My first composite bow attempt. (Magyar style)

Glad to see you start this thread. I am just about to start my own magyar bow. Perhaps we can all learn together. I agree Peter's website is a wealth of information.

Questions for you. What glue did you use for the splices, hideglue?
How many pounds of draw weight are you trying for?
How thick is the core and what wood for the core?

Do you have Adam's book? It has a lot of great information as well.

What horn are you using?

Sorry for all the question but I am eager to get started on mine too!

Todd

For sizing I use about 5% glue, or "like water". If you use more dilute glue, you simply have to put on more layers, untill the surfaces are glossy. Adam wrote in his book that one should not heat the parts when waiting for the sizing to dry, as the glue would become weaker. The heat for final glue-up should (I think) not be hotter than where it is still possible to hold the parts without pain. Over 50 degrees would put the glue lines of the core in danger.

For final glueing of the horns I've been using about 30% glue, which is 30 grams of dry glue and 70 grams of water.

By the way, I think maybe I would consider making the handle bend larger, so that it will not be as pointy. A straight grip with the limbs coming out at an angle at both sides of it seems to be more historically accurate? For my last bow of this type I used the same construction as you have, but simply planed the belly of the grip flat, and glued a piece of bone there.

Your build looks very promising though!

Another quick question, how wide are you making the working limb?

Todd

Todd, for the splices i used hide glue for sizing around 3 parts glue - 10 parts water, and for bonding a quite thick 7 parts glue - 3 parts water. (as on P?ters website)
I am only aiming for a relatively light poundage as it is my first bow and i dont think i should have any extra stress on all the joints than i need too, around 50 pound draw weight.
and the core is from a stripp of 5mm thick Bamboo backing from a traditional archery shop here in germany. But once ive got the horn on i will pre tiller the center of the bending sections just to ease the stress a bit more od the handle fades.

Oh and the width is 35mm.

And i unfortunately dont have adams book... I know that it is one of the first things i should have bought, but im not really in a position to be spending any more money on this project (student :P ) i figured that there is a ship load of info and tips here on this blog, and can ask any questions here! which is the best for me.
But i will definitely get round to buying it as soon as i can afford to give a bit more money out, ;) this will definitely not be the last composite bow i build!
:D

Kviljo: thanks for the gluing and heating tips!
About the handle, do you plain through the core at the middle of the handle to make it less pointy?
do you maybe have a picture to show what you mean?

Thanks

Jakob

I'd say you'd probably save a lot of effort and money on materials through getting the book. There's so much to learn, and it is all very well presented there.

Here's a picture of what I did. The bone plate needs sinew wrapping at both ends, like the Moshcheveya Balka bow has, although this is not the original construction method. There's probably better ways of making it, but it's simple and as long as the limbs does not bend close to the bone piece, it should work nicely.

Ok, thanks ill have a little look into that!



I have discovered, (I think :?: ) That one of the siyhas dried a little crooked?
Im going backwards and forwards thinking it is twisted, then coming to the comclusion that it isnt and its just my eyes looking for something wrong...

when i look at it from one end it looks straight, when i look at from the other end it looks crooked.?


Here are some pics, what do you guys think? If it is twisted any suggestions of what i should do? i have just enough material to shape it down the new line ive drawn (plus bone plates), but when i look down the siyha to the splice, it just doesnt look right then i go back to thinking it is already straight, :?

Thaughts...?

I'd say that looks good. You will most likely have to use some heat or pressure to correct some sideways twist in the end after all, but that will probably be no problem. If you wanted you could correct it now, by bending it in the opposite direction and applying a little heat to the bending sections.

You should have seen my last turkish bow from the same angle, hehe... It is really twisted when unstrung. Somewhat twisted when strung too, but it still shoots 8)

On the picture it looks as if the left side, measured from the centerline is slightly broader. Not unlikely that this gives the impression that something is off. The siyah looks fine though.

Kviljo wrote:

Adam wrote in his book that one should not heat the parts when waiting for the sizing to dry, as the glue would become weaker.

Kviljo, I was intrigued by this (it would have meant that I did it wrong in my bow project) and looked it up. On page 78 it says:

"First, 10-15% glue (the type that gels well) is made hot. The parts are also heated over an electric element and all surfaces are coated with glue, then heated again to make the glue dry quicker. The heating should not be excessive..."

It is OK to heat the sizing glue for splices, since the glue does little work (flex) within the splices. I have never had splices fail no matter how glued. But of course the last thick leayer is capable of gelling, as the glue here holds the parts together when gelled in this method.

Adam

I stand corrected :)

Ok Here are a couple more pics, i have cleaned up the core ready for the Horn, (first i have to work the horn down with nothing but a rasp!) :S
I also received the sinew and horn yesterday and the sinew has the little knuckle bony bits on them, do i just rip them off? also do you use the parts that are at the very end of the sinew? (the skinny forked bits),
And do the longest bits of sinew go on the bending parts on the first layer or the last? I would have thought the last but I'm not sure...
Thanks

Jakob

Oh,and two more questions,

How you you go about straightening the Thick end of the horn? the particular part is going on the handle but it goes of to the side.... ive tried steaming it ofor 5 or so minutes but that didnt seem to do much..

Plus... i think im only just going to get the needed horn plates out of these two horns, but these cracks on the edges are worrying me are they going to be of any harm??

Sorry for the load of questions, but allof your helpful answers and knowledge really get me past all these snags!!!

Jakob

Looking good so far!

Horn is readily steam-bent when it is thin. The largest I have tried to straighten were strips (dim - 10 - 5 mm X 300-600mm) after 20 -25 mins of steaming. It was remarkably pliable - like some modern wonder material. However, I suspect attempting to straighten horn when it is as thick as an unworked tip is futile.

Is it possible for you to extract a strip of the correct dimensions from the horn as it is? This would be the easiest solution. If you cannot, then don't be afraid to make the belly from three horn strips (the extra one across the non-bending handle). There is a guide to cutting multiple strips from a single horn somewhere on atarn. If you want to straighten the horn to avoid introducing twists, then I wouldn't worry. Natural materials are not homogeneous, so any materials you use have the potential to introduce twists. Twists are best corrected at the tillering phase, by horn scraping, or adding sinew.

Since the horn will be in compression, cracks such as those should not be an issue. Be careful when working it, some horns have the potential for bits to splinter off if they are worked too violently.

Best of luck.

Looking at the last pic, if you are working that close to the tip, I'd say the horns could do with being longer. In fact always get the largest you can, to get the best workable length.

JakobKurt wrote:

(first i have to work the horn down with nothing but a rasp!) :S
I also received the sinew and horn yesterday and the sinew has the little knuckle bony bits on them, do i just rip them off? also do you use the parts that are at the very end of the sinew? (the skinny forked bits),
And do the longest bits of sinew go on the bending parts on the first layer or the last? I would have thought the last but I'm not sure...
Thanks
Jakob

I also work with only handtools. But I have found cutting out the horn plates with a hacksaw is faster than working with only a rasp. Still a lot of boring work, but faster than using a rasp to remove everything. I cut the horn plates a little thicker than I want them, then use a rasp to the final thickness.
Also I cut off the horn bits at the end of the sinew. And the longest strands of sinew in the bending parts of the last layer where they do most work. (the longest distance from the neutral plane)

Hello again everyone! first of all thanks for all the helpful advise!
i've not had very much time at the moment to spare on my Bow project.
Now i'm slowly starting to continue!! :D

Ive worked down both horns to about 7-8mm with just the rasp and scraper, and it appears to me that one of the horn strips is unusable... :(
i have tried to show it in some pictures

-first of all, because i didnt get the longest horns possible (lesson learnt), i think im going to have to multiple horn pieces... I'm planning to get one piece for each bending part of the limbs, and butt smaller scrap pieces on either side over the v-splice and handle... is there anyone that would say this would be a mistake? (I'm only aiming for around 50 lbs).

but the crappie horn wont even get that length for the bending part of the limb i dont think... this is because there are hairline crack running quite a long way down the growth rings (which i tried to photograph with phone...)
The other reason being that the inside part of the horn (part that grows inside that is stuck to the buffalos head) went up pretty close to the tip of the horn... I think it was just a really bad quallity horn, which is sad because i spent more money than i should of to get those horns from highland horn. And to get an unusable one is not so nice... :cry:

I might just have to get a pre prepared 50cm strip from:

http://www.webshop-hermanski.de/webshop ... th=115_122


PICTURES:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/photosares ... 642858807/
Thoughts? advise?

thank you
Jakob

Jumping ahead a little bit....
With the sinewing method like the Korean bow bowyers do, with combing
out the fibers after being saturated with glue on the wooden slat. Does the
glue have to dry or gel before laying it on the bow or does it have to go on
still wet? Just because on the videos on YouTube and so, it looks like they leave the sinew "sheets" to dry a bit after being combed?
Just asking because I have heard a lot that the glue shouldnt be allowed to gel...? I'm just trying to decide what method would be easier.

Also any help for the last post with the horn? I'm kind of stuck on what to do there...?
Thanks
Jakob

Don't have experience myself yet but here is a video from Peter who shows up on this site that shows what you are asking however it is in Hungarian.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfUHMe7RQJ8

Maybe he will see this and explain for us.

Todd

My internet connection here is really slow, so I'm not able to see the photos, but maybe this helps:

Butting horns together is really fine in an area that is not doing much bending. You can also get away with it for a while in the bending parts, but it might not last forever, and a bow with such a butt splice would be quite likely to take some damage from breaking the string. But if you are going for a butt-splice in a place which is bending a bit, I would make sure to give the area close to the butt-splice extra thickness. 2-3mm extra horn there would help a lot, and I would also plan on putting some lengthwise laid sinew over the splice, and then wrap at least 2cm out from each side of the splice. Of course such an area will not bend much, and the tiller will look slightly off, but the horn/sinew can take a lot of bend, so you should be fine for a 50-pound bow even with quite short bending sections.

7-8mm thickness for the horn is about double of what you need for a good 50-pound bow. In fact, 3mm is fine for a light weight bow. But if the horns have enough thickness after making the glue-side flat and the belly-side shows no cracks, I would glue them to the core with the maximum thickness. That way, you have some extra possibility to adjust the tiller after sinewing, by reducing the horn.

Cracks in the horn may in fact not be any problem. At least lengthwise cracks that does not run out to the side of the horns. They might look scary, but once glued to the bow, it all becomes pretty rigid. I've had luck with filling small cracks in horn with super-glue (cyanoacrylate). Get the most runny one you can find. The red labelled from Hot-Stuff is really good. But before trying to tackle the cracks, reduce the horn as much as you can. It is quite probable that you can simply rasp and scrape it away.

To use most of the "hollow" part of the horn, you can boil the end of the horn for half a minute and clamp it to something flat, and them scrape it fully flat. If the horn is somewhat thin towards the base of the siyah, you could make the core a little thicker there, to compensate.

I haven't tried the Korean method for sinewing, but I'm pretty sure they let the strips of sinew gel before putting them on the bow. However they are of course glued to the bow with still liquid glue.

Thanks a bunch Kviljo for all the helpfull info!!!!!
From what you say I think where I want to make the but joints it should be fine.... (See what you think when you get to see the pictures). Is it important for the horn to be even thickness when it goes on the bow? Or can it be made even after its stuck on?
Jakob


Todd: thanks for the link. It's quite interesting to see how it's done at normal tempo with no cut clips (videos) :D

It's a good idea to make the horn even thickness before glueing them to the core, or rather the thickness they should be in the finished bow. They can be adjusted after glueing also, but then it is difficult to know the exact thickness of the horn versus the core wood.

I use a calliper to check that the horns are even thickness and also of the same thickness on both limbs. 1mm thicker in the grip end seems to be a good general starting point.


Just keep in mind that I'm not an expert, so I might give off information that I will not agree with later, hehe, so don't blame me :wink:

About splicing horn.
I had the same problem with a bad horn on my first hornbow. Because the horn turned sideways out of the bowlimb it was not possible to use it without cutting in two and butt-splice in the middle of the limb.
I knew (was told) it would not be safe, but as I had no more horn at the time I decided to go ahead to get a learning experience and a feel of the whole bowbuilding process. And then make a new bow from better horn later. After the bow was finished I put a heavy lashing of hemp over the splice.
The bow has now shot maybe between 100 and 200 arrows. I don't shoot it any more, as I want to keep it as my first bow, and I am quite certain that the splice will give up at some point.

So, have finished with the horn and have been sizing both horn and core for last 5 days and its started to gloss. So will probably have my first official go at doing a glue up tomorrow. I've done about 23 layers of 4-5% glue and will do the last one in the morning. I just have one question. I think i have read on here not that long ago that just before the glue up you are supposed to warm the horn and core up again so that they are not to hot to touch. Is this right? I can't find where I read it?

We've got here in Dresden very warm weather at the moment and I live in the roof flat on 4th story. So in the attic it is around 45 degrees so that should be a good place to put it together....???

