string placement on cylindrical ring

Not all cylindrical rings were meant for shooting. Many of the later ones were decorative accessories only. In most cases, the string would be as thick as the available space at the base of the ring.

I have shot with many original rings. I find the best and cleanest releases occur when I cannot feel the string pushing against the inside of the thumb. However, there is a degree of numbness associated with the action of these rings so it is possible that the string is only not pushing against the tendons and is lightly touching the thumb.

Interesting, thanks. Would you be able to post pictures of the cylindrical rings in your collection that you consider good for shooting? In particular, I'm interested in seeing close-up shots of the base edges.

(I'm in the midst of carving a cylindrical ring for a friend, so I want to get this right.)

This is the ring that I've been making...

http://picasaweb.google.com/jtma04/Cyli ... directlink

You'll see in the last photo ( http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Xc ... directlink ) that I flattened the part surrounding the opening just slightly (about 1 mm). The base edge is predominantly a taper.

Does this look reasonable for shooting? (I'm debating whether I should make the flat portion 3 mm thick instead.)

I will get some out and photograph them.

I found a supplier of Acrylic for carving who sells it is cylindrical rods that have the perfect outside diameter for making Qing rings. The colour I bought looks like nephrite.

I suppose you would be interested in measurements and angles too?

Awesome, thanks. If it's not too much trouble, measurements and angles would be great. (Though I'm just trying to get the gist of a good base edge's shape.)

Does the acrylic supplier have a Web site?

Though I shoot in the Manchu style, I "cheat" by using a Ming style thumb ring. The reason is that modern strings are so much thinner than Qing period strings. One period string I have is just over 1/4" thick. So my first question is, are those using the cylindrical ring to shoot, are those shooting with this ring type using a string las thick the period strings?

My second question is about the technique involved. Having not used the cylindrical thumb ring in actual shooting, it seems that one would not be able close the thumb joint as far using the cylindrical ring. How does this effect the technique? How does the index finger wrap around/over the thumb?

I've attached a Qing period painting showing the Manchu draw below. You can see in this painting that the thumb joint is considerably straighter than when using a Ming type thumb ring. But of course there are things about the hand position that look unnatural at best.

The thickness or thinness of the string is not really significant with the correct technique. Very thin rings are not suitable for very thick strings. However, in general you can use any ring with any string.

The flexing of the thumb is used in a different way than with lipped rings. When the thumb is inserted in a cylindrical ring, it is positioned so that the back of the distal knuckle of the thumb is in the centre of the ring. When the thumb is slightly flexed it locks the ring in place. At this point it should be impossible to pull the ring off the thumb without consciously straightening the thumb. The distal section of the thumb is not folded over the end of the ring. The side of the thumb ring is pressed against the side of the middle segment of the middle finger. Then the index finger lightly touches the thumb nail without putting any pressure on it. The other three fingers are clenched tightly as in other styles of shooting.

The painting exaggerates the position of the hand for effect. In reality the hand is held with its back horizontal to a degree dependent on the thickness of the ring. There are several photographs of archers with good form drawing the bow surviving from the Qing. What the artist might be trying to emphasise the fact that the side of the proximal segment of the index finger is touching the arrow to help keep it in place.

The straighter the ring was held with in relation to the arrow, the faster the release becomes. Due to the strength of the hold on the ring, there is no chance of the ring coming off. In fact it is a good indication that the archer has not placed the thumb in the ring correctly, if it flies off with the release.

These rings can be used with the heaviest bows. A red mark can appear on the back of the thumb below the nail towards the knuckle when capillaries close to the surface rupture. This is a cosmetic effect only and it is not associated with any discomfort. The ring should slip off when the thumb is straightened, rather than hang on to the thumb.

