12 points for horseback archers.
here are some things according to what i know from Persian Horseback Archery.
1.know your maneuver space on horse, keep the bow handle firmly on horse whiters for back Tirkash & firmly on the tip of the tirkash for belt Tirkash.
2.Never use arrows as whip for the horse, the horse must never think of an arrow as a threat.
3.Always keep arrows in quiver, fast movements & playing of a horse with unprotected arrows is dangerous for both horse & rider.
4.always tie the tail of the horse before shooting, same for hair on withers.
5.shoot the arrow while are 4 legs are off the ground.
6.beware of the bottom of the bow touching horse's back while doing a Parthian shot.
7.aim left, for Parthian shot & front shots, shoot few meters before the target for side shots.
8.eliminate all unnecessary movement of the upper body.
9.if the horse has never seen bow and arrow, let him smell it and then touch his chest in a kind matter, do the same while riding before shooting.
10.use the weight, seat & knees to guide the horse without using hands.
11.never look at the soofar (nock) for loading.lock on the target.
12.Practice dynamic shooting on foot.
Sit Tight & Enjoy!
1.know your maneuver space on horse, keep the bow handle firmly on horse whiters for back Tirkash & firmly on the tip of the tirkash for belt Tirkash.
2.Never use arrows as whip for the horse, the horse must never think of an arrow as a threat.
3.Always keep arrows in quiver, fast movements & playing of a horse with unprotected arrows is dangerous for both horse & rider.
4.always tie the tail of the horse before shooting, same for hair on withers.
5.shoot the arrow while are 4 legs are off the ground.
6.beware of the bottom of the bow touching horse's back while doing a Parthian shot.
7.aim left, for Parthian shot & front shots, shoot few meters before the target for side shots.
8.eliminate all unnecessary movement of the upper body.
9.if the horse has never seen bow and arrow, let him smell it and then touch his chest in a kind matter, do the same while riding before shooting.
10.use the weight, seat & knees to guide the horse without using hands.
11.never look at the soofar (nock) for loading.lock on the target.
12.Practice dynamic shooting on foot.
Sit Tight & Enjoy!
Zarasp,
While I agree with some of your points, I think others are more to do with modern systems of riding than those practised in Iran before the introduction of Western cavalry training.
I have seen photographs from Luristan in the 1930s showing horsemen with exactly the same bridle and reins as in Safavid miniatures. What I am talking about is the use of a simple bridle, a ring bit with a strap running up from the ring through the throat latch back down under the breast strap to the girth. This is the same equipment that Iranian riders always use when contrasted with Turanian warriors in the paintings. The Turanians are shown with snaffle bits and half nose bands.
It is part 10 that I have some problems with. The standard approach was to train the horse to run straight while shooting with the reins dropped. Shooting and manoeuvring were rarely tried at the same time. If your horse responds to leg aids while you are shooting, it might think you want it to turn when instead you are turning in the saddle to shoot at someone off to the rear. Anything that confuses the horse puts your life at risk. I am referring to subtle movements of the body and weight rather than emergency changes meant to save you from a collision.
Number 5 is something that has come up recently, but is really a result of most modern archers sitting down in their saddles rather than standing and leaning forward. I doubt that most old horse archers ever worried about the position of their horses' feet. They usually shot at full gallop, not the fast canter you see in Europe, and kept their bodies steady while absorbing the horse's movement with their legs.
I have had number 6 happen and luckily the horse did not worry, but it certainly is a risk that if the horse is hit it might shy and cause the rider some serious problems.
I think your recommendations enhance the safety in shooting and should be encouraged. It is important that the horse not feel threatened by the archery equipment. I saw a horse go into a panic once because it saw the bow move out of the corner of its eye. No one was hurt, but that was because of the rider's fast reflexes. Some horses are too nervous to be used in horse archery without considerable training.
We used to take the arrows and let the horse nuzzle them to convince it that they were not a threat (and not edible). Horses were happy to stand around while we were shooting and I think that desensitised them to having arrows shot from their backs. Familiarity with the noises and sight of the equipment is a good practice.
While I agree with some of your points, I think others are more to do with modern systems of riding than those practised in Iran before the introduction of Western cavalry training.
I have seen photographs from Luristan in the 1930s showing horsemen with exactly the same bridle and reins as in Safavid miniatures. What I am talking about is the use of a simple bridle, a ring bit with a strap running up from the ring through the throat latch back down under the breast strap to the girth. This is the same equipment that Iranian riders always use when contrasted with Turanian warriors in the paintings. The Turanians are shown with snaffle bits and half nose bands.
It is part 10 that I have some problems with. The standard approach was to train the horse to run straight while shooting with the reins dropped. Shooting and manoeuvring were rarely tried at the same time. If your horse responds to leg aids while you are shooting, it might think you want it to turn when instead you are turning in the saddle to shoot at someone off to the rear. Anything that confuses the horse puts your life at risk. I am referring to subtle movements of the body and weight rather than emergency changes meant to save you from a collision.
Number 5 is something that has come up recently, but is really a result of most modern archers sitting down in their saddles rather than standing and leaning forward. I doubt that most old horse archers ever worried about the position of their horses' feet. They usually shot at full gallop, not the fast canter you see in Europe, and kept their bodies steady while absorbing the horse's movement with their legs.
I have had number 6 happen and luckily the horse did not worry, but it certainly is a risk that if the horse is hit it might shy and cause the rider some serious problems.
I think your recommendations enhance the safety in shooting and should be encouraged. It is important that the horse not feel threatened by the archery equipment. I saw a horse go into a panic once because it saw the bow move out of the corner of its eye. No one was hurt, but that was because of the rider's fast reflexes. Some horses are too nervous to be used in horse archery without considerable training.
We used to take the arrows and let the horse nuzzle them to convince it that they were not a threat (and not edible). Horses were happy to stand around while we were shooting and I think that desensitised them to having arrows shot from their backs. Familiarity with the noises and sight of the equipment is a good practice.
yes you are right,
some of these i learned from tradition, rest of them (numbers 5-9) came from dealing with people afraid of full gallop! hehe.
although I learned archery must be in gallop,last week i saw a video of a man called Kassay and his horse was so slow but he was very fast, he didnt do many of these things,eg. tying tail, putting hand on tirkash etc... but he was a very good archer in my opinion,
but about number 10, i think a good horseman must be able to HINT his horse about the direction he wants without confusing him, i find it absolutely essential for horseback archery, we take the good students on racetrack where they try (and sometimes dont succeed) in bringing a very fast horse to the center & closer to the target using only the opposite knee pressure, if they dont do it, they will have to shoot from 20+ meters to the side which i have NEVER seen happen successfully, at least WE are not good enough to do that.
we spend at least one day with a new horse before giving it to the students, most of our horses need less than an hour before we consider them cooperative and safe, maybe because they have Polo experience.
thanx very much for the insight.
Zarasp.
ps.please share the bridle photos or sketches if possible.
some of these i learned from tradition, rest of them (numbers 5-9) came from dealing with people afraid of full gallop! hehe.
although I learned archery must be in gallop,last week i saw a video of a man called Kassay and his horse was so slow but he was very fast, he didnt do many of these things,eg. tying tail, putting hand on tirkash etc... but he was a very good archer in my opinion,
but about number 10, i think a good horseman must be able to HINT his horse about the direction he wants without confusing him, i find it absolutely essential for horseback archery, we take the good students on racetrack where they try (and sometimes dont succeed) in bringing a very fast horse to the center & closer to the target using only the opposite knee pressure, if they dont do it, they will have to shoot from 20+ meters to the side which i have NEVER seen happen successfully, at least WE are not good enough to do that.
we spend at least one day with a new horse before giving it to the students, most of our horses need less than an hour before we consider them cooperative and safe, maybe because they have Polo experience.
thanx very much for the insight.
Zarasp.
ps.please share the bridle photos or sketches if possible.
No. 5 I believe, like Bede that it's something new
A war archer may shoot at the exact moment where it is possible
and not wait for the horse's movement.
I do think you're right that Horseback Archery can only be done at a gallop.
I do not shoot a bow from horseback, but last week I was out and help
some Horseback Archery with bow technique.
And while I trained them, I looked at them with my foot archery experience,
I believe that Horseback Archery can only be done at a gallop,
otherwise the horse and the man is just a big easy target !
Maybe it's why many cultures never used bows on horseback,
they were not fast and good enough riders that it was an advantage?
sincerely,
Lars Andersen
A war archer may shoot at the exact moment where it is possible
and not wait for the horse's movement.
I do think you're right that Horseback Archery can only be done at a gallop.
I do not shoot a bow from horseback, but last week I was out and help
some Horseback Archery with bow technique.
And while I trained them, I looked at them with my foot archery experience,
I believe that Horseback Archery can only be done at a gallop,
otherwise the horse and the man is just a big easy target !
Maybe it's why many cultures never used bows on horseback,
they were not fast and good enough riders that it was an advantage?
sincerely,
Lars Andersen
Good point Lars. I always try to emphasize this point. Our horseback archer ancestors, be it Ottoman or Seljuk, had to be faster than a European Knight of that time, charging at full gallop at them with a lance :)
Just have a look at these:
http://youtu.be/e5KOL98W6j0
If you are not fast enough you gonna be pierced by a lance, that simple.
thanks
Gokmen
Just have a look at these:
http://youtu.be/e5KOL98W6j0
If you are not fast enough you gonna be pierced by a lance, that simple.
thanks
Gokmen
please everyone!
if you want to think of archery as a sport, please dont think of only wars & warriors,
also, hunters were probably very effective in strengthening techniques for archery ,
catching boar or hunting rabbits on horse is so beautiful & exciting & it is also much more recent than the wars....
i hope to someday show the horse following rabbits on video....
if you want to think of archery as a sport, please dont think of only wars & warriors,
also, hunters were probably very effective in strengthening techniques for archery ,
catching boar or hunting rabbits on horse is so beautiful & exciting & it is also much more recent than the wars....
i hope to someday show the horse following rabbits on video....
Some very good points have been made here. It is important to differentiate horse archery the sport from horse archery used in hunting and war. The two major exercises used in the Middle East for horse archery, qabaq and qighaj shooting were both training for war by developing dexterity and accuracy and demonstrations of the skill of the participants before their military superiors and the general public.
Even though Yabusame for instance is a long way away from war archery, it has preserved many of the preoccupations of military horse archers. I have seen this done at the gallop and the speed and dexterity is impressive. I have also watched Kassai Lajos practicing and he is a very good archer. I believe the slower pace used by him and many horse archers today is due to the fact that in sport archery, there isn't the same pressure to get in and get out quickly. After all, no one is usually shooting back.
Rabbits have been a preoccupation in Australia for years, but the general experience is that rabbit holes are bad for horses' legs. May I suggest hunting hares. They don't dig holes. The Manchu emperors thought they were good sport from horseback.
I do agree that you must maintain some leg control of your horse. I have seen film from Mongolia of a horseman shooting an AK47 at full gallop. He almost threw his little horse to one side to correct its course. The filming was head on and it was not a subtle riding school move. What I was commenting on was the concept that there was a lot of leg control used. Some of the techniques used in shooting from horseback are hard to imagine if the horse was paying attention to the rider's legs. My understanding of military technique in the nineteenth century was that the horse ignored leg aids after the reins were dropped, but was trained to obey them when the reins were in use.
Even though Yabusame for instance is a long way away from war archery, it has preserved many of the preoccupations of military horse archers. I have seen this done at the gallop and the speed and dexterity is impressive. I have also watched Kassai Lajos practicing and he is a very good archer. I believe the slower pace used by him and many horse archers today is due to the fact that in sport archery, there isn't the same pressure to get in and get out quickly. After all, no one is usually shooting back.
Rabbits have been a preoccupation in Australia for years, but the general experience is that rabbit holes are bad for horses' legs. May I suggest hunting hares. They don't dig holes. The Manchu emperors thought they were good sport from horseback.
I do agree that you must maintain some leg control of your horse. I have seen film from Mongolia of a horseman shooting an AK47 at full gallop. He almost threw his little horse to one side to correct its course. The filming was head on and it was not a subtle riding school move. What I was commenting on was the concept that there was a lot of leg control used. Some of the techniques used in shooting from horseback are hard to imagine if the horse was paying attention to the rider's legs. My understanding of military technique in the nineteenth century was that the horse ignored leg aids after the reins were dropped, but was trained to obey them when the reins were in use.
This is an absolutely valid point & in horseback archery, even today, teaching the horse to go straight is a must,Bede wrote:
Some of the techniques used in shooting from horseback are hard to imagine if the horse was paying attention to the rider's legs
my point is that when we look at it as a sport it becomes more competitive.
from my own Personal experience,
2 riders with equal skills, 90m course, single shot Korean style, same horse.
1st scenario:
1st rider scores a 4 & rides with same speed to finish line.
2nd rider scores a 4 & applies leg pressure & seat after hitting the target at 45 meters.
of course the second rider will have a faster time & thus win.
2nd scenario:
1st rider leaves the horse in a track that is 4m wide, target is 5m away from the track ,
he shoots the target to the side from 5-9 meters depending on what path the horse chooses.
2nd rider brings horse inside, & shoots from 5m disregarding of what horse wants.
i think the 2nd rider has a better chance of a higher score.
and of course as Bede mentioned, its very important to do these without confusing the horse,
so if one does not posses top horsemanship skills, its best just to leave the horse & not confuse him.
in my humble opinion these are the details which will help the SPORT of horseback archery to reach the next level without
harming the rich historical backgrounds
& also gain more respect for the sport,
critiques of horseback archery need to see that it is not just a historical reenactment
but a real competitive sport, in which technique , multiple skills & tactic is measured to the limits.
Zarasp.
OH, our rabbits dont make holes, the make nests, maybe its a different rabbit from Australia, this exercise is done very close to our horse complex, & Polo horses & riders like it, its not really galloping but more of a Stop-Start sort of exercise, currently we dont shoot them, we go with polo people, we just sit tight & enjoy the view! (although i am really tempted to bring a bow there, hehe)Bede wrote:
Rabbits have been a preoccupation in Australia for years, but the general experience is that rabbit holes are bad for horses' legs.
It must be a very clear distinction between sport and the ancient war and hunting.
Kassai Lajos is a good example, he is a great archer and horseman
and will be mentioned in history to have invented a modern horseback archery sports. and it is good
But his "sport" is mixed together with Hungary folklore, costumes and modern carbon fiber bows
disguised as traditional bows and some semi-religious
and with a story around that they are the true historical archers, and so it is problematic.
Zarasp
I look forward to one day see a video where you are hunting rabbits
sincerely,
Lars Andersen
Kassai Lajos is a good example, he is a great archer and horseman
and will be mentioned in history to have invented a modern horseback archery sports. and it is good
But his "sport" is mixed together with Hungary folklore, costumes and modern carbon fiber bows
disguised as traditional bows and some semi-religious
and with a story around that they are the true historical archers, and so it is problematic.
Zarasp
I look forward to one day see a video where you are hunting rabbits
sincerely,
Lars Andersen
Yes i have tried many of his bows & i have seen his videos i am also reading his book, i have alot of respect for his hard work & dedication but his way of archery & horsemanship is very different from what i know.lars andersen wrote:
It must be a very clear distinction between sport and the ancient war and hunting.
Kassai Lajos is a good example, he is a great archer and horseman
and will be mentioned in history to have invented a modern horseback archery sports. and it is good
But his "sport" is mixed together with Hungary folklore, costumes and modern carbon fiber bows
disguised as traditional bows and some semi-religious
and with a story around that they are the true historical archers, and so it is problematic.
Zarasp,
From your description of the nests, what you call rabbits, we call hares.
From your description of the nests, what you call rabbits, we call hares.
LOL! once again my lack of skill in english vocabulary...Bede wrote:
Zarasp,
From your description of the nests, what you call rabbits, we call hares.
Not all native English speakers know the difference. Your English is fine.
Dear Zarasp, May I see a picture of the horses you are riding?
Yes of course Stephen, we have too many for individual pictures but here are a few pictures of my fav horses which we use for archery & our race track, of course we use the race track only for VERY experienced archery students, a horse like Nava or any ex-race horse can easily hurt someone there!
the middle one , my favorite ARYAN, 13YO, not a horse for everyone but his 0-MAX... is outstanding,you better load your 1st arrow quickly, look at those hind muscles...
the middle one , my favorite ARYAN, 13YO, not a horse for everyone but his 0-MAX... is outstanding,you better load your 1st arrow quickly, look at those hind muscles...
the one i am riding, GACHKAR, 7YO , short but quick, we use it for intermediate students.
1st from right Toofan (means storm) we loved this horse for archery but we had to give him up because his back was moving too much for archery students, he had long legs & shallow back.
3rd one Mehraban (means Kind), we use him for our slower practices, because he is used to spurs...
3rd one Mehraban (means Kind), we use him for our slower practices, because he is used to spurs...
and last but certainly not least Nava, our fastest Archery horse, on a good day he does our 100m track in about 5 seconds, unfortunately at the moment we cannot let any student ride him, because of his temperament and his speed... i use him for single & double shot practice.
another pic of beautiful NAVA.
Nava means sound
Many of these have conformation like English Thoroughbreds (ex Turkish stock). But I guess if you are using them for polo, they are around 150-155cm at the withers - smaller than a standard thoroughbred racehorse. Are they a local breed or imported?
in the pictures you see different breeds, the Argentinian Polo ponies of Polo federation & our school horses which i mentioned, Nava for example is a Standard halfblood race thoroughbred +160cm, the tallest is ARYAN about 165 & the shortest one is the American breed (Gachkar) at about 155, most of our school horses are thoroughbred because it is first & foremost a racing complex, then came Polo & very recently Archery.
i have read that shorter horses are better for archery but i dont understand it according to our horsemanship....
edit: for comparison i am 181cm.
i have read that shorter horses are better for archery but i dont understand it according to our horsemanship....
edit: for comparison i am 181cm.
This is my personal opinion. Smaller horses are good for archery because they often run quite smoothly and as they are small, more inexperienced riders are not afraid. But Mongolian steppe ponies were not much used in warfare. Instead, the best is something like the Yili horses of West China, which are a mix between steppe ponies (for hardiness) and Russian military horses (for size.) I think that 155-160cm is fine. I do not like thoroughbreds for archery because their temperament is too unstable. Kabardian horses, Australian and American quarter horses are good, too. They are quite intelligent.
Oh yes, i see,
I like Kabardian horses, Karabakh & Turkmens specially Akhals, and of course Kurdish & i once fell in love with a Marwari horse, it was almost a perfect horse!
today i was in class with a student & a Yamut Turkman, (replacement for our half blood "Storm") this horse ran our archery course more than 20 times without even tiring, or changing speed, i was very impressed.
but after all, i absolutely love Thoroughbreds, its true that they are very intense, but this extreme fervid & zealous character of a race thoroughbred is very appealing to me, i agree they can be very dangerous for imperfect horseman but believe me,in hands of a good horseman these horses give you wings, its a unique experience...
edit: i used the dictionary for 2 words (fervid & zealous),i hope it was correct!
I like Kabardian horses, Karabakh & Turkmens specially Akhals, and of course Kurdish & i once fell in love with a Marwari horse, it was almost a perfect horse!
today i was in class with a student & a Yamut Turkman, (replacement for our half blood "Storm") this horse ran our archery course more than 20 times without even tiring, or changing speed, i was very impressed.
but after all, i absolutely love Thoroughbreds, its true that they are very intense, but this extreme fervid & zealous character of a race thoroughbred is very appealing to me, i agree they can be very dangerous for imperfect horseman but believe me,in hands of a good horseman these horses give you wings, its a unique experience...
edit: i used the dictionary for 2 words (fervid & zealous),i hope it was correct!
With thoroghbreds, they can be ok in ideal conditions; but once you get photographers or a crowd making a noise, they can behave badly.
Hi Stephen,
may I slightly disagree?
I rode many different breeds, but before I rode mostly Arabian horses in Turkey. More than one and a half years ago I moved to Ireland and started a sport called 'Polocrosse', it is similar to polo, just a bit rougher.
Here a video to give everybody an idea: http://youtu.be/vnhehVNlsFY
And attached a picture of me on my first tournment.
The horses and the horsemanship here is so exceptional. Before I was an Arab fan but now I see, for 'battle horses' there is not better horses than these thoroughbreds.
They dont use the tall too muscly, overtrained race horses though. They use 15-16hh horses. They are very athletic, clear in their mind and not afraid of anything. A full blow in the face or any other part with the racket happens sometimes and the horses are really coldblooded. After the crazy Arabians of Turkey I feel that these horses are the real 'war horses'.
You can gallop really fast, turn back immediately, zick zack, and accelerate again as you wish. All movements you need on a battlefield for sword and bow.
Besides because of their conformation they combine fastness with endurance. They dont get easily tired like their overbuilt race cousins.
Another point, maybe the percentage of the Turkish blood in the Thoroughbred is higher in Ireland as Turkish horses spent considerable time in Ireland.
Last: One article which I found very interesting in many aspects: http://www.lrgaf.org/articles/foundation-turks.htm
all the best
Gokmen Altinkulp
may I slightly disagree?
I rode many different breeds, but before I rode mostly Arabian horses in Turkey. More than one and a half years ago I moved to Ireland and started a sport called 'Polocrosse', it is similar to polo, just a bit rougher.
Here a video to give everybody an idea: http://youtu.be/vnhehVNlsFY
And attached a picture of me on my first tournment.
The horses and the horsemanship here is so exceptional. Before I was an Arab fan but now I see, for 'battle horses' there is not better horses than these thoroughbreds.
They dont use the tall too muscly, overtrained race horses though. They use 15-16hh horses. They are very athletic, clear in their mind and not afraid of anything. A full blow in the face or any other part with the racket happens sometimes and the horses are really coldblooded. After the crazy Arabians of Turkey I feel that these horses are the real 'war horses'.
You can gallop really fast, turn back immediately, zick zack, and accelerate again as you wish. All movements you need on a battlefield for sword and bow.
Besides because of their conformation they combine fastness with endurance. They dont get easily tired like their overbuilt race cousins.
Another point, maybe the percentage of the Turkish blood in the Thoroughbred is higher in Ireland as Turkish horses spent considerable time in Ireland.
Last: One article which I found very interesting in many aspects: http://www.lrgaf.org/articles/foundation-turks.htm
all the best
Gokmen Altinkulp
Yes & loud speakers too :!:Stephen Selby wrote:
With thoroghbreds, they can be ok in ideal conditions; but once you get photographers or a crowd making a noise, they can behave badly.
Polocrosse is fun, i dont think its rough, but a very nice sport, i hope you get to try the field Polo too someday, its a very good sport.i think you will like Kurdish horses alot (the same warhorse you see in Sassanid reliefs), fantastic horses!
sources mention Polo family sports derive from cavalry practices of ancient Persian army, these sports are always a good test of horsemanship specially the field Polo.