core and siyah materials - list of options?
Hi!
I've been reading this forum for quite some time and found a lot of inspiration (also got Adams book), but now I feel ready to try making my first hornbow.
Now I made a couple of longbows in the past years, so I'm not completely starting from scratch, but I probably need a little guidance. Since I never before worked with hide glue or recurves I only know of a few materials suitable for core and siyah.
Browsing the forum I find the info rather hard to find, so I'll ask this:
I read about mullberry, bamboo, mable and even ip? being used for core.
Now I would like all to help making a list of good materials for respectively core and siyah. I belive this will prove usefull for everybody in the long run.
What are your experiences on this topic?
BTW:
I don't mind if it is not traditionally used, since I would much rather get some easily obtainable wood from my own region, than trying to import something more exotic - I live in Denmark by the way.
Edit:
One of the topics I was wondering about is if anyone knowv if elder is any good? or roots from any trees or bushes can be used?
I've been reading this forum for quite some time and found a lot of inspiration (also got Adams book), but now I feel ready to try making my first hornbow.
Now I made a couple of longbows in the past years, so I'm not completely starting from scratch, but I probably need a little guidance. Since I never before worked with hide glue or recurves I only know of a few materials suitable for core and siyah.
Browsing the forum I find the info rather hard to find, so I'll ask this:
I read about mullberry, bamboo, mable and even ip? being used for core.
Now I would like all to help making a list of good materials for respectively core and siyah. I belive this will prove usefull for everybody in the long run.
What are your experiences on this topic?
BTW:
I don't mind if it is not traditionally used, since I would much rather get some easily obtainable wood from my own region, than trying to import something more exotic - I live in Denmark by the way.
Edit:
One of the topics I was wondering about is if anyone knowv if elder is any good? or roots from any trees or bushes can be used?
perhaps, the the ears (siyahs) can be made with woven carbon graphite with CNT added :lol: :lol: :lol:
Siyahs need to be light and strong. Elm (China) and Cherry (Korea) are traditional and do well.
Core needs to be flexible and accept a shearing force. The presence of natural rubbery sap is a bonus. Apart from the large species of bamboo, all the members of the mulberry family (including osage orange) do well. Tamarisk has also been used extensively in arid regions of Central Asia, but it has an uneven grain which makes it difficult to use long sections. I have sometimes wondered if hazel would do well if you could get hold of a long enough section.
Core needs to be flexible and accept a shearing force. The presence of natural rubbery sap is a bonus. Apart from the large species of bamboo, all the members of the mulberry family (including osage orange) do well. Tamarisk has also been used extensively in arid regions of Central Asia, but it has an uneven grain which makes it difficult to use long sections. I have sometimes wondered if hazel would do well if you could get hold of a long enough section.
Thank you for the input :-)
As I understand it, the structure of the core and siyah also needs to be compatible with hide glue - so the structure must be quite smooth?
Stephen: You mention elm - some threads seem to mention that elm might not be suitable for siyah but fine for the limbs. Is this your experience too?
Warbow: :D Ok - perhaps I should have been more specific about it :lol:
Natural materials are in question here. I plan on using horn and sinew and whatever might be suitable and obtainable in my area. :wink:
Anyone has any thoughts on elderberry? I have a pice that might be fine for limbs and it would be possible to find a nice piece for ears (siyah) too.
As I understand it, the structure of the core and siyah also needs to be compatible with hide glue - so the structure must be quite smooth?
Stephen: You mention elm - some threads seem to mention that elm might not be suitable for siyah but fine for the limbs. Is this your experience too?
Warbow: :D Ok - perhaps I should have been more specific about it :lol:
Natural materials are in question here. I plan on using horn and sinew and whatever might be suitable and obtainable in my area. :wink:
Anyone has any thoughts on elderberry? I have a pice that might be fine for limbs and it would be possible to find a nice piece for ears (siyah) too.
Elder is great for wooden bows, but for a core you will have to find out yourself.
But it can't be that hard to get maple...
Daniel
But it can't be that hard to get maple...
Daniel
- duplicate, please delete -
Due to the amount of work needed to build a hornbow and due to the relative easy availability of mapple, there have not been many attempt at different woods. Also wood is not that critical to bow performance, it only works or fails.
SAL
Mapple, birtch (mongolian) and bamboo are traditional.
White ash with side grain has been succesfully used in sal parts.
I think someone tried hickory succesfully.
All attempts with Yew junipers and and Elm in sal have failed.
I would say that Hazel <coryolus> is good, since it is diffuse porous like mapple and because it heat bends well. Unfortunately I only have
good piece for one limb at the moment, since I fucked up the other limb.
EARS
I think any wood that heat bends well does work here.
Light woods have not been used traditionally, since these
would have to be made so thick they could not be easilly heat corrected.
(??)
CENTER
Anything with mass.
And all parts should be hide glue compatible, so overly greasy woods are out. In most but not all design require some parts to be heat bent, this means those parts(if not natural pieces are found) need to be compatible with heat bending.
SAL
Mapple, birtch (mongolian) and bamboo are traditional.
White ash with side grain has been succesfully used in sal parts.
I think someone tried hickory succesfully.
All attempts with Yew junipers and and Elm in sal have failed.
I would say that Hazel <coryolus> is good, since it is diffuse porous like mapple and because it heat bends well. Unfortunately I only have
good piece for one limb at the moment, since I fucked up the other limb.
EARS
I think any wood that heat bends well does work here.
Light woods have not been used traditionally, since these
would have to be made so thick they could not be easilly heat corrected.
(??)
CENTER
Anything with mass.
And all parts should be hide glue compatible, so overly greasy woods are out. In most but not all design require some parts to be heat bent, this means those parts(if not natural pieces are found) need to be compatible with heat bending.
No: other way around: elm for siyahs - doesn't work for limbs.dklynx wrote:
Stephen: You mention elm - some threads seem to mention that elm might not be suitable for siyah but fine for the limbs. Is this your experience too?
Elder? :shock: That's the most useless wood I know of. Are we talking about the same plant?
S
I suppose you were thinking of alder, or maybe the wrong one of the two elder species. Sambucus nigra is the good one.
Daniel
Daniel
Heh - I'm starting to see the advantages of using a wiki for this sort of diskussion :-)
Thank you for your input.
Like Daniel T. said, mable is not that hard to get, I just happen to have elder and a few other sorts of wood in my very small workshop and would like to avoid having to move around more stuff every time I want to work there. :lol:
Thank you for your input.
Like Daniel T. said, mable is not that hard to get, I just happen to have elder and a few other sorts of wood in my very small workshop and would like to avoid having to move around more stuff every time I want to work there. :lol:
Nothing wastes time more than using untried materials in a hornbow.
I tried with a hazel stave last April. It had been recently cut, I skinned it, bent it while green, air-dried. It failed eventually while curing the sinew (cracks). I have plenty of, Id love to hear to someone else experience. Since that I stopped using it, but seemed to me that for a longbow it would reasonably work.
Hazel is infamously prone to check and split, when initially dried. Sealing ends, sawing to half and drying slowly are the keys here. I have used newspaper wrap with wet clothing inside. NOTE: the wood is NOT weather durable.
It has no tendency to check and split, if it is dried up and later soaked and boiled and dried.
I assume it is because of water distribution while green.
Immersing the green wood a few days before drying may or may not help (NOTE: I have not tried this!).
I assumed it would not do check and split after being glued and sinewed, but I have not tried that.
I would assume that if you heat and bend it while green the drying up has same problems that the initial drying.
Hazel is good for self bows and is especially tension durable. It is also compatible with heavy heat treatments in belly side. There are a lot of articles about this in paleoplanet.
It has no tendency to check and split, if it is dried up and later soaked and boiled and dried.
I assume it is because of water distribution while green.
Immersing the green wood a few days before drying may or may not help (NOTE: I have not tried this!).
I assumed it would not do check and split after being glued and sinewed, but I have not tried that.
I would assume that if you heat and bend it while green the drying up has same problems that the initial drying.
Hazel is good for self bows and is especially tension durable. It is also compatible with heavy heat treatments in belly side. There are a lot of articles about this in paleoplanet.
:roll:
:wink:
I guess the last 2 replies hint towards using only known core woods! I am currently drying some cherry cores. I am still looking for a decent maple around here...
rigt now i'm using russian olive for my siyah and mullberry for core and handle.russian olive is very similar to mullberry.i'll tell what will happen.
Yes - I respectfully disagree though.mikekeswick wrote:
I guess the last 2 replies hint towards using only known core woods! I am currently drying some cherry cores. I am still looking for a decent maple around here...
In my humble opinion it is problematic to be limited to some 4-6 or whatever species for the core/ears. Look at how dificult it is to get good elm since most of it got elm disease. :evil:
Besides we humans have an unfortunate tendency to destroy more and more nature around us and who knows what is available to our grandchildren.
The core wood may not mean much for performance, but I think we should explore the posibilities - for many reasons, availability might become a problem in the future.
Sounds interesting - I'll be happy to hear about it.hcspng wrote:
rigt now i'm using russian olive for my siyah and mullberry for core and handle.russian olive is very similar to mullberry.i'll tell what will happen.
Yes I understand fully what you say about dissappearing resources. I tried using elm for the core on my first hornbow. The horn delaminated - however I have hopefully fixed it and I will see if it can become a bow at the 2nd chance! If it works I will be very pleased as there is lots and lots of quality elm around here.
What will make a superior self bow might make a superior backed bow but may not do at all for a horn bow. A hornbow is a different animal.
