Building first bow
Hi all,
just thought i would start a post as i am attempting my first composite traditional bow. I have decided or should i say stated with a 4mm/ 3/8 inch ash core steam bent at handle with a 25 degree recurve, 30mm/ 1 1/4 inch wide, 900mm/ 36 inch long with 250mm/ 10 inch beech siyahs, i am fitting a beech riser with bone side plates and bone plates to the side of the siyahs, i have made my own hide glue from rawhide dogchews and it turned out really well. The only concern i have is a slight propellor twist to the core which i can straighten but returns the following day, should i try to correct this after horn has been laid up using heat or wait till horn and sinew is laid up. I am planning to use horn at 3.5mm tapering to 2.5 to siyahs and 3 layers of deer sinew, can anybody guesstimate the pull weight and what would be the best brace hieght. I know its quite a short bow but it is for horse back archery. And does grooving the horn and core make that much difference. All help is welcome and useful critisism too. Will post some pics soon.
just thought i would start a post as i am attempting my first composite traditional bow. I have decided or should i say stated with a 4mm/ 3/8 inch ash core steam bent at handle with a 25 degree recurve, 30mm/ 1 1/4 inch wide, 900mm/ 36 inch long with 250mm/ 10 inch beech siyahs, i am fitting a beech riser with bone side plates and bone plates to the side of the siyahs, i have made my own hide glue from rawhide dogchews and it turned out really well. The only concern i have is a slight propellor twist to the core which i can straighten but returns the following day, should i try to correct this after horn has been laid up using heat or wait till horn and sinew is laid up. I am planning to use horn at 3.5mm tapering to 2.5 to siyahs and 3 layers of deer sinew, can anybody guesstimate the pull weight and what would be the best brace hieght. I know its quite a short bow but it is for horse back archery. And does grooving the horn and core make that much difference. All help is welcome and useful critisism too. Will post some pics soon.
Hi, the twist will more likely worsen, you need to start with a straight core: try to fix this one, or make a new one (thicker would be better). Check that the forms you use for bending are well squared.
Well made grooves will increase the glueing surface, but there are more things that can go wrong with grooving (pockets of air, thick glue line...); personally I think grooves are not strictly necessary for "normal" bows (just my opinion). You need to give us more details about the bow, like the sinew thickness and the angle of siyahs.
Francesco
Well made grooves will increase the glueing surface, but there are more things that can go wrong with grooving (pockets of air, thick glue line...); personally I think grooves are not strictly necessary for "normal" bows (just my opinion). You need to give us more details about the bow, like the sinew thickness and the angle of siyahs.
Francesco
Hi, The bow im building the over all length from tip to tip of siyahs is 60" (1520mm) the width is 1 1/4" (32mm) and has core of ash 3/16 (4mm) and horn belly 3/16 (4mm) at grip tapering to 5/64 (2mm) i am aiming for about 1/8 (3mm) sinew and bone side plates to grip. The internal angle of the siyahs is about 140 degrees I am thinking of adding some horn string stools to make it a bit more personal and whipping with silk either side of grip and siyahs. My main concern is as it was my first horn bow i have decided to use two pieces of horn to each limb with a 6mm bone spacer between. I Will use full length horn on next bow when i have confidence. oh by the way i manged to get the twist out and the tips line up perfectly now. :D
So there are four strips of horn in the bow, one after the other? Not good.Gazzanoo wrote:
i have decided to use two pieces of horn to each limb with a 6mm bone spacer between.
Where are the bone spacers?
I only used the horn that way because i didn't want to waste the full lengths till i have mastered the shaping and gluing process. the bone spacers are midway up the limbs of the bow, and one in the middle of the handle.
I hope others with more experience will chip in.
AFAIK, the spacers in the bending sections is where the horn will delaminate. Maybe not at the first shot, but it will.
AFAIK, the spacers in the bending sections is where the horn will delaminate. Maybe not at the first shot, but it will.
If and no doubt when it does delaminate if the bow looks good i will try to replace with full length horn, but as i said this is just to get experience in shaping and gluing up before spending to much on materials. I might whip sinew round the horn ends either side of the spacer to strengthen i know this will affect the action of the bow but i am learning all the time and didn't expect the first or second bow to be perfect. All i can say i am really enjoying the build and if it snaps or doesn't perform well i will not be too bothered. Can always hang it on the wall.
I don't have very much experience, but I also had this problem with my first hornbow. One of the horns was not straight and turned sideways out of the limb. I had no more horn at the time, so to get experience I decided, like you, to cut the horn in two, and butt splice it. I used a piece of the same horn inserted in the gap, wich was 4-5mm. The splice is in a very unfortunate place, a bit closer to the handle than midlimb, right where it bends most. It was secured with a tight wrapping of linen cord when the bow was finished. The bow was at 42 pounds, and with a relative gentle geometry since first try.
I got the same warning as you, that the splice might hold for some time, but would eventually break down, I do no doubt this, so I don't shoot the bow anymore as I want to keep my first bow. But I learned a lot from making it, and I would guess it has shot a little more than hundred arrows.
Regarding substituting the horn if it works out ok, is it not a risk that the core could break if the horn collapses?
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I got the same warning as you, that the splice might hold for some time, but would eventually break down, I do no doubt this, so I don't shoot the bow anymore as I want to keep my first bow. But I learned a lot from making it, and I would guess it has shot a little more than hundred arrows.
Regarding substituting the horn if it works out ok, is it not a risk that the core could break if the horn collapses?
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Just added my first layer of sinew, how long should i wait before adding my next layer
Until it's dry. But not to long
Jack Farrell examined the bows from Shiluustei sum and found that the horn is probably made in 6 pieces (3 per limb, one covering the flexible part and 2 over the transition areas to grip / kasan). there is no celik / spacer at the grip as the horn is let-in and butt-joined to the wooden grip core.
in summary: where necessary, multiple horn pieces were probably used in ancient bows, too; avoiding joints in the most flexible sal part
in summary: where necessary, multiple horn pieces were probably used in ancient bows, too; avoiding joints in the most flexible sal part
Thanks Jack, i thought i had read somewhere that rams horn were used in pieces but i needed some confirmation the joint is unfortunately mid limb but if i whip it rouond with sinew i am hoping it will stand up for a while, if i feel or hear it about to crack i will strip horn and relaminate with full length as i think i have done a fair job on sinewing the back and shaping the Kasans and splicing. Will post some pics as soon as i find my memory card for camera( Fancy forgetting where i put a memory card)lol
Sorry Uli dont know why i put Jack, thanks to you and him are due i suppose.
I Sinewed bow over a 3 day period I used Red deer sinew and hide glue, i was a bit worried about having glue to hot and cooking sinew, Glue was about 40C and seemed to work quite well with the sinew laying well, I added three layers tapering slightly to outer edges. to form a slight D cross section. Being a bit of an impatient sod, i decided to curve the sals today using basic tepeliks. I clamped grip end of tepelik to sal and heated bow with wifes hair dryer, heat gun was to hot i think. started to clamp Kasan end of tepelik and i was suprised how easy it bent for the first half until middle of tepelik met horn. I placed another clamp midway and then tightened outer clamp some more to bend sal approx 75% of total radius of tepelik, keeping the hair dryer blowing on sal all the time. No creaks or groans from bow or me, going to leave at that overnight and then tighten to full 100% radius tomorrow. Will post some pics later.
Here are some pics, soory about quality of pictures need a new camera
Another pic
hehe hair dryer is good.. horn is hair as we know.
this procedure (very short sinew curing and heat-bending sal regions) will result in a shootable bow but you will loose a lot of draw-weight and efficiency by that.
like the outline fo your bow.
this procedure (very short sinew curing and heat-bending sal regions) will result in a shootable bow but you will loose a lot of draw-weight and efficiency by that.
like the outline fo your bow.
I am making this bow as an exercise to familiarise myself with the construction techniques and possible pitfalls that i will encounter on my main bow build. Thanks i like the shape too, how long do tepeliks stay on for.
Jumping ahead a bit, i want to cover the back of bow with either birch bark, fish skin or leather. do i do this after the bow has been reflexed and strung or before. Thanks
I have took the tepeliks off after 2 days how does it look.
That kind of backing won't affect the draw weight, so you back the bow - with whatever - after tillering and before stringing.
"That kind of backing won't affect the draw weight" : what do you mean? 2-3 mm of sinew will affect the draw weight, and prevent the bow from breaking; tillering a hornbow without sinew is a bad idea.
Francesco
Francesco
Francesco, I think Ken meant "birch bark, fish skin or leather", not the sinew layer.
Cheers,
Jarek
Cheers,
Jarek
Sorry i meant to cover the sinew after or before tillering
Oops, I'm an idiot: I missed that part :) ; sometimes I've read such advice like "tillering-before-sinewing" . But why put the backing over sinew "before stringing"? I cover and decorate my bows only after shooting them several times.
Francesco
Francesco
Does my bow look as if it will work, i am quite pleased with the shape but really need some feed back thanks
Thanks Francesco that is what i wanted to know, i am really green at this and keen to learn
It's difficult to say, just by looking at your pictures; maybe there is a slight hinge just where the spacers are, but I might be wrong. I would use tepeliks with a greater radius of curvature (using clamps instead of cord is a bit brutal), and shift them more toward the grip. I would cover with sinew also the sides of the core, and put a sinew binding over the joints (where are the bone spacers). Experimenting with short pieces of horn is nice, you'll learn a lot. String the bow, make more pictures, and good luck.
Francesco
Francesco
Thanks, yes i am going to bind the joints using sinew/silk i really appreciate all the feedback i get and just like you said this bow is just a test project if it collapses it happens but i will have learnt so much from you people the next one will hopefully be good.
The bow is backed with sinew already but i will apply some more if needed and cover the sides of the core.
Your teplics were too sharp of a radius by the look of it relaxed. Also don't use clamps! As Alessi said they are a bit brutal.
Strung up bow and had it tillered to 24" @ 30lb pulled it to 26" and crack, i thought the glue or core had gone but no the buffalo horn delaminated i 3rd along sal, will i be able to clean up core and just replace horn or is it worth replacing all horn. I am also making new tepeliks with a lesser radius, should i try to straighten sals first then reform or just apply new Tepeliks to bow and see if that works. :(
After examining the horn and doing some measurements the part that delaminated seemed to have a thicker area than the rest, almost 5mm the part nearest the grip is 4mm and nearest the middle 3mm, i know it was my fault and shoddy workmanship think i will invest in a pair of calipers to check horn thickness in future. i think this probably put more strain on the horn does anybody agree.
Have you got Adam's book? It is essential if you ask me! It tells you how to fix and more importantly how to avoid these problems. Once you get the book follow everything word for word and you will likely end up with a shooting bow! :)
The thick spot on the horn would have been noticable before glue-up - it really is important to get everything as near perfect as possible or else things like this happen.
The thick spot may have been part of the reason it delaminated.
What process did you use to prepare the core/horn. Did you touch any of the parts with bare hands?
The thick spot on the horn would have been noticable before glue-up - it really is important to get everything as near perfect as possible or else things like this happen.
The thick spot may have been part of the reason it delaminated.
What process did you use to prepare the core/horn. Did you touch any of the parts with bare hands?
I have not got Adams book, but i will purchase it soon, horn and core were both coated with about 10 coats of 20% hide glue mix over 2 day period. Horn and core glued faces were not touched with bare hands, full strength hide glue was applied to both faces and clamped together using clinching rope. Left for 3 days then rope taken off and left for another week before sinewing over a 3 day period. Core is 5mm Ash. I am buying a drum sander to get even thickness on horn in future then reducing horn thickness towards kasans by hand when fixed to core. I realise there is a lot of work to building a horn bow and failures are part of the learning curve. Time costs nothing only wasted materials are of concern.
Did the horn delaminate "internally" or just detach from the core? Pictures would be helpful. I think that 20% glue is too thick for coating, and 10 coats of that will make a glue line too thick. If the core is still intact, you can glue another horn strip on it. Checking the thickness is important: I couldn't work without my caliper :) .
Horn delaminated internally glue stayed intact, threw horn away so no photos sorry, i have fiitted a new piece of horn and will leave it for 4 days to cure.
Well i have strung my bow but i think the string maybe too short quite a high brace height 7.5 inches or 195mm. Should i use a longer string. Thanks.
gratulations :D
let us know how the bow performs
let us know how the bow performs
Put longer linen string on brace height now 6" or 150mm.
Used bow about 1HR ago, i am used to shooting 60lb longbows only pulled to 24" but it shot like a dream and no kick back or twist in hand, i will post results for next shooting soon. Thanks everybody for your help and advice and not forgetting constructive criticsim. Will post photos of draw weight soon. Thanks again.
looks great, waiting to see more pictures and specs.
Todd
Todd
Nice shape, congrats! Longer string loops will give more stability.
Shot bow for a while this morning using 35 gram target point 9mm pine arrows with 3" feather shield fletching and 44 gram 9mm pine with hunting tip and 4" feather shield fletching. Happy with performance. Pulled it to 28" not tried full 32" draw yet and might not, dont want to break it. Here is a chart of tillering stats. I have no idea what the figures are supposed to look like when plotted on a graph but it seems a nice steady curve. Graph starts at 14" becayse that is first notch on tillering board.
Spent another couple of hours shooting my horn bow, my style must be lacking something, i feel the bow is quite snatchy but maybe thats because i am used to ELB's. I am using the 3 finger pull as i find the thumb pull a little difficult but will work on it, Do horn bows settle in to the users style like longbows do or is it upto me to get used to the characteristics of a different style of bow.
Here is bow at 26" i am a bit worried about area outlined can i correct this by either adding sinew or reducing horn.
can somebody give me advice on how to balance the two sals if its needed.
thanks
thanks
Perhaps the outlined limb is little bit stiffer near the handle?
I think you have to scrape away some material in the zone between the beginning of the limb and the sinew binding (right limb). You can use heat as well, but the stiff spot is small.
I left bow strung up for 3 days and the weather has been really damp, usual for UK.Bow has lost about 10lb in draw weight is that normal.
This is my bow finished rawhide covering over sinew dyed black over sinew. Sorry about string but my flax one has frayed a bit and didn't want to risk a anap off.
Bravo! Very nice!
Congrats..
Cem
Cem
Nice! Looks like it is bending very well :)
Hello.
your bow is really successful
I read all the topic and I've some questions.
What kind of glue did you use to glue the horn on the wood ?
Have you scratched or grooved surface of wood and horn ?
When you used tipeliks, how was the sinew backing ? No trace ?
Do you think 3 months is sufficient drying ?
How many layers of sinew and how long, from the first layer to the last layer ?
your bow is really successful
I read all the topic and I've some questions.
What kind of glue did you use to glue the horn on the wood ?
Have you scratched or grooved surface of wood and horn ?
When you used tipeliks, how was the sinew backing ? No trace ?
Do you think 3 months is sufficient drying ?
How many layers of sinew and how long, from the first layer to the last layer ?
Hi, I used hide glue made from hide dog chews heated in water about 50% water to same amount hide chews.
As it was my first attempt I never used grooves but roughed up with coarse sandpaper and applied 10 coats of 20% glue to core and horn then glued up and left to dry.
When Tepeliks were used there was three layers of sinew I added more after and also wrapped joints of horn with sinew.
As I stated it was more an exercise in making my first bow, I rushed a few things but I have shot about 120 arrows to date with no problems except a fewer minor creaks when first shot after being unstrung. Pulling about 48lb at 30 inches so not too bad. Getting better at shooting this but I am still more accurate with ELB and Holmegaard bow I have recently built.
All in all 4 layers of sinew 3 at first lay up then 1 later after tepeliks and horn delamination. Sinew back is covered with dyed Rawhide and decorated with gold patterning. Handle is covered with home tanned salmon skin(smoked). Nicer colour.
As it was my first attempt I never used grooves but roughed up with coarse sandpaper and applied 10 coats of 20% glue to core and horn then glued up and left to dry.
When Tepeliks were used there was three layers of sinew I added more after and also wrapped joints of horn with sinew.
As I stated it was more an exercise in making my first bow, I rushed a few things but I have shot about 120 arrows to date with no problems except a fewer minor creaks when first shot after being unstrung. Pulling about 48lb at 30 inches so not too bad. Getting better at shooting this but I am still more accurate with ELB and Holmegaard bow I have recently built.
All in all 4 layers of sinew 3 at first lay up then 1 later after tepeliks and horn delamination. Sinew back is covered with dyed Rawhide and decorated with gold patterning. Handle is covered with home tanned salmon skin(smoked). Nicer colour.
Thanks.