Thumbrings, thumb gloves, thumb tabs etc... pros and cons ?
Hi and Happy New Year to all :)
A very general question to all on thumb rings. What type of thumb ring do you use ?
Is it made of a hard material eg horn, metal, plastic ? Or a soft one eg leather, athletic tape ? Does anyone use a thumb sock or glove eg kaya shooting glove ? Or even a thumb "tab" or atheletic tape / bare thumb ? Opinions on the pros and cons please. Which do you think is "better"
Also experiences of using different types of thumb rings. What thumb ring did you start off with ? Any information would be much appreciated.
Just for the record I started with a leather glove on a 30lb Scythian type bow, progressed up to a 50lb -55lb + Magyar type bow within a few months and recently moved on to a horn thumb ring. I'm finding it difficult with the horn thumb ring. Not quite as accurate ( although that may come in time as I've seen progress ), painful ( absolutely no pain with the glove ) and getting occaisional misfires, feels unstable in the draw compared to the glove although I think I may have remedied this by gluing some leather on the lip of the ring, feels a lot more stable / secure now.
Look forward to reading your replies :)
A very general question to all on thumb rings. What type of thumb ring do you use ?
Is it made of a hard material eg horn, metal, plastic ? Or a soft one eg leather, athletic tape ? Does anyone use a thumb sock or glove eg kaya shooting glove ? Or even a thumb "tab" or atheletic tape / bare thumb ? Opinions on the pros and cons please. Which do you think is "better"
Also experiences of using different types of thumb rings. What thumb ring did you start off with ? Any information would be much appreciated.
Just for the record I started with a leather glove on a 30lb Scythian type bow, progressed up to a 50lb -55lb + Magyar type bow within a few months and recently moved on to a horn thumb ring. I'm finding it difficult with the horn thumb ring. Not quite as accurate ( although that may come in time as I've seen progress ), painful ( absolutely no pain with the glove ) and getting occaisional misfires, feels unstable in the draw compared to the glove although I think I may have remedied this by gluing some leather on the lip of the ring, feels a lot more stable / secure now.
Look forward to reading your replies :)
Hi Zotski,
then I'm afraid your horn ring does not fit. In my opinion, a ring made from hard material is the best there is - if it fits well. Then shooting is completely painless, and the string comes off a defined ridge - unlike with a glove, where it is quite difficult to position the string at exactly the same point of the thumb every time.
Take a look into Adam Swoboda's book, it has a very good description of how a hard ring should fit so it is painless to shoot.
then I'm afraid your horn ring does not fit. In my opinion, a ring made from hard material is the best there is - if it fits well. Then shooting is completely painless, and the string comes off a defined ridge - unlike with a glove, where it is quite difficult to position the string at exactly the same point of the thumb every time.
Take a look into Adam Swoboda's book, it has a very good description of how a hard ring should fit so it is painless to shoot.
About thirty-eight years ago, I started using a fifty pound bow with no thumb ring. After about an hour my thumb would blister and start to bleed. Unfortunately it went numb first so I could never stop in time. After a year or two of this I was really pleased to be shown how to make a leather thumb guard. This eliminated the bleeding, though it was only a millimetre thick so blistering could still occur.
The person who showed me how to make the leather guard then brought out some old rings and let me photograph them. I went home and made my first ring fro buffalo horn. I still have it and it's terrible. Over the years, I learned how to make better guards from leather and much better rings from horn and metal.
For the last ten years or so, as a result of a discussion about kulaks with Dr Grayson, I have been shooting with a thin copper ring with a goatskin kulak. The kulak keeps it in the same place on my thumb while I am shooting which is very convenient, but it is not essential.
If you work a lot with your hands or do sports like rock climbing, you may only need a leather guard. They are convenient, easy to replace and shoot very accurately. I have soft hands only toughened on a keyboard so a hard ring is often the most comfortable choice. Due to a freak of nature, many of the old rings I own fit me so I have been able to try out antique rings and judge their feel and comfort. This includes Persian, Turkish and even Chinese rings. In one case a friend made and exact expanded copy of an old (2,300 year old) jade ring and I tried it out.
