western Scythian? be afraid...
While cleaning the shop for an important visitor, I came across an old project I forgot about: a "western Scythian" bow I made some 12 years ago. It is not based on a real find, but on the all-wood little bows from the Ukrainian/Russian digs. This bow has a bamboo belly, hardwood(?) core and is heavily backed with sinew - prob. about 1/2 the thickness of the limbs. It is only 32 inches ntn and the limbs mid length are only 19.5mm wide x 11.5mm thick. And only 160 grams total mass. I had to fix one limb which delaminated from overdrawing. Please add the imaginary recurved nocks of your choice, typical of these bows.
The f-d curve looks horrible with all the stacking and energy storage is obviously poor. However, the stats are quite impressive:
draw weight: around 90lb at 20 inches draw (gains some 30lb in the last 2 inches of draw!), SE/PDF is less than 0.5, 310 grain arrow - 204fps, 474 grain arrow - 176fps. Humidity 35-40%RH, 14deg.
Despite the meager performance at such high draw weight, the bow's efficiency, thanks to the very low energy storage is quite impressive in the 70% +/-. So, if one can handle the stacking at the short draw, the bow will perform well enough.
The bow does not represent a real bow: it is a fantasy bow based on the existing finds. As far as I know, no horn has been found yet and the presence of sinew may be debated as well. Anyway, this bow is "underbuild", but if made with thicker limbs (more material to do work) and deliberately deflexed (this one had limbs straight when made), could be quite workable and certainly efficient.
Adam
The f-d curve looks horrible with all the stacking and energy storage is obviously poor. However, the stats are quite impressive:
draw weight: around 90lb at 20 inches draw (gains some 30lb in the last 2 inches of draw!), SE/PDF is less than 0.5, 310 grain arrow - 204fps, 474 grain arrow - 176fps. Humidity 35-40%RH, 14deg.
Despite the meager performance at such high draw weight, the bow's efficiency, thanks to the very low energy storage is quite impressive in the 70% +/-. So, if one can handle the stacking at the short draw, the bow will perform well enough.
The bow does not represent a real bow: it is a fantasy bow based on the existing finds. As far as I know, no horn has been found yet and the presence of sinew may be debated as well. Anyway, this bow is "underbuild", but if made with thicker limbs (more material to do work) and deliberately deflexed (this one had limbs straight when made), could be quite workable and certainly efficient.
Adam
and strung:
Even if not wholly authentic a bow like this seems to clearly demonstrate that the early Scythian bows were likely high weight short draw "flight" bows that could send a small arrow a long way with high potential for lethality owing to lightly armored targets and possibly poisoned or at least 'tainted" heads.
interesting data. thank you.
Adam, what awesome shape and design wheter of unstrung or strung bow. I am impressed by the grip. Since i am not familiar with construction of wooden burial scythians can you tell me how grip is built, are limbs spliced by vertical scarf joint and then riser added or some other construction? Thanx. But i cannot stop observing this bow.
Adam; I am convinced from numerous ancient illustrations that there were Scythian bows which looked like this.
Not so different than a Lakota bow, separated by a few thousand plus years.
Not so different than a Lakota bow, separated by a few thousand plus years.
Little beast! Love it ! Sure Jack reminds the Lakota style
I suppose a horse can be killed with this bow from a close distance of some 20-30m at the arrow energy of about 30+ftlb.
This bow is not a reproduction of a historical bow, but as far as I can recall there were two or three wood laminations all though the limbs with probably an extra piece in the grip and the cross-section was round. In this bow the belly is a bit flatter, but the back is round. I was mostly interested in the mechanics of the design.
Adam
This bow is not a reproduction of a historical bow, but as far as I can recall there were two or three wood laminations all though the limbs with probably an extra piece in the grip and the cross-section was round. In this bow the belly is a bit flatter, but the back is round. I was mostly interested in the mechanics of the design.
Adam
What kind of bamboo?
I'm intrigued and have some very dense pieces of Tonkin that would go nicely with this design. I think I'll go with some "hooks" in the end.
I like it. Looks like a nice bow to stick in a quiver with a handful of arrows.
I'm intrigued and have some very dense pieces of Tonkin that would go nicely with this design. I think I'll go with some "hooks" in the end.
I like it. Looks like a nice bow to stick in a quiver with a handful of arrows.
I do not remember what it was. I got it from a friend in Taiwan. Thin walled, about 3in diameter. I think he said this bamboo was used for Japanese bows. Worked quite well for Korean style bows and as a backing.
Adam
Adam
My idea is that horn tips like these were added to bows such as yours. This may be Rafael's pic. Sorry not to have noted.
Jack this picture from the thread that also contains your pic looks more realistic since it is an actual picture of a tip. It looks like wood.
http://img.janforman.com/Obrazek8m3l6.png
Interestingly an old popular mechanics article on making a flight bow shows a similar method of attaching a siyah/recurve to a more modern laminated bow. It is inserted into the lam stack with a long taper.