Jakob

The idea about heating the horn is to prevent the glue from gelling too fast when doing the glue-up. I think you should be able to use pure hide glue, which gells pretty fast in normal temperatures, if you did all the glue up in 45 degrees. The glue that you use should gell as fast as possible, while still being able to put on all the clamps before the glue gells. That way you will have the highest strength glue, and also a good bond.

I made my own version of some calipers to get the horn all the same thickness. I have also made some variations to the tips as well so can no longer call it a Magyar bow... I have cut out some of the tops of the tips so it looks more like one of the yuan bows from saluki bows.. Also instead o having the horn plates as re-enforcement on the sides of the ears I have put one long one down the middle. Both these things for as much weight reduction as possible.... I know it's my first bow, and it is also just an experience gainer. But I'm also trying to get an ok shooting bow... (Hoping :D )

Oh, and the butt joints are already right where the "normal" grip and ear wrapping sections are so hopefully that works out!

Thanks Kviljo. What exactly do you mean with pure hide glue? Do you mean using very little water to make it liquefy? If that's the case wouldn't it be to brittle? What percentage would you use if you we're in my situation?
Thanks
Jakob

Pure hide glue would mean only hide glue and water. I think 25-35% glue and the rest water is good for the final glue up of the horn. My workshop is not warm enough to use pure hide glue, so I mix in some slow gelling fish bladder glue to make it gel slower and at a lower temperature.

Ok, so i have just done the glue up. Now i Know what people mean when they say its a stressfull time!!!! :P I used inner tube to bind it together, i pulled it as tight as i could, so i hope it is enough pressure and that its going to work out ok... :?

In some rather long sections along the limb, i cant see the join to see if glue is getting sucked in or squeezed out, what should i do about this? how important is it to see? and if its sucking glue in, how would i get more glue in there?

it was around 45 degrees in the attic where i did it, so to me there were no signs of gelling of the hide glue (30 % glue/70% water)

I took the binding of the glued together core today to inspect and clean it up, and it looks ok to me!! hopefully it is glued together properly. I butted some yew pieces to the ends of my short horn strips.
As a first timer there are quite a few doubts. my main worry is if i had enough pressure on it with the tyre tube? As i was putting it together i got glue everywhere including on my hands and the inner tube which made it quite slippery when pulling it tight.....
Secondly i just cant see how the glue will bend that much? all the stuff that was on the outside that i broke of when untying it was really quite brittle... is that normal?

Anyway... here are a couple of picture of how its looking so far..

http://www.flickr.com/photos/photosares ... 642858807/


As i already said im not calling it a magyar bow anymore. I could probably call it a yuan bow...??

Oh yeah, and is there any specific amount of time it should wait before laying the first sinew layer?

Hello again,
At the moment I'm looking at starting to "pre-tiller". I have drawn some lines on the side of the limbs to show you what I think looks right. But I just thought I would write and see first if anyone thaught that its not so good or has advise before I attack it with sand paper and a scraper.

Here is the link again for the pictures:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/photosarestories/

Jakob

You should follow the advice already given earlier...buy Adams book it has the answer to all your previous questions and all the questions you still have to ask! Just go hungry for a few days to get the money together....Buying the book WILL save you money.

As for how long to wait after gluing the horns - 2 weeks should be sufficent. Inner tubes aren't the best method for horn gluing...rubber that is tight to begin with 'creeps' over time and the clamping force is reduced, heat also makes it weaker. As you have found out it also means that you can't keep the glue fillet topped up as the glue gels. Be watchful for horn delamination when it comes to bending it, if caught early it can be fixed.

Yes I agree with the book. I should be able to order it at the end o this month...
As for the horn - core glue join from the outside it looks ok. It is a perfect seem all the way down the bow (to be) and the grooves which are about 1 1/2 - 2 mm deep are pretty perfectly joined together, and as I said the glue definitely did gel when putting it together. But of course, I am really trying to expect to happen what you wrote with the de-lam!!!
Just have wait and see I guess... I'm hoping!
:?
It is now almost ready for the first layer of sinew now.
Shredding the sinew is taking me a really really long time!! I have already spent so many hours and have only just done four tendons..

Yes fingers crossed! You'll learn something whatever happens which is the important thing in the end.
shredding sinew gets easier with time and practise....honestly!

JakobKurt wrote:

and as I said the glue definitely did * gel when putting it together.

* did NOT gel.