Here are some tips.
Start using a leather guard first so that you know how the string feels and how a clean release feels. After that, you should be able to judge whether a thumb ring is a good fit.
Don't shoot a bow with a thumb ring that you cannot draw (but not release) with your bare thumb in the proper lock. If you can't hold your fingers and thumb in the right position, no matter how good your thumb ring is you will not shoot well. Stick to a bow within your strength range.
Most rings with a groove or those little tear-drop shaped bulges like the Fustat ring were meant for a square grip on the string. That is the string going straight across the thumb. This is also true for rings with concave lips like some Seljuk rings. Rings that have doubly curved lips (both longitudinally and transversely) are meant for an oblique position of the string. So are rings that have the lip only curved transversally.
If the lip of the ring is as long as the last segment of the thumb, you put the tip of the ring on the side of the middle finger and not the tip of the thumb.
Judging by the design of archer's rings over the centuries, there was a steady development of technique which meant that physical aids like grooves were dispensed with over time. However, if you get yourself an old style ring, you have to use it in an old fashioned way.
The person who showed me how to make the leather guard then brought out some old rings and let me photograph them. I went home and made my first ring fro buffalo horn. I still have it and it's terrible. Over the years, I learned how to make better guards from leather and much better rings from horn and metal.
For the last ten years or so, as a result of a discussion about kulaks with Dr Grayson, I have been shooting with a thin copper ring with a goatskin kulak. The kulak keeps it in the same place on my thumb while I am shooting which is very convenient, but it is not essential.
If you work a lot with your hands or do sports like rock climbing, you may only need a leather guard. They are convenient, easy to replace and shoot very accurately. I have soft hands only toughened on a keyboard so a hard ring is often the most comfortable choice. Due to a freak of nature, many of the old rings I own fit me so I have been able to try out antique rings and judge their feel and comfort. This includes Persian, Turkish and even Chinese rings. In one case a friend made and exact expanded copy of an old (2,300 year old) jade ring and I tried it out.
Here are some tips.
Start using a leather guard first so that you know how the string feels and how a clean release feels. After that, you should be able to judge whether a thumb ring is a good fit.
Don't shoot a bow with a thumb ring that you cannot draw (but not release) with your bare thumb in the proper lock. If you can't hold your fingers and thumb in the right position, no matter how good your thumb ring is you will not shoot well. Stick to a bow within your strength range.
Most rings with a groove or those little tear-drop shaped bulges like the Fustat ring were meant for a square grip on the string. That is the string going straight across the thumb. This is also true for rings with concave lips like some Seljuk rings. Rings that have doubly curved lips (both longitudinally and transversely) are meant for an oblique position of the string. So are rings that have the lip only curved transversally.
If the lip of the ring is as long as the last segment of the thumb, you put the tip of the ring on the side of the middle finger and not the tip of the thumb.
Judging by the design of archer's rings over the centuries, there was a steady development of technique which meant that physical aids like grooves were dispensed with over time. However, if you get yourself an old style ring, you have to use it in an old fashioned way.
Your right Arry my thumb ring didn't fit well, I've modified it further since and it's a good snug fit now, a lot less painful but still not completely comfortable :oops: no misfires though and accuracy improving.
Funny that you mentioned Adam Swoboda's book. I've literally just finished reading it.
Adam states in his book that a leather thumb ring ( I'm assuming gloves and "thumb tabs" are classed the same for the purposes of thumb draw shooting ) is just as accurate if not more accurate than a hard thumb ring as long as your form is good ! To be honest I'm surprised as I always thought a hard ring would be more accurate. For me this now begs the question why bother with a hard thumb bring ?
With regards to using a glove surely if you are placing the string in the crease of the joint then that will always be a constant to position the string ?
@ Bede how come you went to hard thumb rings after leather thumb guards ? Surely your thumb would have got conditioned and toughened especially after your bloody start with the thumb draw ! Like I said at the moment I'm finding shooting more comfortable with a glove than a hard ring !
Funny that you mentioned Adam Swoboda's book. I've literally just finished reading it.
Adam states in his book that a leather thumb ring ( I'm assuming gloves and "thumb tabs" are classed the same for the purposes of thumb draw shooting ) is just as accurate if not more accurate than a hard thumb ring as long as your form is good ! To be honest I'm surprised as I always thought a hard ring would be more accurate. For me this now begs the question why bother with a hard thumb bring ?
With regards to using a glove surely if you are placing the string in the crease of the joint then that will always be a constant to position the string ?
@ Bede how come you went to hard thumb rings after leather thumb guards ? Surely your thumb would have got conditioned and toughened especially after your bloody start with the thumb draw ! Like I said at the moment I'm finding shooting more comfortable with a glove than a hard ring !
If it ain't broke, don't fix it:)
I glad that you started this topic because I too have been curious about others experiences regarding thumb release. I have encountered some of the problems you described, likely it seems that most of them are temporary issues and quite easy solved as you technique improves.
Handling moderate weight bow - 65 lbs or so proved to be very manageable after only few months of pulling one using leather thumb pad (I didn't shoot at all, just pulled focusing on a proper grip, comfortable hook with my thumb and optimal drawing cycle) Then when I finally started shooting everything felt right. Although I had some issues with an arrow flight (fishtailing) this is now solved and pretty much every arrow comes off the bow straight and true. I believe I'm on the right track.
Having said that I don't deny that hard thumb ring has its own advantages I just can't really see it clearly enough to get convinced.
I glad that you started this topic because I too have been curious about others experiences regarding thumb release. I have encountered some of the problems you described, likely it seems that most of them are temporary issues and quite easy solved as you technique improves.
Handling moderate weight bow - 65 lbs or so proved to be very manageable after only few months of pulling one using leather thumb pad (I didn't shoot at all, just pulled focusing on a proper grip, comfortable hook with my thumb and optimal drawing cycle) Then when I finally started shooting everything felt right. Although I had some issues with an arrow flight (fishtailing) this is now solved and pretty much every arrow comes off the bow straight and true. I believe I'm on the right track.
Having said that I don't deny that hard thumb ring has its own advantages I just can't really see it clearly enough to get convinced.
I changed to hard rings more than thirty years ago so my best guess is that i did to to experiment. When I learned more about making them, could make them more comfortable to shoot and faster than leather rings, but the techniques I learned with leather rings never left me and it informs the way I use metal, stone and horn rings.
The advantage I have using hard rings is that I have no callouses on the thumb or enlargement of the thumb, which were definitely developing when I was using leather rings.
Some people have commented, as in Saracen Archery, that it is odd that writers had not made much mention of the position of the string on the ring, but always referred to the thumb underneath. I believe this is because with a properly fitted ring there is little difference and it feels to the archer as if the string was lodged on the thumb rather than on the ring. It is subjective, but that is how it feels when the ring fits. Mustafa Kani was more specific, but he was writing in a time when many of the traditions had died out and the Sultan wanted his manual to help promote archery.
If you are comfortable with a leather guard, why change? If your thumb ring feels uncomfortable, maybe trying a leather one for a while will help you work out what's wrong. If you practice one style, there is no reason not to learn another one to expand your knowledge.
The advantage I have using hard rings is that I have no callouses on the thumb or enlargement of the thumb, which were definitely developing when I was using leather rings.
Some people have commented, as in Saracen Archery, that it is odd that writers had not made much mention of the position of the string on the ring, but always referred to the thumb underneath. I believe this is because with a properly fitted ring there is little difference and it feels to the archer as if the string was lodged on the thumb rather than on the ring. It is subjective, but that is how it feels when the ring fits. Mustafa Kani was more specific, but he was writing in a time when many of the traditions had died out and the Sultan wanted his manual to help promote archery.
If you are comfortable with a leather guard, why change? If your thumb ring feels uncomfortable, maybe trying a leather one for a while will help you work out what's wrong. If you practice one style, there is no reason not to learn another one to expand your knowledge.