Yes, I realise that from what people write on ATARN and other places.jack farrell wrote:
What will make a superior self bow might make a superior backed bow but may not do at all for a horn bow. A hornbow is a different animal.
But it seems unlikely that only the traditionally used types of wood are good options and, as mentioned above, I think we should keep an open mind to other ressources - some even like to experiment and take the chance with alternatives (that is probably how the hornbow and other advanced tools developed in the first place) :wink:
Who dont teach and respect history, must repeat all every step...
Go on.
(Ps. : you maybe forget that your ancestors experimenting and vith his "open Mind " and try alternatives found epoxi, polyester, glass "sinew", exotic wood lamelas... and voil???-modern reflex bows :lol: )
Go on.
(Ps. : you maybe forget that your ancestors experimenting and vith his "open Mind " and try alternatives found epoxi, polyester, glass "sinew", exotic wood lamelas... and voil???-modern reflex bows :lol: )
I have heard hazel mentioned quite regulary with regard to being used as a core wood.
Has anybody used it before?
Has anybody used it before?
yes - dont do it.
As I said above, like many others, maybe for something else, but not for a horn bow.
It really is not what a hornbow deserves
It really is not what a hornbow deserves
Ok I understand and respect your advice. :)
Can somebody explain why hazel would not work - it is diffuse porous, similar specific gravity ( slightly heavier ) than maple and from my experience glues very well and steam bends pretty well.
Please understand I'm not trying to be arkward going against the well tried and trusted knowledge of maple being amongst the best woods for a core. I just really want to make a hornbow and have searched high and low for maple and there just isn't any in my area, beleive me I have looked!
I can get kiln dried maple from various timber yards but Adam recommends against kiln dried wood. Indeed I have already tried some kiln dried maple and it broke at the tip / kasan bend.
Can somebody explain why hazel would not work - it is diffuse porous, similar specific gravity ( slightly heavier ) than maple and from my experience glues very well and steam bends pretty well.
Please understand I'm not trying to be arkward going against the well tried and trusted knowledge of maple being amongst the best woods for a core. I just really want to make a hornbow and have searched high and low for maple and there just isn't any in my area, beleive me I have looked!
I can get kiln dried maple from various timber yards but Adam recommends against kiln dried wood. Indeed I have already tried some kiln dried maple and it broke at the tip / kasan bend.
Fresh wood is best choice but kiln dreied work too very well. Maple is predominantly composite wood(mostly in Turcic people) but birch and bamboo is older kings. Some evidence is about yew cors (not recomended ?), mulberry ...
making a hornbow is a long process, if you are going to experiment with materials as well then I hope you live a long life in order to acheive success. Like Dusan said people have done the experiments , why repeat them?? use what you know works and concentrate on making a nice bow.
Hazel isn't strong enough for a core, kiln dried maple from a wood yard is relatively east to find not to expensive and will work well, any strong light wood will do for the sahiyas. If you want to experiment then you need a reasonably strong dense wood to match the horn and sinew at least 0.55 SG, maple I believe is about 0.65, this is optimun, heavier woods will add too much weight to the bow, I've heard of ash been used, I have my doubts it was the best bow but it will probably hold up....just my humble opinon...
Hazel isn't strong enough for a core, kiln dried maple from a wood yard is relatively east to find not to expensive and will work well, any strong light wood will do for the sahiyas. If you want to experiment then you need a reasonably strong dense wood to match the horn and sinew at least 0.55 SG, maple I believe is about 0.65, this is optimun, heavier woods will add too much weight to the bow, I've heard of ash been used, I have my doubts it was the best bow but it will probably hold up....just my humble opinon...
I will not dispute that our ancestors did a lot of experimenting, and settled with what worked best for them.
That being said, we have no documentation of these experiments and therefore we don't know if they left out some potentially working species (not counting the artificial materials here) for religious reasons or traditional or perhaps availability.
I'm not claiming to be on the right track for a "superior" hornbow or anything, but merely stating that we know very little about this topic.
I'll probably start out using traditionally used species like mable, but I still think we should experiment some, lest we will never get the same performance as our ancestors did - we simply know too little (though what we know is not too bat at all). :wink:
So - Can we please get back on track and list what species have been used with success for limbs and ears in hornbows? :D
That being said, we have no documentation of these experiments and therefore we don't know if they left out some potentially working species (not counting the artificial materials here) for religious reasons or traditional or perhaps availability.
I'm not claiming to be on the right track for a "superior" hornbow or anything, but merely stating that we know very little about this topic.
I'll probably start out using traditionally used species like mable, but I still think we should experiment some, lest we will never get the same performance as our ancestors did - we simply know too little (though what we know is not too bat at all). :wink:
So - Can we please get back on track and list what species have been used with success for limbs and ears in hornbows? :D
No :lol:. But you can :lol:
Heh - heh!Dusan wrote:
No :lol:. But you can :lol:
Ok - Have fun... I sure do. :lol: