Scythian bow
I started a new bow this week. Because my last one had such extreme asymmetry, I decided to make this one less so; more in the tradition of the Silk Road Museum one. My recent problem has been correctly estimating the draw strength of a bow and making them so that I cannot comfortably shoot them every week. There is little that one can do to lower the draw weight of a finished bow because the core is encased by horn and sinew and the wood is the stiffest part of the bow.
The thing that so thrills me about my NA sheephorn bow, just horn and sinew, is its ability to be so overdrawn. Mine also suffered a fantastic mishap by the string coming off at full draw without having any damage. And because the horn and sinew are always available for tillering, you are not done till you think you are done. is this sounding crazy?
So I am marrying the two techniques to see what happens. All of my pieces of extra "side wall" ibex horn are being processed into the traditional "standing" joinery seen in Stephen's Yanghai construction but without any wood. All the standing slats will be ibex horn.
The horn slats have been cut down to 1/2 inch height except in the grip and are shaped with gas flame stove to the shape of the finished bow, random grooved with a metal saw blade, glued, and stacked on top of each other also using standing lap joints seen in the originals.
I do not pretend that this represents an original, though it might. A special press was made to compress the layers flat to the pattern, which was covered in clear plastic sheeting to repel glue. Also, a single layer of inner tube strips joins the horn pieces in the glue up. This allows to check for squeeze out and the application of extra heat to that end.
So, strange as this process is, my hopes are high.
The thing that so thrills me about my NA sheephorn bow, just horn and sinew, is its ability to be so overdrawn. Mine also suffered a fantastic mishap by the string coming off at full draw without having any damage. And because the horn and sinew are always available for tillering, you are not done till you think you are done. is this sounding crazy?
So I am marrying the two techniques to see what happens. All of my pieces of extra "side wall" ibex horn are being processed into the traditional "standing" joinery seen in Stephen's Yanghai construction but without any wood. All the standing slats will be ibex horn.
The horn slats have been cut down to 1/2 inch height except in the grip and are shaped with gas flame stove to the shape of the finished bow, random grooved with a metal saw blade, glued, and stacked on top of each other also using standing lap joints seen in the originals.
I do not pretend that this represents an original, though it might. A special press was made to compress the layers flat to the pattern, which was covered in clear plastic sheeting to repel glue. Also, a single layer of inner tube strips joins the horn pieces in the glue up. This allows to check for squeeze out and the application of extra heat to that end.
So, strange as this process is, my hopes are high.
Am not sure anyone needs one of these but it is helpful for standing lam construction. It is a strong bed with strong beam suspended over it with spring clamps for tension. The inner tube strips are also used, one layer only for accurate spacing underneath.
Jack, thanks for posting, I'm eager to see how this project develops..
Nice! This will be very interesting to follow 8) Your clamping device is really cool, hehe. Did you grab the idea from somewhere, or is it a personal invention? Very artistic.
If there is time for it this coming winter, I hope to "have a go" at the same type of bow too. It's such an intriguing and fluid design. - and I didn't realize the brilliant feature of the standing core untill now. As long as the horizontal pieces of horn are not attached, it should be possible to tiller the bow in the same way as a wooden bow.
If there is time for it this coming winter, I hope to "have a go" at the same type of bow too. It's such an intriguing and fluid design. - and I didn't realize the brilliant feature of the standing core untill now. As long as the horizontal pieces of horn are not attached, it should be possible to tiller the bow in the same way as a wooden bow.
Hello Jack.
I am glad to see your new project. 'll watch your work because I'm working on a similar project, and I have many unanswered questions. by the way - do you have problems with slippage of lamellae in gluing processes?
PAZUZU
I am glad to see your new project. 'll watch your work because I'm working on a similar project, and I have many unanswered questions. by the way - do you have problems with slippage of lamellae in gluing processes?
