bamboo and wood shafts's spine analisys
but bamboo fibre is very long and stiff and hollow,so,it has almost nothing "snake action"fly line,it fly like rocket,and it is hollow,so,its flyline is directly and float to target,so,it is faster speed and more precise to target.
western people always shoot with spined wood shafts is very scientific way,and their mind is habbit for it,why we sort our bamboo shafts into spine group is satisfying their habit mind.
in fact we do a lot of testing:during 50 meter,we shoot with 50 # bow with 30-70# spines bamboo arrow,and their result is 99% same.
bamboo arrows in china already thousands of years,never 1 chinese shoot with spines bamboo arrows.if 20-30 meter shoot with bamboo arrows is same results with vaired spined bamboo arrows.we say such as:
50# bow,you can shoot 30-70# bamboo arrows.
at least if you want to shoot more precise,if you use 50# bow,you can choice 40-70# spined bamboo shafts ,and during 50meter,they are same results.
japanese and korean bamboo arrow are sorted with weight only,not spine,and they have also thousands of years bamboo arrow exprenced.
if somebady have interesting to study it more deeply,advice you repeat my testing way:shoot 50# bow with 30-70#bamboo arrows,and if you have good quality camera,you can see if they have very few "snake action" fly line.
The fletch node must be 8 inches from the nock end; Each stick must be perfect. I will pay the same as finished shafts, if they are high quality. How can you turn that down? You are not using these sticks at all? Jack
i discuss yourorder with my partner,and we think we are soory no offer such bamboo material,it cost our many time to preparing,also it is not belong to our business scope.jack farrell wrote:
Now you are finally coming to the conclusion which I have given so long ago. For my shooting, you are discarding the perfect shafts which I want; 33inches 25-30 grams, no straightening, no heating, no smoothing, no marking. .
The fletch node must be 8 inches from the nock end; Each stick must be perfect. I will pay the same as finished shafts, if they are high quality. How can you turn that down? You are not using these sticks at all? Jack
I've also found that weight and spine are not necessarily related, with some 60-65# spine shafts the same weight as 40-45#.
Similarly, these same shafts fitted with points varying in weight from 50 to 125 grains performed more or less the same over a 20m distance.
In the west we are so fixated with rules, we apply them everywhere. I believe there are only guidelines, we are individuals and we are all different, how then can we say one rule applies to all?
An arrow that I find ideal for my bow may be awful for another archer, I've witnessed it, just as there is more than one combination of point, fletchings, shaft etc to achieve the same performance.
That is because we are all subjected to the same physics. That is not a contradiction to the fact that different archers may need different arrows for the same bow due to differences in their technique.Orda Khan wrote:
In the west we are so fixated with rules, we apply them everywhere. I believe there are only guidelines, we are individuals and we are all different, how then can we say one rule applies to all?
I have bamboo shafts weighing 33g, some with spine between 60-65# and others with a spine above 92#. Since both arrows have to bend around the grip I don't believe that their stiffness does not matter. But I will test it when I have finished the arrows, then I will see if I am right or wrong with that opinion. My scientific view of life allows me to determine such things by experiment and observation, I consider that a good thing.
Daniel
An arrow that shoots off to the right for one archer can be perfect for the next even from the same bow, it depends a lot on form and aim. There is an old thread mentioning 80lbs spine for 50lbs bow using thumb draw. After making arrows for many years I'm beginning to believe it's down to the shaft. If it wants to become a good arrow it will. It's the only way to explain why two identical, matching arrows can behave differently.
Of course, I would apply scientific logic if I was discussing carbon or other such uniform, inanimate material.
Good luck with the arrows.
Still, it is determined by the same laws of physics for each archer, where the arrow goes. It just the parameters (e.g. sideways force on the arrow nock upon release) that are different for each archer. That is what I meant, consider it nitpicking if you like. I don't disagree that different archers have different needs for arrows.Orda Khan wrote:
I would question whether we are all subject to the same. In theory I would agree but we are not machines that release exactly the same as the next and the arrows are natural material.
I don't mean to be a smart-ass, but if two arrows fly differently they are not identical. I have a (not yet tested) idea that might account for a discrepancy between spine/weight matched arrows and perhaps also for the perceived difference in the dynamical performance of bamboo and wood arrows. I think that bamboo could have very different damping properties than e.g. spruce or pine and therefore it may be more tolerant to spine differences.
While we are it, what is the qualitative difference between matching spine and matching weight and matching node placement? Each of the three is a physical property of the arrow shaft. Why is the first approach a "western scientific one" while the other two are not?
Correct me if I am wrong, but I figured that nodes are matched because the nodes are stiffer and heavier than the parts inbetween, making the bending vary along the shaft. This is very obvious when a shaft is bent by hand. The placement of the stiffer spots influences the arrows deflection by the archer's paradox, which in my opinion relates node placement to spine considerations. I would even call matching the nodes matching the "stiffness (=spine) distribution".
Daniel
I never mentioned science or physics, I said fixated with rules, not science.
The properties of the wood of two (so called) identical arrows was precisely my point. They are a natural material and will not be identical, so applying a rule will not change the outcome.
anyway,sort with some standards is very important,otherwise buyer don't know what he will receive.Orda Khan wrote:
I've also experimented with bamboo shafts that are 'spined' with similar results. Little if any difference. Obviously at some point, the weight of one arrow over another will be evident, which is why total arrow weight of the 9-10:1 is ideal to get maximum performance from the bow.
I've also found that weight and spine are not necessarily related, with some 60-65# spine shafts the same weight as 40-45#.
Similarly, these same shafts fitted with points varying in weight from 50 to 125 grains performed more or less the same over a 20m distance.
In the west we are so fixated with rules, we apply them everywhere. I believe there are only guidelines, we are individuals and we are all different, how then can we say one rule applies to all?
An arrow that I find ideal for my bow may be awful for another archer, I've witnessed it, just as there is more than one combination of point, fletchings, shaft etc to achieve the same performance.
agree,real experiment get final real resultsDaniel T. wrote:
That is because we are all subjected to the same physics. That is not a contradiction to the fact that different archers may need different arrows for the same bow due to differences in their technique.Orda Khan wrote:
In the west we are so fixated with rules, we apply them everywhere. I believe there are only guidelines, we are individuals and we are all different, how then can we say one rule applies to all?
I have bamboo shafts weighing 33g, some with spine between 60-65# and others with a spine above 92#. Since both arrows have to bend around the grip I don't believe that their stiffness does not matter. But I will test it when I have finished the arrows, then I will see if I am right or wrong with that opinion. My scientific view of life allows me to determine such things by experiment and observation, I consider that a good thing.
Daniel
yes,shoot bamboo arrow is more aesthetic than anything else,bamboo arrows belong to tranditional arrows,it come from thousands years ago,in that period,people use bamboo or wood arrow to battle or hunting,but when modern carbon arrow born,people use carbon arrow and modern compund bow to game in olimpic.but tranditional arrow and bows is just more aesthetic than anything else,but also for hunting and trainning or just funning shoot,as we must have the gene in our blood which come from our Ancestors，when we see the bamboo arrows,we feel very Familiar，as if old friend to visit you suddenly and friendly,that is very nice feeling come from basic.but you haven't such feeling when you shoot carbon arrow with compund bow,you feel they are just shoot tool,without anyfeeling.Orda Khan wrote:
Matching nodes may or may not affect the arrows, to me it's more aesthetic than anything else. My experience with bamboo arrows is that good grouping can be obtained regardless of node pattern.
I never mentioned science or physics, I said fixated with rules, not science.
The properties of the wood of two (so called) identical arrows was precisely my point. They are a natural material and will not be identical, so applying a rule will not change the outcome.
A Volkswagen arrow will be a grand disappointment at 100m. Parked next to the Volkswagen arrows are Mercedes shafts. But right now the Mercedes sticks are sent to the junk pile because what is being looked for is Volkswagen.
I do understand your business model and I do not disagree. I have sticks enough and will wait for you to expand into the Mercedes class because the material already exists and the market exists. Or maybe Kashi will get there first.
No one is selling bamboo shafts at the Korean WTAF.
pls remeber most korean use their horn bow to shoot and they bamboo is very light,but may be very weak,some chinese shoot with horn bow and our bamboo arrows more than 200meter,very simple:just up the handle of bow you will shoot longer.jack farrell wrote:
Well Stiven; I told you that there would be little difference with a #50 bow which arrow you choose at 50m. But you should come to Korea to the competition. I have seen the disappointment on many peoples faces when their arrows fall short at 80m and 100m and more. There you can see the difference clearly. And the Koreans shoot with ease to these distances and much more.
