Jkekoni's Horn bow project

Why did you bother making grooves when you are using an epoxy? No need to worry about grooving just flat surfaces roughened would have done the job.
It risky using epoxy because you won't be able to use heat to correct twist etc. fingers crossed it's plumb straight!

I did grooving to avoid failure of wood just near the glue line.

My idea is that grooving makes the MOE (bendiness) not to change instantly, but gradually, the same as with proper glue.

(Proper glue has moe simiilar to horn, so the moe changes once not twice, anyhow the idea is same.)

I do not claim grooving makes more durable core with epoxy, I just described my reasoning why it may...

mikekeswick wrote:

It risky using epoxy because you won't be able to use heat to correct twist etc.

This would be a very good reason indeed to stick to natural glue. But are you sure? I am asking because after all, the horn stays thermoplastic - whether it was glued using epoxy or hide glue.

If you go for a 60#-65# bow the limb should not be more than 8-9 mm at the thinnest part of the limb (without sinew). Epoxy is useful stuff but not for hornbows. I did the same at my first (failed) bows but never more (I was not able to reuse the horn..) Good luck!

Many Epoxies can be adjusted with heat. The original article in Primitive Archer on constructing a horn bow involved the use of Epoxy and that guy made a lot of fine bows.

Pat Menzies wrote:

Many Epoxies can be adjusted with heat. The original article in Primitive Archer on constructing a horn bow involved the use of Epoxy and that guy made a lot of fine bows.

Like which ones?
All the ''epoxies'' i've used aren't good over 55 deg celcius. The point I was making is that hide/sinew/fish glues are fine with the temperatures needed to correct a hornbow but from what I have seen most modern epoxies won't handle the sort of temps needed for corrections without having to worry about them. Resourcinol has a high resistance to heat once cured and wood glued with it can be steamed.
I think most moderns glues works best with good mating surfaces and little in the way of gaps. Epoxies tend to have excellent wetting properties so grooving, roughening up etc isn't necessary and make weaken the joint.
Anyway the way to know for 100% the working properties of the specific glue you are using is always, always refer to the tech sheet. I always get this data from the manufacturer before using a new unfamiliar glue.

G flex and the toughened variety of G Flex don't mind the same sort of adjusting as Hide glue. Keep in mind that some twists can be temporarily corrected through each shooting session, even if they creep back over a long period of unstringing.
I've never seen a tech sheet on animal glue. ;)

Don't worry about epoxy! You can correct the twist (if it needs) if you will use organic glue for sinewing. I have corrected a huge twist at my first bow. I used epoxi for the horn and mix of fish bladder and hide glue for the sinewing.
I don't use epoxi anymore, but only because I want to use original (organic) materials for horn bows.

I do remember reading (from here) that epoxied bow can be corrected with heat. I know it is not mentioned in Ottaman T?rkish bows, because the conversation is newer that the book.

resorcinol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resorcinol_glue

I do not see the point of replacing natural glue with a fake one with no good gap filling properties... or actually if it is likely to have longer open time.

I do not think bow building is for people who are worried about failing. :twisted: Horn bows less so, because they have much more time invested ... and money too.

I will use Dick hide glue for the sinew. I have used it and I have it. I plan to use moose sinew and red deer sinew, if I for some reason fail to get it.

I certainly wouldn't be using wikipedia for info on glues...:)
I got my information on resourcinol from the people who make it now. The guy I spoke to knew just about everything possible about it :)
So do you think that hide glue has good 'gap filing' properties? May I suggest otherwise...lots and lots of tests have been done on collogen glues.
I will stand by my statement that resourcinol would be a good choice if for some reason you didn't want to use a collogen glue that has been proven to work perfectly.
Just don't roughen the horn/core surfaces and definately don't groove.
I have made quite a few minature horn bows with this glue and know that it does work. I used a modern glue simply to speed up the process of making these miniture bows.
Jkekoni - resourcinol comes in 3 versions with different open times. This is on the spec sheet.
What do you need gap filing properties if there are no gaps.....just prepare flat surfaces??
Do I strike you as someone who is worried about failing??? Do you want to see my pile of experimental bows....:) It's a big pile!

mikekeswick wrote:

I certainly wouldn't be using wikipedia for info on glues...:)

I agree... I just googled and found very little information of generic nature...

So do you think that hide glue has good 'gap filing' properties? May I suggest otherwise...

I did not say so, nor did I mean to imply so. My point was not to replace period material with non period material without benefits. Hide glue is not a good gap filler -> replace with epoxy as fake material with gap filling properties. Even so as I said if resourcinol has longer open time it is alone a reason to use it.

I will stand by my statement that resourcinol would be a good choice if for some reason you didn't want to use a collogen glue that has been proven to work perfectly.

I am not qualified to comment on this one. I have newer seen or used resourcinol as you probably guessed already. I know collagen glue is known to work for period bows. It makes it good enough, not perfect...

What do you need gap filing properties if there are no gaps.....just prepare flat surfaces??

Poorly mating surfaces.... epoxy is for good for the lazy ... ( not meant to point anyone ... except perhaps myself)

robinhoodfromhun wrote:

Don't worry about epoxy!

jkekoni wrote:

I do not think bow building is for people who are worried about failing...

mikekeswick wrote:

Do I strike you as someone who is worried about failing???

:?

Should we leave the conversation about conversation and rather have a conversation about bow building...

How did you bend such a thick wood? Did you steam it, or cook it? I wondering if I could bend a wood for Hungarian bow's ears. I should be able to bend a 25 mm thick lath for that

That made on Avar bows.

How did you bend such a thick wood?

I am using commercial maple, with unknown subspicies.
Hazel <Corylus Avellana> works too, but must not be green, but has to be dried before immersion (original research).

I rounded corners in the inner curve.
I immersed into water for 4 days. (Ottoman turkish bows recommends 3 weeks for kiln dried wood, I do not.)
I exchanged to hot water from tap.
I headed to boiling point.
I boiled for 70-90 minutes.

I bent to form and clamped with C-clamps. Kept there for over a week or so. Maple and 18-20mm dry thickness. Thicker wood than this has been bent to tighter curve. Metal strap helps against splits, but i did not use any since they are in the way, there is hurry with bending.

Steaming has newer worked for me.

Ok, thank you! I'm gonna try it.

Pictures.

The limb thickness was 9.4-8.8mm when I applied sinew. I did not remove any more wood, since I was running out of wood.

If/when horn needs to be taken away, I can take it after sinewing.

(No piece of core has been detached, it is only picture...)

I see you are getting along, what kind of sinew and glue did you use? :D

Mostly moose<Alces alces> sinew, some red deer<Cervus elaphus> sinew from highland horn mostly on handle.

The sal is mostly covered with fully intact lengths of sinew barely long enough.

I put most good sinew from 10 legs. The moose were shot with small moose "vasa" permits. The legs were cut in the knee. I took the full length of sinew and did not cut the legs in "wrist" for easier processing.

Horn is from this board. Mapple is from local wood store.

Hide glue from dick.