PAZUZU
Pazuzu; Slippage is a grand problem. I mark with ink the exact location; make one turn with the inner tube, align and proceed. The tube keeps the edges pretty well aligned. Some small pressure with clothes pin clamps can help.
Ivar, this is my design. Did anyone do something like this before? But the spring clamps are useful for construction, ie. shoring up a ceiling. This is a miniature adaption.
Ivar, this is my design. Did anyone do something like this before? But the spring clamps are useful for construction, ie. shoring up a ceiling. This is a miniature adaption.
Jack it is very unusual, smart & original way to build the Scythian bow!
I wish you goodluck!
What does it means extra "side wall"? What kind of Ibex horn do you use here? Siberian or maybe North American species or others?
I wish you goodluck!
What does it means extra "side wall"? What kind of Ibex horn do you use here? Siberian or maybe North American species or others?
Vonegelut; These are Nubian Ibex and Agrimi (I will have to look that up). I only wish I had Siberian Ibex. There are some here but they have not been available to me yet.
There is the outside curve of the horn which we all want and the inside curve which can also be used and if you cut those off a horn what is left over is the side of the wall of the horn, sidewall.
There is the outside curve of the horn which we all want and the inside curve which can also be used and if you cut those off a horn what is left over is the side of the wall of the horn, sidewall.
[quote="jack farrell"]Vonegelut; These are Nubian Ibex and Agrimi (I will have to look that up). I only wish I had Siberian Ibex. There are some here but they have not been available to me yet.
There is the outside curve of the horn which we all want and the inside curve which can also be used and if you cut those off a horn what is left over is the side of the wall of the horn, sidewall.
Ok, understood :) I read about the Nubian, their horns looks more curved. And Agrimi habits Crete island.
There is the outside curve of the horn which we all want and the inside curve which can also be used and if you cut those off a horn what is left over is the side of the wall of the horn, sidewall.
Ok, understood :) I read about the Nubian, their horns looks more curved. And Agrimi habits Crete island.
This is the raw material for the bow core. It turned out to be half enough for the core.
This is the bending jig. Horn strips were prepared with smooth faces and edges. Several inches at a time were heated over a low flame to allow the heat to soak in. Sidewall of Ibex is thin, between 1/8 to a max of less than 1/4 inch thick. About one minute is needed to sufficiently bend the horn. Some strips were bent by hand and quenched with water. Others were allowed to cool in the bending jig.
jack farrell wrote:
This is the bending jig. Horn strips were prepared with smooth faces and edges. Several inches at a time were heated over a low flame to allow the heat to soak in. Sidewall of Ibex is thin, between 1/8 to a max of less than 1/4 inch thick. About one minute is needed to sufficiently bend the horn. Some strips were bent by hand and quenched with water. Others were allowed to cool in the bending jig.
Wow! Such a good loking side strips of Ibex horn :)
I like this jigs! And how long this strips will stay on forms?
It takes only one or two minutes to heat a strip and about 5 or 10 minutes to cool. It is surprising just how little spring back there is. You can use a fan or water to speed up the cooling.
But let us wait to see if this technique is successful.
But let us wait to see if this technique is successful.
These 5 pre bent pieces make up the center most layer. The thick narrow ends will form the nock pegs in the final bow. All together the bow comprises a 5 piece layer, two four piece layers, a 3, and a two of very long pieces plus three riser pieces which are thick. The layers are arranged so that the splices do not occur near each other. These splices are about 2 inches in length. One layer was completed, smoothed flat, textured, and another added.
So to make this bow, 20 individual, separate horn glue-ups were necessary.
One surprise is that several extra long pieces of Nubian Ibex horn have white upper sections. This I have not seen before.
So to make this bow, 20 individual, separate horn glue-ups were necessary.
One surprise is that several extra long pieces of Nubian Ibex horn have white upper sections. This I have not seen before.
WOW! Absolutely cool. All horn Scythian bow.
Yes it is going to be slower that the traditional and even more slow than horn bellied wood bow, but that is not the point. Much more cool, and probably more durable (or is it?).
Yes it is going to be slower that the traditional and even more slow than horn bellied wood bow, but that is not the point. Much more cool, and probably more durable (or is it?).
good idea of bend horn, before you glue all the stuff, maybe when use strings wrap it , it almost a glued scythian bow performance,thank you test it and share it:D , if i am you , i will add a way of joint horn, or cut horn like \ on work lamb
The horn strips went together well enough; 21 pieces in all. There is the center most layer shown on page with glue on the splices. this is a 5 piece layer. Two, 4 piece layers, a 3 piece, a two piece and three riser pieces make up the bow. Like other Scythian bows, the width was used for taper more than the thickness.
Sinew was applied but since the horn does not absorb much of the glue from the sinew, the sinew raised up off the concave sections as it dried. That sinew was removed and small areas of thin sinew were put in place. So the sinew is in many layers rather than just several. I also sinewed onto the sides for protection. Sinew added later dried as usual.
Sinewing is several weeks old and I will wait till New Years to check the tiller. When all is settled in, the entire bow will be wrapped in spiral sinew.
Sinew was applied but since the horn does not absorb much of the glue from the sinew, the sinew raised up off the concave sections as it dried. That sinew was removed and small areas of thin sinew were put in place. So the sinew is in many layers rather than just several. I also sinewed onto the sides for protection. Sinew added later dried as usual.
Sinewing is several weeks old and I will wait till New Years to check the tiller. When all is settled in, the entire bow will be wrapped in spiral sinew.
jack
i'm glad to see great progress in your project. I look forward to new year.
i'm glad to see great progress in your project. I look forward to new year.
:D me too !
Getting near that time. New deer rawhide string and two new arrows with repro bronze points.
Thank you , Jack ! This pic is better than Marry Cristmass postcard .I wish you good health, young mind , and happy new year !
For all Atarns too ! :wink:
For all Atarns too ! :wink:
Jack, that bow is beautiful, can't wait to see it strung. Good luck.
great !
& merry x-mas days !
& merry x-mas days !
An update. Have been shooting the bow for about a week. Mostly I scraped the belly to bring down the weight and even the bend. I discovered that a fine crackle had appeared on the smaller limb but not so much on the upper so most of the tillering took place there. But it still stacked up so some material was taken off just above the grip and also at the tips. Now the crackle has appeared evenly and the draw weight is where I can handle it at or near #45 at 27".
Sorry to all the he-men out there, cannot handle decent draw weight.
Upon scraping the belly several natural vertical cracks could be seen but these appear to have been filled with glue and are not moving.
When shooting, the weight is borne on the heel of the left hand with the fingers only guiding the bow and a slight twist to the right is helpful while the string hits the arm guard hard.
What do you think of the bend? Do you want tests or is it worth it for such a low draw weight bow? The string is 44" to outside the loops; 7/8 by 9/16" mid upper limb above the bend.
My question is when I add the spiral wrapping skin, how much increase in draw weight should I expect?
Sorry to all the he-men out there, cannot handle decent draw weight.
Upon scraping the belly several natural vertical cracks could be seen but these appear to have been filled with glue and are not moving.
When shooting, the weight is borne on the heel of the left hand with the fingers only guiding the bow and a slight twist to the right is helpful while the string hits the arm guard hard.
What do you think of the bend? Do you want tests or is it worth it for such a low draw weight bow? The string is 44" to outside the loops; 7/8 by 9/16" mid upper limb above the bend.
My question is when I add the spiral wrapping skin, how much increase in draw weight should I expect?
Thats a beautifull sight :shock: . Very nice work!
Huaaa!!!! Piece of art. Maybe I can some day also...
Jack, that`s something.
Like I use to say in art. If it`s symmetry, it`s like alien or robot.
But if it`s unsymmetry, it`s beatiful, it`s art.
Jack, that`s something.
Like I use to say in art. If it`s symmetry, it`s like alien or robot.
But if it`s unsymmetry, it`s beatiful, it`s art.
Jack- please post the test results - it is always interesting and I am sure there were lighter weight bows made as well. Perhaps for hunting or practice.
I would not expect any gains in draw weight from the wrapping, since the tension and compression is taken up by the glue alone, which will crack soon enough anyway.
Adam
I would not expect any gains in draw weight from the wrapping, since the tension and compression is taken up by the glue alone, which will crack soon enough anyway.
Adam
So graceful shape !! Very cool experience Jack!
Hi Jack,
congratulations! Wonderful!
Peter
congratulations! Wonderful!
Peter
That's a good looking bow, Jack. Its curves look very historical.
Thanks for all the good wishes. I will finish wrapping the bow and them make a fd graph and chrono some shots.
There was an interesting event several days ago. I had strung the bow for further drawing exercises and the upper limb threw off the string with a loud snapping sound. Three or four lams had split apart for about 6-8" on the belly but none had come loose from the back! So a lot of thin glue was worked into the cracks while massaging the limb back and forth until the glue came out of many places at once.
I then cleaned up the bow and wound the entire area with inner tube strips and slowly heated over a low fire which created a good squeeze out. By the way, the sinew layer was not even colored by the incident. I weighted down the affected area for alignment and the next day had to carve off most of the rubber.
Then the skin layer of sinew was added yesterday and I will wait a week or two before testing. I must say that this kind of thing is beginning to be less alarming; an event which would have seemed catastrophic just several years ago. So I beg a little more patience.
If I am not being too long winded let me relate something else. It has taken some time because I did a no no and wanted to see if it worked. I had run low on horn on the older, heavier Scythian bow and made a long V splice on the belly of one of the upper limb areas of that bow. I figured that if a butt joint has some possibility of success, then a butting V splice should be even better. The point points toward the grip. It has held well for about a year and a half at this point but it is wrapped entirely under the sinew skin. There are also several heat bending failures glued and encased in that bow. (Bless me father for I have sinned.... )
There was an interesting event several days ago. I had strung the bow for further drawing exercises and the upper limb threw off the string with a loud snapping sound. Three or four lams had split apart for about 6-8" on the belly but none had come loose from the back! So a lot of thin glue was worked into the cracks while massaging the limb back and forth until the glue came out of many places at once.
I then cleaned up the bow and wound the entire area with inner tube strips and slowly heated over a low fire which created a good squeeze out. By the way, the sinew layer was not even colored by the incident. I weighted down the affected area for alignment and the next day had to carve off most of the rubber.
Then the skin layer of sinew was added yesterday and I will wait a week or two before testing. I must say that this kind of thing is beginning to be less alarming; an event which would have seemed catastrophic just several years ago. So I beg a little more patience.
If I am not being too long winded let me relate something else. It has taken some time because I did a no no and wanted to see if it worked. I had run low on horn on the older, heavier Scythian bow and made a long V splice on the belly of one of the upper limb areas of that bow. I figured that if a butt joint has some possibility of success, then a butting V splice should be even better. The point points toward the grip. It has held well for about a year and a half at this point but it is wrapped entirely under the sinew skin. There are also several heat bending failures glued and encased in that bow. (Bless me father for I have sinned.... )
Jack,
Do you still have the pic of your other Scythian being drawn? It would be nice to see a comparison between the two, as this one seems to be working differently in the upper limb (from memory)
Both bows are stunning IMO ... best curves on Atarn :shock:
Do you still have the pic of your other Scythian being drawn? It would be nice to see a comparison between the two, as this one seems to be working differently in the upper limb (from memory)
Both bows are stunning IMO ... best curves on Atarn :shock:
I think you are correct. The upper limb is not bending as much in this bow. I struggle to fully draw (depending on how my shoulder feels).
thank you for posting Jack, great work !
regarding the "repairs" or "assembly" of a bow, IMHO this is not a no-go but the inherent advantage of the composite design; if done properly in the end it's robust and working. your work is a proof.
regarding the "repairs" or "assembly" of a bow, IMHO this is not a no-go but the inherent advantage of the composite design; if done properly in the end it's robust and working. your work is a proof.
Both stunning bows! One can appreciate the full sinew wrapping for such a design :) I think I like the shape of your first one better, but I wonder if the shape of your second would be more stable?
By the way, is that pseudosasa japonica in the background? 8)
By the way, is that pseudosasa japonica in the background? 8)
Uli; There is nothing like a view of an original. One of the Yanghai bows has a wood splint shoring up a horn belly and in the Miran bows it can be plainly seen that lateral sinew has been added over two diagonal layers. So the inspiration also comes from antiquity.
Ivar; this is Bambusa multiplex, Weavers bamboo. Much larger than P. ja.
Ivar; this is Bambusa multiplex, Weavers bamboo. Much larger than P. ja.
Thanks for posting your first again Jack. I love that bow!
Very intresting bow. I admire your patience and craftsman talent.
Now i see that I have been working on this bow for a year and a half. Today, I shot the repaired version a hundred times at different distances and all seems well. The de-lamination of the horn core on the upper recurve necessitated the following repair; The spiral wrapping was removed in the repair area. The area was heated and thin glue worked into the cracks. the sinew was not damaged. The recurve was worked back and forth and the glue oozed in and out of the cracks. This was wrapped in tube strips and dried. The edges were flattened and two more horn strips were added to the edges, bound and dried. The belly was scraped to approximate correct tiller.
Very tiny holes were drilled in the width of the affected area and music wire was hammered into these holes, in 6 or 7 places. The entirety was spiral wrapped in both directions. The lower limb had lateral sinew added over the diagonal spiral sinew for tiller. It was left to fry for about 6 weeks.
Unfortunately the bow now draws less than before but it is shooting.
One must remember with Scythian bows that the reflex areas must be flatter, wider, than the deflex areas, for stability.
Very tiny holes were drilled in the width of the affected area and music wire was hammered into these holes, in 6 or 7 places. The entirety was spiral wrapped in both directions. The lower limb had lateral sinew added over the diagonal spiral sinew for tiller. It was left to fry for about 6 weeks.
Unfortunately the bow now draws less than before but it is shooting.
One must remember with Scythian bows that the reflex areas must be flatter, wider, than the deflex areas, for stability.
is that a scythian sunglass Jack :-D
very interesting bow & thanks for posting
very interesting bow & thanks for posting
It is good you could repair it. Would not have been it better to tiller the lower limb to a similar shape as the upper? To remove some strain from the most bending section.
Paku; The bends are built into the bow, just like the originals. The bends are not so stressed as one would think. The unstrung bow does not have a great reflex. The stress seems very even as the sinew has changed to an even pale color.
Uli; These are not authentic Scythian sun glasses. There was a pair in the Silk Road exhibit, in the catalog.
Uli; These are not authentic Scythian sun glasses. There was a pair in the Silk Road exhibit, in the catalog.
I know that the bends are built in, but the original curvature of the upper limb is different from the repaired (the curvature is bigger). Now it is strange that the lower limb bends so sharply.
Paku; I think you are comparing my all horn version with the picture I posted of my earlier Subeixi reproduction with the bamboo in the background.
Here is a pic of my prototype which was displayed in the Silk Road Museum in Seoul. It must have been put in the grave strung and is frozen in the strung position. So I reflexed the design for my current all horn version.
The current version may still get some more sinew to the upper limb.
Here is a pic of my prototype which was displayed in the Silk Road Museum in Seoul. It must have been put in the grave strung and is frozen in the strung position. So I reflexed the design for my current all horn version.
The current version may still get some more sinew to the upper limb.