A Volkswagen arrow will be a grand disappointment at 100m. Parked next to the Volkswagen arrows are Mercedes shafts. But right now the Mercedes sticks are sent to the junk pile because what is being looked for is Volkswagen.
I do understand your business model and I do not disagree. I have sticks enough and will wait for you to expand into the Mercedes class because the material already exists and the market exists. Or maybe Kashi will get there first.
No one is selling bamboo shafts at the Korean WTAF.
i will come next year to korean and see what happen,still now you don;t know what is tonkin and what is korean bamboo,they are vaired specie.
even i give you the bamboo material they are still tonkin bamboo which is thicker than heavier than korean.korean bamboo arrow cost 40-50$/pc,you can buy from them,and we already devide market of japanese and korean,their market is not my business.and their mind like rock:you don't change them any more.even you break their head,but you can't break their mind.their mind is:all korean items are best quality in the world,like japanese mind(korean were conquelled by japanese about 30-35years may be),i visit korean this year and about 99% cars is their korean made cars,they refuse to buy foreign car,even meceders is much better quality than korean cars.THEY LOVE THEIR COUNTRIES VERY MUCH.AND THEIR MIND AND HEART ARE SO NARROW( THAT IS WHY NOW NORTH AND SOUTH KOREAN START SOME WAR EVEN THEY SPEAK SAME LANGUAGE AND EAT SIMILAR FOOT AND SIMILAR CULTURE,BUT THEIR MIND AND HEART ARE NARROW VERY MUCH AND HATE FILL OF THEIR CHEAT WITHOUT DISCUSS AND RESOLVE PROBLEMS),THEY THINK THEY BUY KOREAN ITEMS CAN KEEP KOREAN IN GOOD ECONOMIC.
i don't kashi can do korean arrow,except he live in korean,and he haven't our equipement and exprenced workers as ours,you can buy from him and compare with mine shafts and show me the photos if possible
I will come korean next year to show them my bamboo arrow shafts and long size horn strips etc and also want to take part in the game and see something new items for fun.jack farrell wrote:
At Korean WTAF, more than 100 archers from around the world arrive for 5 days. You will find many new customers there.
tiger
Jack loves Mercedes. Jack wants to buy a Mercedes (paid the price as a Mercedes), but the car dealer, Volkswagen ...jack farrell wrote:
I have seen the disappointment on many peoples faces when their arrows fall short at 80m and 100m and more. There you can see the difference clearly. And the Koreans shoot with ease to these distances and much more.
A Volkswagen arrow will be a grand disappointment at 100m. Parked next to the Volkswagen arrows are Mercedes shafts. But right now the Mercedes sticks are sent to the junk pile because what is being looked for is Volkswagen.
It is clear that no test persuade him to love Volkswagen.
The ability to shoot at 80 and 100 m is given more training options. Most archers not able to shoot at greater distances than 30 m.
A good archer will shoot a good arrow bamboo 80-100 meters - there is little possibility of intervention. This may confirm the archers of Romania. Shooting at 20 and 25m. The Naadam competition 2010 (Czech Republic) had a problem just shoot long distance event. They are good archers, but without the possibility of training for long distances.
This does not affect the bamboo.
Yes, I agree. This corresponds to my findings. Natural materials are not homogeneous. Formulas and calculations are good, but useless. I repeat - it is good to make 20 to 30 arrows and select the same set of 12 pieces (good shooter).Orda Khan wrote:
Matching nodes may or may not affect the arrows, to me it's more aesthetic than anything else. My experience with bamboo arrows is that good grouping can be obtained regardless of node pattern.
I never mentioned science or physics, I said fixated with rules, not science.
The properties of the wood of two (so called) identical arrows was precisely my point. They are a natural material and will not be identical, so applying a rule will not change the outcome.
some people wanto buy merceders but want to pay the price as volkswagen,it is just the ideal dream not real case.
This is a very important point. Finding an area that can accomodate distances of 100m+ is hard enough. Safety considerations (overshoot, backdrop, the public) make it harder still and near impossible to practice long distance. The longest clear shot possible at my club would be somewhere around 80m and even then it is over uneven ground, on a hill, across a stream and into some birch trees :shock: :lol:jchocz wrote:
They are good archers, but without the possibility of training for long distances.