Frustrating that these grave finds seem to be in parts that have us speculating.
http://img.janforman.com/Obrazek8m3l6.png
Interestingly an old popular mechanics article on making a flight bow shows a similar method of attaching a siyah/recurve to a more modern laminated bow. It is inserted into the lam stack with a long taper.
Frustrating that these grave finds seem to be in parts that have us speculating.
Pat; What you say makes sense. However, my note says this item is from Siberia and in other bow remains there the wood degrades severely. The one(s) above are perfectly preserved.
In this illustration from "Ethnographica" (in Russian, printed in Kazakhstan), the caption reads, "Sakian Armaments. 1+2, Horny and bone ends of bow. Altai, 5-3 C BC. These two are also well preserved.
My linguist has cautioned me in the past that "Horny" also refers to antlers, as in deer horns. There is another term just for antler which is less used.
In this illustration from "Ethnographica" (in Russian, printed in Kazakhstan), the caption reads, "Sakian Armaments. 1+2, Horny and bone ends of bow. Altai, 5-3 C BC. These two are also well preserved.
My linguist has cautioned me in the past that "Horny" also refers to antlers, as in deer horns. There is another term just for antler which is less used.
Yes Jack, I would like to see these tips in the western Scythian bows (which would make them more robust and better bows), but so far all we know such tips were present in the eastern reach of the Scythians (Altai - Vengerovo). They were not found with the super short (60 - 90cm) all-wood laminates of the west, but fit very well with the Yanghai style bows. There were a few bone nock hooks found in the western kurgans, presumably belonging to the short bows.
A scale with the drawings would be useful. A Yanghai bow would not fit 2/3 of the way into a 50-60cm gorytoi...
Adam
A scale with the drawings would be useful. A Yanghai bow would not fit 2/3 of the way into a 50-60cm gorytoi...
Adam
Did Michael not show that the Olon Kurin Gol bow had those horn pieces on the belly of the recurve?.
Interesting how the tips of those pieces look very similar to a Hupa style bent tab nock.
Yet another example of parallel evolution of bow features.
Interesting how the tips of those pieces look very similar to a Hupa style bent tab nock.
Yet another example of parallel evolution of bow features.
What I see are three distinct construction methods. The Yanghai bows all seem to have a central standing lath of horn used as a nock post. The upper most pair appear to be spliced into a wooden construction lacking a standing horn core piece. The Altai pair appear to be overlaid onto the belly side of a wood construction.
In both latter cases, these pieces would be unnecessary if there had been a horn central core piece.
A useful item to make these horn hooks with would be the tips of an Ibex horn. This would further support your (Adam's) hypothesis that the Ibex lends inspiration to the bow type.
There was recently an indepth discussion on Trad. Asian Archery on FB showing another possible inspiration for the hook ends. A lituus is a hook shaped stick used to delineate a portion of the sky in preparation for divination. (Jurgen's discovery) These have been associated with Scythian type bows, and others. Just a side bar.
In both latter cases, these pieces would be unnecessary if there had been a horn central core piece.
A useful item to make these horn hooks with would be the tips of an Ibex horn. This would further support your (Adam's) hypothesis that the Ibex lends inspiration to the bow type.
There was recently an indepth discussion on Trad. Asian Archery on FB showing another possible inspiration for the hook ends. A lituus is a hook shaped stick used to delineate a portion of the sky in preparation for divination. (Jurgen's discovery) These have been associated with Scythian type bows, and others. Just a side bar.
To me the hooks on the tips are mainly there to prevent the string slipping off at full draw which is always a distinct possibility with short bows bent to the max.
I would not put too much importance in the methods of construction, as long as the basic shape and the lengths are close. Some of the Yanghai shape bows did not have the central (vertical) horn laths. The scarf joints and all kinds of splices could be used depending on the material at hand for bows which come from the same region. If a bowyes did not have good horn for the central lath, then adding the belly overlays with the hook is a logical step. Even for bows with the central laths, the belly horn at the tips would be helpful for durability.
I see the splices as details to be solved at the level of a village bowyer (with a possible exception of the vertical V-splice). The overal shape however is defined by the regional preferences and traditions.
Adam
I see the splices as details to be solved at the level of a village bowyer (with a possible exception of the vertical V-splice). The overal shape however is defined by the regional preferences and traditions.
Adam
Agreed. By hook I mean the entire recurve, lacking customary parts to identify as siyah, kasan etc. By nock post I identify the point of the string attachment, lacking a slot or etc.
I see the all wood limb version, with or without spliced in or overlaid hooks as especially useful for extreme cold weather applications.
Pic of Greek "Scythian type bow ?" without hooks.
I see the all wood limb version, with or without spliced in or overlaid hooks as especially useful for extreme cold weather applications.
Pic of Greek "Scythian type bow ?" without hooks.