According to old manuscipts, hard thumbrings (horn, stone, metal..) are better for arrow speed (i.e. flight archery) while leather thumb protectors are better for accuracy (i.e. military use).
personally I prefer a korean male (sugakji) horn thumbring for strong bows, because its so conveniant. however the nocking process is slower than in the normal thumbring.
a nice maneuver is to add a leather patch to a hard thumbring, though this is not historically correct afaik
:wink:
personally I prefer a korean male (sugakji) horn thumbring for strong bows, because its so conveniant. however the nocking process is slower than in the normal thumbring.
a nice maneuver is to add a leather patch to a hard thumbring, though this is not historically correct afaik
:wink:
@ Bede yes. Basically I wanted to expand my shooting knowledge and gain some insight from shooting with a hard ring. It feels that I can get a cleaner release from using the hard ring and some extra arrow velocity although I might just be thinking that as its a bit subjective ... Using a hard ring has slowed me down a bit and taught me to focus more on my shots as well and its improved my shooting with the glove, so it was worth it for that. But like Daniel I'm not totally convinced to switch completely.
Uli, Thanks for the historical insight it makes sense.
I already did what you mentioned and added a leather patch to the lip of the ring, basically turned the kulak over and glued it down :) I got the idea from watching Adam Radziun on a you tube clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q81H-V1_gGo
As you can see from the clip he appears to have glued some leather over the lip of a metal thumbring ( Grozer made I think ) for me it added some reassuring grip to my lock as it felt very unstable initially, caused me to misfire and worry about my draw which basically interfered with my accuracy. No problems since.
@ Daniel how did you solve your fishtailing ? I'm getting it occaisionally I think I'm applying to much pressure against the arrow with my index finger.
Uli, Thanks for the historical insight it makes sense.
I already did what you mentioned and added a leather patch to the lip of the ring, basically turned the kulak over and glued it down :) I got the idea from watching Adam Radziun on a you tube clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q81H-V1_gGo
As you can see from the clip he appears to have glued some leather over the lip of a metal thumbring ( Grozer made I think ) for me it added some reassuring grip to my lock as it felt very unstable initially, caused me to misfire and worry about my draw which basically interfered with my accuracy. No problems since.
@ Daniel how did you solve your fishtailing ? I'm getting it occaisionally I think I'm applying to much pressure against the arrow with my index finger.
I think leather lip linings in metal rings were very common for rings with straight or convex lips. The main utility is stopping the ring from moving on the finger between shots. Secondarily it makes it easy to keep the lip on the right part of the pad of the thumb.
I never glue down the protruding flap of the kulak. To put on the ring, I hold the flap and the lip with the thumb and index finger of the left hand and place it on the right thumb. Holding the flap down prevents the lining from getting caught and peeling off. When shooting, after years of trialling various positions for the string specifically either over or under the flap, I have come to the conclusion that there is no practical difference in arrow speed or accuracy. Certainly on a chronograph, I could not detect a difference. I can get the speed of the arrow down to the same speed in successive shots.
I never glue down the protruding flap of the kulak. To put on the ring, I hold the flap and the lip with the thumb and index finger of the left hand and place it on the right thumb. Holding the flap down prevents the lining from getting caught and peeling off. When shooting, after years of trialling various positions for the string specifically either over or under the flap, I have come to the conclusion that there is no practical difference in arrow speed or accuracy. Certainly on a chronograph, I could not detect a difference. I can get the speed of the arrow down to the same speed in successive shots.
I'm a complete beginner reading this and its still not clear to me (even from the video) where the bowstring sits. Is it on the edge of the ring and thus still touching the thumb or is it on the face of the ring (I've seen rings with a groove in them which I took to be for the bowstring)?
Can anyone direct me to a clear drawing or photo showing exactly where the string sits?
Can anyone direct me to a clear drawing or photo showing exactly where the string sits?
It depends on the type of thumb ring
Ken,
yes, if there is a groove, then it's for the string.
If there is no groove, then chances are the string is supposed to be on the rim of the circular opening for the thumb. (According to Bede, the string can also lie on the lip itself, but I cannot describe this properly because my lock looks different.)
Where the string ends up factually depends on the angle of your thumb to the middle finger (in the lock-position used to actually draw the string) and then on the angle of the ring's rim towards your thumb (seen from above, I hope it makes sense): In a ring without a groove, this last angle should be about 90?. Too much, and the string will slide into the thumb joint. Not enough, and it will try to slide off towards the lip, with predictable consequence.
It would be a good idea to buy Adam Swoboda's book. It contains lots of pics and analytical, explanatory text that should answer a lot of your questions.
yes, if there is a groove, then it's for the string.
If there is no groove, then chances are the string is supposed to be on the rim of the circular opening for the thumb. (According to Bede, the string can also lie on the lip itself, but I cannot describe this properly because my lock looks different.)
Where the string ends up factually depends on the angle of your thumb to the middle finger (in the lock-position used to actually draw the string) and then on the angle of the ring's rim towards your thumb (seen from above, I hope it makes sense): In a ring without a groove, this last angle should be about 90?. Too much, and the string will slide into the thumb joint. Not enough, and it will try to slide off towards the lip, with predictable consequence.
It would be a good idea to buy Adam Swoboda's book. It contains lots of pics and analytical, explanatory text that should answer a lot of your questions.
I agree with everyone above, if something works well already do not change it. Unless to learn if you can achieve something greater. Leather rings are more accurate in my opinion because they allow a quicker release but for some reason the hard rings feel very mechanical and they too can be accurate if you have perfect technique. At the same time, depending on the ring, it can impede drawing and nocking speed, since Korean style thumbrings' long lips often get in the way and the short, angular Turco-Persian rings are optimal for speed shooting in my opinion.
Lukas novotny made my Turkish style ring with leather glued on the inside the same way as that Polish guy's ring is in the above cited Youtube video.
I cannot wear it anymore (it fits on my weak hand) but it was very comfortable while I used it several years ago. Now I use a very big clunky Korean-style ring from Lancaster archery which Lukas novotny glued a piece of leather in for me, and a plastic ring that I got for 4 dollars from Justin Ma of Cinnabar Bows...I grinded the interior of the plastic ring to make it more circular than oval on the inside, because the inside of the lip dug into my finger. Now it works great and I draw quicker and nock quicker with that one than my Korean horn ring.
But all in all, a more experienced archer, or one who desires quicker speed would naturally enjoy a more angled ring with a short lip since it never interferes with nocking as bigger ones do...this is the kind that I need to get again.
Here is a pic of Lukas' ring I once used.
Lukas novotny made my Turkish style ring with leather glued on the inside the same way as that Polish guy's ring is in the above cited Youtube video.
I cannot wear it anymore (it fits on my weak hand) but it was very comfortable while I used it several years ago. Now I use a very big clunky Korean-style ring from Lancaster archery which Lukas novotny glued a piece of leather in for me, and a plastic ring that I got for 4 dollars from Justin Ma of Cinnabar Bows...I grinded the interior of the plastic ring to make it more circular than oval on the inside, because the inside of the lip dug into my finger. Now it works great and I draw quicker and nock quicker with that one than my Korean horn ring.
But all in all, a more experienced archer, or one who desires quicker speed would naturally enjoy a more angled ring with a short lip since it never interferes with nocking as bigger ones do...this is the kind that I need to get again.
Here is a pic of Lukas' ring I once used.
Justin sells the best plastic rings I have seen. Most people I have seen shoot with one have been very happy with the draw and the arrows take off smoothly.
I have just fitted a leather kulak to one of the brass enamelled rings being sold out of Turkey. The ring shot very well, though like all rings with pointed tips positioning during the draw is important. With a bad starting position, the tip of the lip can dig into the pad of the thumb on release.
Another note on using leather inserts: after a year or so on use they can become very hard so it is wise to replace them every so often. Since they are used for three main purposes, to improve the fit of the ring, to stop the ring sliding around, and to make a rounded surface on the inner edge of the lip of the ring, it is important that the leather be in good condition.
Regarding grooves in thumb ring lips, there have been several periods when they have been common. The earliest thumb ring has one (Fu Hao's ring of the Shang Dynasty c. 1100 BCE) and they were known from the 7th through 14th century in the Middle East (the Fustat ring is the earliest and there are several from Afghanistan in the Timurid Period). The grooves and bumps on these rings are clearly for the string. I have a nineteenth century Korean ring with a scratched groove that is for showing where the string should lie, but it is no thicker than a thread and would not hold the string. There is another class of Korean ring that has a definite indentation for the string at the base of the lip.
I have just fitted a leather kulak to one of the brass enamelled rings being sold out of Turkey. The ring shot very well, though like all rings with pointed tips positioning during the draw is important. With a bad starting position, the tip of the lip can dig into the pad of the thumb on release.
Another note on using leather inserts: after a year or so on use they can become very hard so it is wise to replace them every so often. Since they are used for three main purposes, to improve the fit of the ring, to stop the ring sliding around, and to make a rounded surface on the inner edge of the lip of the ring, it is important that the leather be in good condition.
Regarding grooves in thumb ring lips, there have been several periods when they have been common. The earliest thumb ring has one (Fu Hao's ring of the Shang Dynasty c. 1100 BCE) and they were known from the 7th through 14th century in the Middle East (the Fustat ring is the earliest and there are several from Afghanistan in the Timurid Period). The grooves and bumps on these rings are clearly for the string. I have a nineteenth century Korean ring with a scratched groove that is for showing where the string should lie, but it is no thicker than a thread and would not hold the string. There is another class of Korean ring that has a definite indentation for the string at the base of the lip.
I've ordered the book. The Cinnabar video, though, is excellent - the best pictorial info I've seen on the use of the thumbring. I will certainly buy from them.
Does anyone have any experience of their mariner bows?
Does anyone have any experience of their mariner bows?
I'm a beginner thumbring archer since Sept 2014. I prefer Manchu/cylindrical thumb ring as it's easy to make one from 3/4" PVC or bamboo. PVC are more reliable, bamboo will crack and break after few hundred shot using my Samick SKB 60# bow.
[external image]
[external image]
[external image]
[external image]
[external image]
![[external image]](https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-yERYNm2WEPg/VCvWipJw9FI/AAAAAAAAKmk/nn3JlX-Cgx4/w727-h545-no/IMG_20141001_181743.jpg){kind=link}
[external image]
![[external image]](https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-0h0DEzYZiTA/VDikVy3yq1I/AAAAAAAAKo0/eYgLOKRxV9M/w727-h545-no/IMG_20141011_111823.jpg){kind=link}
[external image]
![[external image]](https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-lF7yicxnuWo/VDXt7tWZDNI/AAAAAAAAKoI/6F-1N7LdH_s/w409-h545-no/IMG_20141008_190335.jpg){kind=link}
[external image]
![[external image]](https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-_DN80brH4BU/VDiEb5d-r_I/AAAAAAAAKok/MKIk9VPGR0M/w409-h545-no/IMG_20141011_091241.jpg){kind=link}
KEN: "Does anyone have any experience of their mariner bows?"
I have a Ming Moon 4, 60#@30" (at my draw length- Gui Shunxing optimistically marked it "69#@31"- a few lbs. over, and a good thing, too)
I also have a Saluki "Damascus", (41#@28") by Lukas Novotny.
The Mariner is almost as good as the Saluki- in fact, Gui has met & worked with Lukas on bowyery, so no surprise.
Attached are the two bows- Saluki on top, Ming beneath...
I have a Ming Moon 4, 60#@30" (at my draw length- Gui Shunxing optimistically marked it "69#@31"- a few lbs. over, and a good thing, too)
I also have a Saluki "Damascus", (41#@28") by Lukas Novotny.
The Mariner is almost as good as the Saluki- in fact, Gui has met & worked with Lukas on bowyery, so no surprise.
Attached are the two bows- Saluki on top, Ming beneath...