Sheep horn as a material in composite bowmaking
Inspired by the recent thread on essential books for composite bomakers and Jack's fine replica of a sheep/sinew bow I thought I would try to spark a discussion on the use of sheep horn in composite bowmaking.
Hopefuly we could get an advice on dealing with sheep horn from those who have already used it.
Of course there is a lot of species of sheep, thus the properties of horn perhaps vary.
My main point here is that sheep horn would perhaps be an easier, or cheaper option for some. Also, it is perhaps often quite an overlooked possible source of good material to be used, the sheep horns may look quite unpromising at the first glance.
There have been also some speculations that sheep horn could be actually used more extensively in some Asian types of composites.
Once again I'm positing a link to an intriguing article on the matter, thanks to our Turkish friends for putting this up;
http://www.tirendaz.com/en/?page_id=322
I was given a pair of Merino sheep horn recently, the material seems to be very promising, though due to the curvature in the horns they at first appear to be of no use, but once measured they should produce strips about 17" long, or even longer.
The cross section of the horns is more or less triangular, if you'll examine a Merino horn closer, one of it's surfaces, apart form a sideways curve, doesn't have a twist to it, thus probably only one good quality usable strip can be possibly sourced from a single horn.
The horn appears to be quite dense and resilaint, with no apparant easily separtaing itself layers to it, like in cow horn for example.
The uneven outer surface doesn't seem to be a problem, the horn appears to be thick enoguh to get an usable piece safely.
[external image]
[external image]
[external image]
[external image]
Any comments on how to work with sheep horn would be much appeciated.
Hopefuly we could get an advice on dealing with sheep horn from those who have already used it.
Of course there is a lot of species of sheep, thus the properties of horn perhaps vary.
My main point here is that sheep horn would perhaps be an easier, or cheaper option for some. Also, it is perhaps often quite an overlooked possible source of good material to be used, the sheep horns may look quite unpromising at the first glance.
There have been also some speculations that sheep horn could be actually used more extensively in some Asian types of composites.
Once again I'm positing a link to an intriguing article on the matter, thanks to our Turkish friends for putting this up;
http://www.tirendaz.com/en/?page_id=322
I was given a pair of Merino sheep horn recently, the material seems to be very promising, though due to the curvature in the horns they at first appear to be of no use, but once measured they should produce strips about 17" long, or even longer.
The cross section of the horns is more or less triangular, if you'll examine a Merino horn closer, one of it's surfaces, apart form a sideways curve, doesn't have a twist to it, thus probably only one good quality usable strip can be possibly sourced from a single horn.
The horn appears to be quite dense and resilaint, with no apparant easily separtaing itself layers to it, like in cow horn for example.
The uneven outer surface doesn't seem to be a problem, the horn appears to be thick enoguh to get an usable piece safely.
[external image]
![[external image]](https://lh6.ggpht.com/_Z6PThatMUkQ/TLt9NBROt_I/AAAAAAAACTI/_uZxxRLU2gk/s640/DSCF4108.JPG){kind=link}
[external image]
![[external image]](https://lh5.ggpht.com/_Z6PThatMUkQ/TLt9OcngEOI/AAAAAAAACTI/bMqGVl0iUP8/s400/DSCF4111.JPG){kind=link}
[external image]
![[external image]](https://lh6.ggpht.com/_Z6PThatMUkQ/TLt9PV05BYI/AAAAAAAACTI/F-2uH2bi4SE/s400/DSCF4112.JPG){kind=link}
[external image]
![[external image]](https://lh6.ggpht.com/_Z6PThatMUkQ/TLt9QNTKZZI/AAAAAAAACTI/kNvgJEVTDzY/s400/DSCF4113.JPG){kind=link}
Any comments on how to work with sheep horn would be much appeciated.
Ashbow, this pair of horns will be good for a fine bow.
For whatever reason sheephorn- bows are underestimated. Cause of the lack of a stabilizing wooden core sheephorn bows are very sensitive to humidity. Tiller will change every now and then, which made me crazy till I?ve had to realize this as a fact and learned how to get by with it.
Sheephorn bows are great little bows, the best I did, shot a flightarrow about 300yards, 48lbs at 23".
I guess it is possible to use sheephorn in an Asian style hornbow too as a belly glued to a wooden core and sinew- backed.
Just cut the outer curves of the horns, straighten them with heat and work them to an even thickness of about 4- 5mm.
Good luck, Michael
For whatever reason sheephorn- bows are underestimated. Cause of the lack of a stabilizing wooden core sheephorn bows are very sensitive to humidity. Tiller will change every now and then, which made me crazy till I?ve had to realize this as a fact and learned how to get by with it.
Sheephorn bows are great little bows, the best I did, shot a flightarrow about 300yards, 48lbs at 23".
I guess it is possible to use sheephorn in an Asian style hornbow too as a belly glued to a wooden core and sinew- backed.
Just cut the outer curves of the horns, straighten them with heat and work them to an even thickness of about 4- 5mm.
Good luck, Michael
I do not see any problems with sheep horn in the composites. I made one a while back with reasonable success, although the small horns did not allow me to cut strips wide enough for a heavier bow. I suggest to let the horns dry for a few months before use however.
There are bows in museums (also selfbows of horn) with horn of amber colour and nearly transparent. I tend to believe these horne were actually sheep, since buff horns, even white, are less transparent and are rather greyish than yellow.
Adam
There are bows in museums (also selfbows of horn) with horn of amber colour and nearly transparent. I tend to believe these horne were actually sheep, since buff horns, even white, are less transparent and are rather greyish than yellow.
Adam
Adam, the semi-transparent, amber coloured horn can be baleen, too. Saw an old military (?) Yumi with that kind of stuff on the belly recently.
Apart from that I think there is no difference in horn quality between sheep horn and buffalo horn. It?s only more difficult to obtain a straight strip...
JJ
Apart from that I think there is no difference in horn quality between sheep horn and buffalo horn. It?s only more difficult to obtain a straight strip...
JJ
Michael, that's a decent distanse you got there, congratulations.
I remember Charles Grayson reporting the possible instability issue of horn/sinew bows. I would also like to hear Jack's opinion here, as he wrote he haven't have those problems with his replica.
My goal is to get away with as little heat straightenning as possible.
So far I've been considering a Hunnic type of composite, so I'll be most probably gluing them to a wooden core.
Adam, did those bows in the museums were of Turkish type?
That's probably a daft question, but is it possible to 'overdry' the horns if you store them for some years? The ones I got have been in storage probably for a couple of years.
JJ, it somehow seems to me that this sheep horn is somehow tougher than buffalo horn, at least to process. Haven't cut into it yet, just an impression.
I remember Charles Grayson reporting the possible instability issue of horn/sinew bows. I would also like to hear Jack's opinion here, as he wrote he haven't have those problems with his replica.
My goal is to get away with as little heat straightenning as possible.
So far I've been considering a Hunnic type of composite, so I'll be most probably gluing them to a wooden core.
Adam, did those bows in the museums were of Turkish type?
That's probably a daft question, but is it possible to 'overdry' the horns if you store them for some years? The ones I got have been in storage probably for a couple of years.
JJ, it somehow seems to me that this sheep horn is somehow tougher than buffalo horn, at least to process. Haven't cut into it yet, just an impression.
The bows were of the Turkish type, and the all-horn bow was in the Topkapi Palace. There is no way it could be baleen, it was definitely horn and quite thick at close to 1cm for the composite and probably more than that for the self horn bow.
I would not worry about overdrying horn. I have used horn stored for more than ten years with no trouble.
Adam
I would not worry about overdrying horn. I have used horn stored for more than ten years with no trouble.
Adam
I will just pass on some ideas. What I have used for several bows is Mouflon; maybe Mouflon Barbados (?) hybrid. They are sort of mixed together around here. The horns have a different cross section to what is showed for the Merino. The outside curve is very thick and 18-20 inch slats are not too difficult to obtain.
Because of the thick horn, I find it useful to abandon the original flat surface and angle into the spiral for a flatter beginning slat. I have gotten away from steam bending and just go to direct heat from a gas stove flame. I believe that it is possible to pass the boiling point temperature without damage. This has a more profound effect for bending.
Things to avoid are horns that have been stored in the weather. Stored horns must stay under cover. If rams are kept together they will fight and do excessive damage to the horn. Breaks and interior damage is common in this case. Poor diet results in deep cross groves to the horns. These are a type of record of the animal's health. A very stressful season can degrade the horn or make it useless.
Horn can be processed into narrow strips. Two impossible strips laid side by side with the curve opposite to eachother can effectively neutralize the twist and bend.
Though Ibex is easier to process than sheep, sheep horn is much stiffer. However, I have to agree with Adam that the softness of Ibex is somewhat lost in the mix of sinew and wood.
Despite what some say, the bandsaw is the tool for processing horn, especially sheep horn. About one third of the horn is removed carefully with the outer layer and the slats are slowly carved out. That one slat is the prize and it is foolish to risk its loss by being too conservative. The loss with the bandsaw occurs because you see the upper portion but you severely undercut the underside of the cut.
You can make a spiral cut with even a wide blade, you must start steering early and stop and back up immediately if there is an undercut.
Because of the thick horn, I find it useful to abandon the original flat surface and angle into the spiral for a flatter beginning slat. I have gotten away from steam bending and just go to direct heat from a gas stove flame. I believe that it is possible to pass the boiling point temperature without damage. This has a more profound effect for bending.
Things to avoid are horns that have been stored in the weather. Stored horns must stay under cover. If rams are kept together they will fight and do excessive damage to the horn. Breaks and interior damage is common in this case. Poor diet results in deep cross groves to the horns. These are a type of record of the animal's health. A very stressful season can degrade the horn or make it useless.
Horn can be processed into narrow strips. Two impossible strips laid side by side with the curve opposite to eachother can effectively neutralize the twist and bend.
Though Ibex is easier to process than sheep, sheep horn is much stiffer. However, I have to agree with Adam that the softness of Ibex is somewhat lost in the mix of sinew and wood.
Despite what some say, the bandsaw is the tool for processing horn, especially sheep horn. About one third of the horn is removed carefully with the outer layer and the slats are slowly carved out. That one slat is the prize and it is foolish to risk its loss by being too conservative. The loss with the bandsaw occurs because you see the upper portion but you severely undercut the underside of the cut.
You can make a spiral cut with even a wide blade, you must start steering early and stop and back up immediately if there is an undercut.
Jack, I disagree in determing the bandsaw as the ultimate tool for cutting horn. Even for a professional. I has worked as a cabinet- maker for years, I cut my firewood, bow staves...........etc. with my bandsaw, I use the bandsaw every day. I cut horn too with the bandsaw, it tooks me a lot of broken blades (even I used slaughter house blades)and almost everytime somewhat dangerous happened. Horn is hard and springy, the cutting angles are always changing.
Now I use the flex with a small blade and cut the horn exactlyalong my marks from both sides. Cutting with the bandsaw, you?ve to go along the upper side and you can?t see whats happening at the other side.
Hands off cutting horn with a bandsaw.
Michael
Now I use the flex with a small blade and cut the horn exactlyalong my marks from both sides. Cutting with the bandsaw, you?ve to go along the upper side and you can?t see whats happening at the other side.
Hands off cutting horn with a bandsaw.
Michael
I have no doubt that the bandsaw works well for Jack, but I would as well share Michael's concerns about the safety issue. If you are not sure about your set up and what you are doing, better stay away from bandsaw, it can be a dangerous tool. I work with bandsaw on daily basics too, but often feel a bit uneasy when cutting some more uneven pieces. You always need to be sure that the piece you want to cut is resting properly so that there is less chance of bending the blade. When you happen to trap the blade you may not be able to switch the saw off in time, the blade can band and break and some nasty things can happen, it's not a pleasent experience when you loose control when the cutting is in progress...
HA! I know just what you two mean. A band saw is a meat and bone cutting machine. Some really exciting things can and do occur when using this tool. However this is really no different than any other wood working machine. If you loose respect for the dangerous nature of the task, you are immediately at risk.
(Come on Michael. If you are already cutting firewood on your bandsaw, you are already doing the most dangerous task that this machine can do.)
Given that your machine has two factory wheel guards, another guard on the upper blade guide and a strong motor and sharp blade, a lever cut off under the bed is a plus. Don't forget to use the upper guide at its lowest setting.
Now what do you guys think of my technique where one is not attempting to saw off a slat but to rip a large portion of the horn from the outer curve?
(Come on Michael. If you are already cutting firewood on your bandsaw, you are already doing the most dangerous task that this machine can do.)
Given that your machine has two factory wheel guards, another guard on the upper blade guide and a strong motor and sharp blade, a lever cut off under the bed is a plus. Don't forget to use the upper guide at its lowest setting.
Now what do you guys think of my technique where one is not attempting to saw off a slat but to rip a large portion of the horn from the outer curve?
We are talked some time ago in another threads about another than Buff horns. Its evidently that Mongolia from Baykal to middle Asia mountain kings- Ibex or big wild sheep-Argal was the primary source of horn for hornbows. Water Buffalo horns is second animal in history hornbows. Rams , and Muflon horns was very clos to this big Asian animals- but i dont agree vith JJ- this horns was very diferent against buff horns.
Thats no metter how you cut horn. Importnt is good plate :lol:
Thats no metter how you cut horn. Importnt is good plate :lol:
Dusan, what do you think is different about the sheep horn?
Jack, as I wrote, I'm sure the bandsaw works well for you, I cannot see a problem with using one for the purpouse you described.
Yeah, all those cuts, grinded fingers etc... We could perhaps have an endless discussion on what scary things craftsmen are able to do with tools to get the results they want.
Still, I somehow have much more respect for bandsaw, than for example belt sander.
The safety issue aslo depends on what type of bandsaw you are dealing with, I now work with a pretty modern one, with all those guards etc, but I also have dealt with a huge ancient monster with pretty much exposd blade and wheels, having a blade trapped on one of those is pretty much an exciting thing, I can tell, as is a blade broken while the cutting is in progress. I still shiver when thinking of one particular moment.
But as mentioned, bandsaws have been used to cut through nearly everything, for example my friend employes one for extracting deer brains for tanning.
Jack, as I wrote, I'm sure the bandsaw works well for you, I cannot see a problem with using one for the purpouse you described.
Yeah, all those cuts, grinded fingers etc... We could perhaps have an endless discussion on what scary things craftsmen are able to do with tools to get the results they want.
Still, I somehow have much more respect for bandsaw, than for example belt sander.
The safety issue aslo depends on what type of bandsaw you are dealing with, I now work with a pretty modern one, with all those guards etc, but I also have dealt with a huge ancient monster with pretty much exposd blade and wheels, having a blade trapped on one of those is pretty much an exciting thing, I can tell, as is a blade broken while the cutting is in progress. I still shiver when thinking of one particular moment.
But as mentioned, bandsaws have been used to cut through nearly everything, for example my friend employes one for extracting deer brains for tanning.
Diferent elasticity, diferent material (not only color), I cant prove this vith some physics experiments / i dont do it/ , but i feel this in mi experimental bows. Very diferent feel ... :lol:
