loop is made, not so much the bow. Since the bow pull is so even (i.e the pull is not exponentially difficult to pull from 28? to 35?, I give it the benefit of doubt and take the poundage to be linear (no scientific basis for this conclusion) I calculate the poundage at 2.5# per inch so at 35?, I am guessing the poundage is roughly 43#. The Kassai Deer, does not feel like 43# when you draw it to 35? because my Yumi which is 38.5# at 35.4? feel way more harder to pull in comparison. You could probably draw it all the way pass 35? but my arms aren?t long enough to find that out.
As for the Hwarang Bow. A number of Atarn members own the Hwarang bows, I wonder if they have the same experience as I have with the Hwarang Bow. The Hwarang bow pull is very smooth. It?s a different quite of smooth feel compared to Kassai Bow. I liken the feeling of the Hwarang Bow to that of pulling a rubber band/elastic tubing, while the smooth Kassai deer feel like pulling on? well.. bendable wood (kind of feel somewhat like a pulling back on a yumi with sound). It is a very enjoyable feeling. The pull is way quieter compared to Kassai Deer. However, at the start of 29?the Hwarang bow, feels like massive stacking and at 30? it feels like hitting a brick wall and at 30? it feels like you can?t pull anymore, but it can?t be true, that?s what I thought because the manufacture measures the draw weight at 31?.
Maybe the initial pull back is almost nothing , that it "tricks" the arm to think it has hit a brick wall at the last few inches, or maybe it is really stacking. Since, I?ve never used a Korean traditional bow, I?m keeping an open mind about it.That being said, the Hwarang bow CAN be pulled all the way to 33?. (I use my 33.3? german cedar arrow to test this). After shooting daily, pulling the Hwarang Bow to 33? seem to be really easy now. It doesn?t feel like ?hitting? the brick wall anymore, but it still feels hard to pull pass 29?. I don?t know if it?s a matter of me getting use to it or the bow has ?soften? up. One thing for sure about the Hwarang bow is that from 30?inches onwards (or maybe 29?), the strength required to pull back is not linear but exponentially, compared to the Kassai ?Deer? Hun bow, where the pull from 28? to 35? feels exactly the same. Bear in mind this is with the long version of the Hwarang Bow, the jangung. I?m guessing the standard Hwarang Bow will have a much difficult pull at shorter draw lengths.
Arrow speed.
I usually use Cedar arrows to shoot with the Hwarang, and Bamboo arrows for my Yumi and Kassai Hun. But for comparison, I will cite my experience using Bamboo arrows to cross-compare between the 3 bows I use:. Kassai Asymmetrical Hun, Hwarang, Higo Sozan Yumi.
The Hwarang Bow launches arrows very fast. The arrow speed of the Higo Sozan Yumi and the Kassai Hun bow pales in comparison. (Hwarang Bow > Higo Sozan Yumi > Kassai Deer Hun) The speed is very visually noticeable. Then again the comparison is not exactly without bias.
The Hwarang uses Fastflight strings, the Yumi uses Aramid/Kelvar and Kassai Deer uses Dacron. Also, I?m pretty sure the poundage with the draw length I?m doing is not equal among the three. Since, my Yumi draw weight is know exactly (38.5# at 35.4? (90cm) ), I use this as a empirical way to guess the draw weight of the 35# @ 31? Hwarang Bow at a 33? draw. At 33? the Hwarang does not feels as heavy to draw, compared to the Yumi. So I?m guessing at 33? It is more than 35# but below 38.5#.
Whilst, I calculate the Kassai ?Deer? Hun styled bow to be 43# at 35? draw (Manufacturer states 25#@28?). It feels way easier to pull. To me it almost feels less than 25# all the way to 35?. The pull weight is so even from 28? to 35?. In terms of evenness of pull between the 3 bows, (to me at least). Its Kassai ?Deer? Asymmetrical Bow > Higo Sozan Yumi> Hwarang.
Arrow trajectory.
This is something, I?ve been wondering for a while due to my observations. My Yumi and Kassai bow are both asymmetrical. The Hwarang is not. The Kassai ?Deer? Asymmetrical Bow arrow trajectory is definitely flatter than the Hwarang even though it launches arrow ?way- slower. The Yumi (which is also asymmetrical) trajectory is also flatter compared to the Hwarang, but not as flat as the Kassai Bow. This was observed using the bamboo arrows. I definitely have to aim low with the Hwarang Bow and not the Kassai bow or my Higo Sozan Yumi. For the Yumi, its hard to compare because the shooting technique is different. I use the same style on my Kassai Bow with the Hwarang. (i.e Grip, Stance, Anchoring, release). The Yumi definitely hits ?low? given the same height of target. Maybe because the center of target to the ground is normally 27cm in Japanese archery and the Yumi is designed that way (No idea). I find I have to adjust aiming (Nerai) of the Yumi upwards, since my target is at chest height and not the traditional height level. Also the arrow I use on my Yumi are way heavier than those used in Kyudo. (much more heavier than kinteki arrows). Also, since Kassai Hun style bow and Hwarang Bow are fundamentally different in shape and I?m using the same style on them, maybe its not even accurate for me to say that Hwarang Bow trajectory is less flat than Kassai Bow. It could be a case of different technique for different bows. So, caveat there on that observation.