Unfortunately, Morse in the late nineteenth century published a picture of a Chinese ring in use with it pushed right back to the base of the thumb. This became a standard illustration to describe the use of thumb rings in general and unfortunately presented an inefficient method of using thumb rings. Stephen Selby's book, Chinese Archery, has contemporary diagrams from the Qing dynasty showing the ring on the thumb.

I'm helping Scott post this image from the 1772 Art Militaire des Chinois that covers Qing military arts of the Yongzhen Period to add some more illustrations to the discussion.

This picture seems to illustrate basically what I was describing, taking into account the limitations of using illustrations. The thumb is semi-straight and the index finger is lightly touching the tip. this is similar to the painting detail reproduced earlier. Part of the ring is pushed against the middle finger. The middle, ring and little fingers are closed and form a fist.

Hi,

Bede's tip of where to wear the ring really was the key to getting this technique down. I was lucky to have him explain it to me in person when we met in Korea back in 2008. Not getting it right can be a rather painful ordeal, especially with heavier bows.

Here some pics to help explain the technique. I am using an antique ring made of bone here. I find the bone rings quite comfortable to use compared to other, more slippery materials.

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This is the place to wear it, on the knuckle and not below it. It requires some trial and error to find out the ideal place to wear it on one's thumb.

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The hand as it is held as if drawing the string, seen from various angles.

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Pulling the actual bow. You see the finger supports the arrow on the long, unfletched part of the arrow. This is only when using arrows with very long fletchings, which require a specific technique to nock and pull so the feathers won't be disturbed. I'll save that for later.

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Seen from the other side.

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Seen from the inside. The twisting that some Chinese manuals speak of really starts to make sense when using a ring like this, as it secures the hold considerably.

Lastly, a schematic of the ring. It pretty much speaks for itself, but it might help clear things up for those who haven't seen a Manchu ring up close.
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Justin, your ring looks pretty much on the spot from the pictures, great work!

I hope this helps!

-Peter

This is extremely useful, thanks. I'm encouraged to give the cylindrical ring another go (this time, I'll probably make it out of a thick-walled piece of copper plumbing).

Do you ever line the inside with leather in case the ring is a little loose? I remember reading in Stephen's ATARN article about Qinghai archery that the thumb-release archers often used cylindrical rings lined with leather inside. Was this done to ensure a good fit, or was it for cushioning the thumb from the hard ring surface?

Glad it inspires you. You may want to go back in draw weight a bit to get it down, the ring is not very forgiving when you're learning. It took me a while until I could also draw my heavier bows with it with some confidence.

I have no experience with leather lining, so I couldn't say with any certainty what it was for. It may have helped to protect the hand when the string pushes against the flesh, but this is always the result of a bad technique. Most pressure is exerted through the ring to the inside of the thumb.

It might also be to make a large ring fit, the Qinghai archers are rather poor and might use whatever they can find.

I do have an old bone ring with a hole in it, maybe it was used to attach some sort of lining. But it doesn't seem to have been common for the Manchus to line their rings with something soft.

-Peter

I have a ring with a silver lining inscribed with the owner's name. that is the only tipe of lining I have seen in rings from the Qing Dynasty, but that doesn't mean there weren't other methods used.

In the Tibetan region, is is possible that the ring using technique was different from the Manchu military method. Some rings I have from there have unusual shapes. I think it might be a good area of study. The idea that old rings were modified by using leather linings to help them fit is a good one too.

I have found out something interesting recently. It is winter in Australia and in the colder temperature, the old jade ring I practice with has become more comfortable and I no longer get the red mark below the thumb nail. Obviously in the cold the ring is looser since my thumb is smaller, but I think it might be less blood flow in the surface skin that prevents the red mark.

Peter; I think your posted ring is deer antler. There are some really big antlers on Chinese type deer-or elk is it? This material might have religious significance for a Buddhist.

Bede wrote:

I have a ring with a silver lining inscribed with the owner's name. that is the only tipe of lining I have seen in rings from the Qing Dynasty, but that doesn't mean there weren't other methods used.

Same here, I've also seen some jade rings with silver lining. It's great to have something with a name on it. Is the name in Chinese or Manchu? It goes without saying that I'd love to see pics. :)

Bede wrote:

In the Tibetan region, is is possible that the ring using technique was different from the Manchu military method.

I agree. There is that picture from the Bundesarchiv where a Tibetan archer uses a similar ring but with a different technique:
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Bede wrote:

I have found out something interesting recently. It is winter in Australia and in the colder temperature, the old jade ring I practice with has become more comfortable and I no longer get the red mark below the thumb nail. Obviously in the cold the ring is looser since my thumb is smaller, but I think it might be less blood flow in the surface skin that prevents the red mark.

Now that is interesting, considering the cold temperatures up in Manchuria in winters. They also usually attacked in winter, as it was easier to move over frozen water and many layers of protective clothing wouldn't be as warm as they would be in summer.

Jack:
You might be right. I thought it was bone because of all the holes where the blood vessels used to be, but I understand some parts of deer antler also have this. Is there any definite way to find out whether it's antler or bone, perhaps under magnification?

-Peter

Peter; I think we had this discussion about a year ago here. Didn't JJ post a pic?

Too bad you are not here. Chinese deer (elk?) are kept on game farms here and the antlers are available. The base is very thick and could make such a ring. Whole antlers have minimal restrictions and crafts pass unrestricted. Not my business though.

Hi!

I remember a discussion about the material of my whistler a while back, but there was no info posted on how to distinguish antler from bone. I'm going to have to make some close-up shots for you guys.

-Peter

Peter, can you say what the angle of the slope is on the convex/base edge of the ring (as well as for the concave edge)? You can express as the length of the sides of a right triangle, where the sloping edge is the hypotenuse.

Also, does it matter how tall the ring is?

Peter; Glad you brought up your whistler. Are you now convinced that the material is wood after seeing a broken identical item in the Ashmolean?

I was surprised.

Telling bone from antler.
Both bow and antler have a spongy core. However, the way that they are laid down is different. Antler is built up by a layer of tissue called velvet. All the blood vessels are in the velvet. Once the velvet is shed, the antler is effectively a dead projection of the skull. However, bow is alive and has communication between its interior and the rest of the body. There are microscopic blood vessels running through the bone.

Inscription on the Ring
It is Chinese characters and very hard to see. I will try to photograph it with my USB microscope, but I do not hold out much hope of a clear picture.

Justin Ma wrote:

Peter, can you say what the angle of the slope is on the convex/base edge of the ring (as well as for the concave edge)? You can express as the length of the sides of a right triangle, where the sloping edge is the hypotenuse.

Nevermind. I was looking at the schematic again, which seems to suggest a 45-degree angle for the slopes, although the base edge slope should be more curved.

Justin,
The slope is not critical. I have been checking the rings I use and some have almost flat bases and others where the angle is less than 40 degrees, possibly only 30. The other end is equally variable. Sometimes it is closer to a radiused finish rather than an angle. The major consideration is not to have sharp edges.

At full draw, the axis of the ring is parallel with the arrow so what you need is a shape that doesn't damage the string at that position.

jack farrell wrote:

Peter; Glad you brought up your whistler. Are you now convinced that the material is wood after seeing a broken identical item in the Ashmolean?

I was surprised.

My whistle is some kind of very dense bone, the vessels clearly show up under magnification. We may never find out what kind of bone though. :)

I did see a broken whistle, it was in the reserve collection of the Royal Armories in Leeds. It was of a slightly different type, used for a horseback target archery game. That whistle was made of burl wood combined with horn. The regulations for this whistle mention yangjiao, which can be goat or ramshorn. Its identical counterpart, which is not broken, is on display in the same museum.

Thanks Bede fot the explanation telling antler from bone. I think the ring is bone then. It has vessels, small and larger, throughout.

-Peter