dimensions crimean tatar bow
Hi everybody
I am planning to build a crimean tatar bow, but am searching for dimensions.
I found a nice bow in the Grayson collection, p 67.
This bow is 148 cm long, 3.3 cm wide and 1.7 cm thick at midlimb.
I calculated the following dimensions from the picture:
grip 14 cm
limb 34.5 cm
kasan 18,5 cm
tip 14 cm (till nock 10.5 cm)
grip angle 150'
kasan angle 35-40'
tip angle 45- 50'
Are these dimensions about right? Does anybody have information about thickness compared to strength, while 17 mm at midlimb sounds quite a strong bow. What would one need for a bow of 70-80 lb.?
Thank you
I am planning to build a crimean tatar bow, but am searching for dimensions.
I found a nice bow in the Grayson collection, p 67.
This bow is 148 cm long, 3.3 cm wide and 1.7 cm thick at midlimb.
I calculated the following dimensions from the picture:
grip 14 cm
limb 34.5 cm
kasan 18,5 cm
tip 14 cm (till nock 10.5 cm)
grip angle 150'
kasan angle 35-40'
tip angle 45- 50'
Are these dimensions about right? Does anybody have information about thickness compared to strength, while 17 mm at midlimb sounds quite a strong bow. What would one need for a bow of 70-80 lb.?
Thank you
helpful comments and photos have been posted here:
http://atarn.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t ... sc&start=0
one of my favorites still is this one.
dimensions as given by Zoran Pavlovic:
142cm nock to nock
Grip:33mm thick, 27mm wide
Sal(bending sect.): 15.5mm thick, 33mm wide
Sal/Kasan:18 mm thick,32 wide
Kasan:21 thick,30mm wide
Kasan/tip: 19mm thick, 22.5 wide
Tip: 9.5 cm long 13mm wide
The length varies from about 49 to 56 inches between nocks. The ridged part of kasans is not longer than in Turkish bows, but the bows have the recurved section a little thicker (proportionally) towards the sals. Again, ths varies from bow to bow. The kasans are about 17-20mm thick in the middle, and the tips are about 20mm thick and 12-15mm wide with the horn insert. The sal is the thinnest about the middle (not so close to kasan as in Turkish bows) and the width is around 35mm, the thickness on the average about 14-17mm. But as you know the side ridges at sal add about 2mm to the thicknness, so the middle is thinner than that. The grips have dimensions about the same as a bigger Turkish bow - something like 35mm thick x 25+mm wide.
you find a wealth of tatar bows in the Skokloster museum here:
(a link once given by Redhorse)
http://emuseumplus.lsh.se/eMuseumPlus
Write the word pilb?ge (copy and paste) and it will show weapons.
Try pil, turkiet, pilkoger also.
also some nice pictures in this document:
http://atarn.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2141
:D good luck !!
http://atarn.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t ... sc&start=0
one of my favorites still is this one.
dimensions as given by Zoran Pavlovic:
142cm nock to nock
Grip:33mm thick, 27mm wide
Sal(bending sect.): 15.5mm thick, 33mm wide
Sal/Kasan:18 mm thick,32 wide
Kasan:21 thick,30mm wide
Kasan/tip: 19mm thick, 22.5 wide
Tip: 9.5 cm long 13mm wide
The length varies from about 49 to 56 inches between nocks. The ridged part of kasans is not longer than in Turkish bows, but the bows have the recurved section a little thicker (proportionally) towards the sals. Again, ths varies from bow to bow. The kasans are about 17-20mm thick in the middle, and the tips are about 20mm thick and 12-15mm wide with the horn insert. The sal is the thinnest about the middle (not so close to kasan as in Turkish bows) and the width is around 35mm, the thickness on the average about 14-17mm. But as you know the side ridges at sal add about 2mm to the thicknness, so the middle is thinner than that. The grips have dimensions about the same as a bigger Turkish bow - something like 35mm thick x 25+mm wide.
you find a wealth of tatar bows in the Skokloster museum here:
(a link once given by Redhorse)
http://emuseumplus.lsh.se/eMuseumPlus
Write the word pilb?ge (copy and paste) and it will show weapons.
Try pil, turkiet, pilkoger also.
also some nice pictures in this document:
http://atarn.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2141
:D good luck !!
@Uli
unfortunatly the pics of your bow have disapeared. Can you please post them again :)?
regards Kevin
unfortunatly the pics of your bow have disapeared. Can you please post them again :)?
regards Kevin
yep because storage amount is limited ;-)
the bow ended up about 60 lbs and can be drawn to 32 inch.
it's really not easy to stabilize a bow with such strong reflex in siyahs.
next time I want to keep the bending section closer to grip to get a stronger bow (see the issue with the Zargalant bow) and more brace height.
also my bow has a biconvex cross-section, while the originals have semi-convex cross-section with lateral sinew ridges..
:wink:
the bow ended up about 60 lbs and can be drawn to 32 inch.
it's really not easy to stabilize a bow with such strong reflex in siyahs.
next time I want to keep the bending section closer to grip to get a stronger bow (see the issue with the Zargalant bow) and more brace height.
also my bow has a biconvex cross-section, while the originals have semi-convex cross-section with lateral sinew ridges..
:wink:
Thank you Uli for the information
I am working on the core today, I will post my progress!
I am working on the core today, I will post my progress!
Great! Thank you :)!
regards Kevin
regards Kevin
Nice looking bow Uli!
It might just be the orientation of the bow in the top photograph, but to me it looks like there might be a small hinge in the middle of the uppermost as we see it) bending section.
It might just be the orientation of the bow in the top photograph, but to me it looks like there might be a small hinge in the middle of the uppermost as we see it) bending section.
:D hehe eagle-eye !
this is right and it did worry me pretty much, so I put an extra layer of sinew over this part. so far however on drawing the "hinge" behaves smoothly (does not aggravate), on the contrary this was even the stronger limb.
PS: in the photo the impression of "hinge" is a bit exagerated because there horn lateral side is a bit flattened here.
this is right and it did worry me pretty much, so I put an extra layer of sinew over this part. so far however on drawing the "hinge" behaves smoothly (does not aggravate), on the contrary this was even the stronger limb.
PS: in the photo the impression of "hinge" is a bit exagerated because there horn lateral side is a bit flattened here.
Hi
This is the core till now. I used ash for limbs and a piece of maple for grip.
The tips are spliced in and made from maple and oak laminates (it's not traditional, but it works perfect to get a fast bend) The grip is not spliced but glued on.
The length I am aiming for is about 58".
Any comments welcome, please
This is the core till now. I used ash for limbs and a piece of maple for grip.
The tips are spliced in and made from maple and oak laminates (it's not traditional, but it works perfect to get a fast bend) The grip is not spliced but glued on.
The length I am aiming for is about 58".
Any comments welcome, please
very nice. I already recognize the red tatar from the Grayson Collection.
IMHO the grip in crimean tatar bows was V-spliced.
your siyah V-splice does not reach the prospective kasan eye.
you can make up for that by forming a triangular cross section anyways.
;-)
IMHO the grip in crimean tatar bows was V-spliced.
your siyah V-splice does not reach the prospective kasan eye.
you can make up for that by forming a triangular cross section anyways.
;-)
Uli,
You made again a very good looking bow, congratulation! Thanks for sharing the info! :!:
Would you also post some pics on your unbraced and drawned tatar bow!
You made again a very good looking bow, congratulation! Thanks for sharing the info! :!:
Would you also post some pics on your unbraced and drawned tatar bow!
Uli,
didn't know that the v-splice went all the way to the kasan eye, that's a long way! The splice is 10 cm, should be sufficient anyways.
Normally I would splice the grip, but I am working on a Magyar bow as well, taking P?ter Bencsik's bows as an example, and he glues the grip on like this too. Because I was aiming for the same grip angle, I did it the same way :?
Are the dimensions from Zoran Pavlovic meant for a bow of about 60 lb.?
How thick is your sinew layer?
didn't know that the v-splice went all the way to the kasan eye, that's a long way! The splice is 10 cm, should be sufficient anyways.
Normally I would splice the grip, but I am working on a Magyar bow as well, taking P?ter Bencsik's bows as an example, and he glues the grip on like this too. Because I was aiming for the same grip angle, I did it the same way :?
Are the dimensions from Zoran Pavlovic meant for a bow of about 60 lb.?
How thick is your sinew layer?
Thank you ! pictures follow..
Alex: Zoran's dimensions are for the original.
it will make a 80lbs bow or more I guess if you pay attention to
- bending closer to grip
- enough time to cure (my bow only 2 months before first brace)
- reflex during manufacture (my bow tips did not "kiss")
( for security I have omitted these points :oops: )
sinew at mid-limb is about 3mm (+ 5mm horn + 5mm wood + 1mm reindeer leather and laquer )
Alex: Zoran's dimensions are for the original.
it will make a 80lbs bow or more I guess if you pay attention to
- bending closer to grip
- enough time to cure (my bow only 2 months before first brace)
- reflex during manufacture (my bow tips did not "kiss")
( for security I have omitted these points :oops: )
sinew at mid-limb is about 3mm (+ 5mm horn + 5mm wood + 1mm reindeer leather and laquer )
pics
drawn
Wow, it looks great, thanks! :!:Uli wrote:
pictures follow..
I glued the horn strips almost 2 weeks ago, and am shaping the core.
Projected dimensions for core+horn now are as followed:
Grip: 18-20 cm long, 28mm thick, 24mm wide
Sal: 30-31 cm long, 9-10 mm thick, 34mm wide
(thinnest part little less than 9mm)
Sal/Kasan: about 9mm thick, 33mm wide
Kasan: 20 cm long, 9-17 mm thick, 33-24 mm wide
Kasan/Tip: 17mm thick, 24mm wide
Tip: 12-14 cm long, 19mm thick, 13 mm wide
What keeps me from going on is where I should make the thinnest part on the sal. I made a sketch where I think I want to make the thinnest part, it's about 10 cm from where the grip fades. That puts it at 1/3 of the sal.
Should the thickness increase from thereon towards the kasan eye? Zoran Pavlovic's dimensions tell me yes (thickness at sal/kasan is 2.5 mm more than at sal bendingsection), but it feels contradictionary. It would make the kasan quite stiff or not?
Anyways, In about 2 weeks I will start with the sinew part. Plan is to add 80-100 gram of sinew on the bow, will probably be about 3mm more thickness(without the ridge). Hope to finish somewhere at 70-80 lb.
Projected dimensions for core+horn now are as followed:
Grip: 18-20 cm long, 28mm thick, 24mm wide
Sal: 30-31 cm long, 9-10 mm thick, 34mm wide
(thinnest part little less than 9mm)
Sal/Kasan: about 9mm thick, 33mm wide
Kasan: 20 cm long, 9-17 mm thick, 33-24 mm wide
Kasan/Tip: 17mm thick, 24mm wide
Tip: 12-14 cm long, 19mm thick, 13 mm wide
What keeps me from going on is where I should make the thinnest part on the sal. I made a sketch where I think I want to make the thinnest part, it's about 10 cm from where the grip fades. That puts it at 1/3 of the sal.
Should the thickness increase from thereon towards the kasan eye? Zoran Pavlovic's dimensions tell me yes (thickness at sal/kasan is 2.5 mm more than at sal bendingsection), but it feels contradictionary. It would make the kasan quite stiff or not?
Anyways, In about 2 weeks I will start with the sinew part. Plan is to add 80-100 gram of sinew on the bow, will probably be about 3mm more thickness(without the ridge). Hope to finish somewhere at 70-80 lb.
I suggest to pre-tiller the core only once the horn is glued on.
That will avoid loosing horn later on.
Taper the core tickness from grip to the kasan eye as the thinnest point.
see picture (although this is quite an unusual bow it gives you an idea)
That will avoid loosing horn later on.
Taper the core tickness from grip to the kasan eye as the thinnest point.
see picture (although this is quite an unusual bow it gives you an idea)
When you make the sal bend so close to the grip, the bow will be overstressed. I suggest to move the thinnest point about 2/3 of the way towards the kasan eye. In Tatar bows I examined, the thinnest spot was about there - not at the kasan eye as in the Turkish bows (an per Uli's advice). These bows are longer than Turkish and do not need the bending section maximized as much.
I would be very cautious about bending the bow without sinew, since the wood grain is cut through on the back in the core over most of the length.
Adam
I would be very cautious about bending the bow without sinew, since the wood grain is cut through on the back in the core over most of the length.
Adam
.. trust the master :wink:
Thank you for the advice!
As I am more a visual person I added another sketch.
The green zone would than be the thinnest part on the bow as you suggest Adam? How large is would it be, about 5 cm?
I added my suggested thickness of the core+horn. Please feel free to correct!
Uli: I am always a little bit cautious pre-tillering the the core+horn. Although this bow has edge-ringed heat-treated ash, it should work.
I'll think of it, maybe give it a try. The horn should be glued on correctly, but you never know.
Adam: It seems unlogical to me that the thinnest part is so far away from the kasan eye, as in turkish bows. Does the kasan straighten out in these bows like in turkish bows? The idea of the thinnest part is to help this straightening out, isn't it?
As I am more a visual person I added another sketch.
The green zone would than be the thinnest part on the bow as you suggest Adam? How large is would it be, about 5 cm?
I added my suggested thickness of the core+horn. Please feel free to correct!
Uli: I am always a little bit cautious pre-tillering the the core+horn. Although this bow has edge-ringed heat-treated ash, it should work.
I'll think of it, maybe give it a try. The horn should be glued on correctly, but you never know.
Adam: It seems unlogical to me that the thinnest part is so far away from the kasan eye, as in turkish bows. Does the kasan straighten out in these bows like in turkish bows? The idea of the thinnest part is to help this straightening out, isn't it?
Uli
Is this a museum bow, or one of your own bows?
Is this a museum bow, or one of your own bows?
Yes, the taper seems OK as drawn, although I am not quite sure if the 12mm at the fadeout is enough for the thickness (that depends how you define the fadeout).
"Does the kasan straighten out in these bows like in turkish bows? "
No, since the limb bends less above the thinnest part, these bows flex less in the kasan eye and do not straighten out as the Turkish. I say this, because the bows I have seen so far had this particular taper, but I am sure there were exceptions.
"The idea of the thinnest part is to help this straightening out, isn't it? "
The limbs bend, thanks to the correct taper, up to and including the thinnest part. Beyond that, the limbs bend much less or not at all.
Adam
"Does the kasan straighten out in these bows like in turkish bows? "
No, since the limb bends less above the thinnest part, these bows flex less in the kasan eye and do not straighten out as the Turkish. I say this, because the bows I have seen so far had this particular taper, but I am sure there were exceptions.
"The idea of the thinnest part is to help this straightening out, isn't it? "
The limbs bend, thanks to the correct taper, up to and including the thinnest part. Beyond that, the limbs bend much less or not at all.
Adam
Adam thank you for the information!
The 12 mm would be where the grip ends, but it's an estimate, I have to see while shaping.
Could I interpret it like this?
The crim bow is longer and will not have the extreme bending forces in the sal area as turkish bows have, and therefore the kasan straigthens out less.
The 12 mm would be where the grip ends, but it's an estimate, I have to see while shaping.
Could I interpret it like this?
The crim bow is longer and will not have the extreme bending forces in the sal area as turkish bows have, and therefore the kasan straigthens out less.
Yes, but it also depends on the relative lengths of the sal and kasan. The kasan length of the bows I saw was rather short, so the sals were longer. On the other hand there were bows with longer kasans - look at the picture above of the old bow (not red). With a reasonable taper and thickness, the limbs, even if stressed more, will not break, only show more string follow. Then the excessive flex in sal can be reduced by forced (heat) straightening of other sections of limbs.
Adam
Adam
So, working on the core is done, ready for sinew! Hope to start sinewing end of this week.
Thinnest spot is on 2/3 sal, about 8.5 mm
The tips look huge, but will work them down later, also planning a splice in the tips.
The other bow is the magyar bow I was working on, thank you P?ter Bensik for all the information you provide on these bows!
Thinnest spot is on 2/3 sal, about 8.5 mm
The tips look huge, but will work them down later, also planning a splice in the tips.
The other bow is the magyar bow I was working on, thank you P?ter Bensik for all the information you provide on these bows!
Those look very good from here! It's going to be interesting to see how they turn out bending with sinew!
Thanks, yes I am looking forward to bend and string them without to many problems, like horn delamination or twist corrections.
I tried to make a magyar some time ago with quite some reflex in the grip, and had a lot of problems bending it on a pegboard. The bow had developed so much twist as well, that I took it apart again. Still have the wood/horn parts of the limbs attached. Am going to try to make a small kind of plains indian bow out of it, have to decide how to join those parts together still.
But I hope these bows will go the way they should go!
I tried to make a magyar some time ago with quite some reflex in the grip, and had a lot of problems bending it on a pegboard. The bow had developed so much twist as well, that I took it apart again. Still have the wood/horn parts of the limbs attached. Am going to try to make a small kind of plains indian bow out of it, have to decide how to join those parts together still.
But I hope these bows will go the way they should go!
:shock: sure they will
Two bows ready for seasoning!