Handshock/Vibration
You don?t feel any handshock or vibration at all with the Hwarang Bow or Kassai ?Deer? Asymmetrical Bow. With the Higo Sozan Yumi, you do feel it, but it depends on the way the Japanese bow is used. The handshock on the Higo Sozan Yumi is minimal, (at least to me), but in no way can it compare to Hwarang or Kassai Deer. I don?t use the standard brace height of 15cm for my yumi. (Mines a bit higher), so that helps with the vibration a little, I hazard a guess. Then again the Higo Sozan Yumi back curve is suppose to resemble closest to a bamboo yumi among the synthetic yumi and hence (manufacturers claim) the least handshock among the synthetic yumis.
Penetration of target
Kassai ?Deer? Asymmetrical Hun styled bow, even when pulled to 35? (and theoretically have the highest poundage among my three bows, but I must add, the theoretically calculation doesn?t seem to match the feel) penetrate much less deeper than the Hwarang Bow or the Yumi. (This is with the heavy Bamboo arrows). The Yumi penetration is deepest among the three bows I have, although the Hwarang bow penetration is somewhat similar. Both arrows launched from the Yumi and the Hwarang have in some cases flew right through my double straw target backed by heaps of cardboard. and embedded right into a 2.5cm thick chip board I use as a backing wall about 1 meter behind the double straw+cardboard target. Then again with shooting arrows usingthe Yumi, if you twist the string in a particular way to get an ?S? shape you can kind of get a bit more penetration power.
In closing, the feel of the Hwarang Bow is definitely different from Kassai Bow. The Hwarang Bow is extremely light to the point it ?feels? flimsy. But it is extremely fast and powerful (More penetration power) compared to Kassai asymmetrical deer. It is very small and compact as well. However, if you like the long draws (like me), you might not get use to the Hwarang Bow (You might even feel a tad be disappointed) because the Hwarang bow draw length to me is short (and this is with the long version of the Hwarang), and the pull to reach the draw length that I?m minimally comfortable with is not ?even?. (It requires exponential amount of strength to pull from 29? onwards, but you will get used to it eventually). If you like very even draw (from 28? to 35? it feels same to pull), the Kassai ?Deer? asymmetrical bow is where its at.
Oh yes? one thing, I?m sure every Hwarang Bow owner will know, The ?death by a thousand shiatsu massages? on your bow hand. (I?m sure every Hwarang Bow owner will know what I mean, lol). I wonder if the Kaya traditional bow uses the same grip as the Hwarang, if so, beware!
"death by a thousand shiatsu massages"
This is so hilarious! :lol:
I did not liked that grip material at all and I switched to rubber grips used for tennis racquets. Works great for me but it depends how steady of a grip you need.
The Hwarang is also asymetrical, not in limb size, but in shape and strength; the top limb is curved more and a bit lighter. Kaya and Wind have the same setup.
Regarding the draw feeling, you are right, it goes a bit exponentially after some point, but for me it's ok. After around 29-30" my back starts pulling almost all the weight, so I don't really mind. It has a similar graph to Kaya and Wind: http://www.aixbow.de/shop/images/diagra ... al_bow.pdf http://www.aixbow.de/shop/images/diagra ... rbogen.pdf
I have abused my bow at 33-34-35" for about one and a half years and there's absolutely no issue with it (49# @29"). I finally settled at 33" for target shooting, but when shooting up is easy to draw longer.
I don't understand why you say the Hwarang trajectory is not as flat. You say that "I definitely have to aim low with the Hwarang Bow and not the Kassai bow or my Higo Sozan Yumi". Aiming low and hitting the same spot indicates that the arrow looses less height with the Hwarang, so the trajectory is flatter. Or am I reading this wrong?
Nice bow collection!
Thomas Duvernay
I just received the Khan test model from Kaya. I will be rather busy in the next few days, so I'm not sure when I'll have a chance to test it out, but I will do so ASAP. However, out of the box, it's beautiful and feels great to draw. 45# @28"
More later!
Thomas Duvernay
Well, I got to shoot the Khan for the first time today; however, I didn't have a lot of time to do so. I was having my Korean history/culture students over to the club today to introduce them to Korean trad archery, so by the time I got set up, they were already arriving. On top of that, regular club members were coming to practice for the upcoming provincial competition, so we had to be done by 2 p.m.
Still, I got to shoot a few arrows. My general opinion of the bow is good. It was a 45# @28" bow and I was shooting 500gr wood arrows with it. Speed-wise, they were mostly in the 160s, but I had a couple in the 170s. In comparison, my 50# @31" Hwarang shot 405gr arrows about 210fps. In short, the Khan will be a nice bow for those wishing to shoot fingers @28". I'll try to find a time when nobody else is at the club and I'll do further testing, but I think, overall, it's a really nice bow.
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