European WB horns
Hello friends,
I just received pair of horns of European water buffalo, female, from Elmedin in Sjenica. I am really not sure what to think. First, it is so twisted, second, it differs Asian buffalo and even if it is long enough for my purposes it is veeery narrow and i do not think i could get plate more than 3,1 cm. It looks totally different in the pictures. I would like to hear your opinion. I will not return horns back because it is privilege to have and to study them (very difficult to find them here). Anyone had experience with horn of European water buffalo? Could i correct twist anyhow? Thank you!!!
Best regards,
Zoran
*** 53 cm long along bottom side from base to tips, 3,5 cm rough width of the widest part,bumps only on the sides, natural convexity could be used, at least 40 cm or more could be usable for sure. It could give approx. 3 - 3,2 cm width and limbs should taper (i gonna use them for making replica of one of Serbian or Byzantine and Balkan bows in the future). The reason for narrowed down, shorter and not wide limbs of bows made in medieval Balkans (if they weren't mercenary bows as bow painted in Gračanica and St.Nikita monasteries show Mongol type bow, probably bow of Tatar mercenary in the service of Serbian King Milutin, or if ram's horn wasn't used as in this case and case of St.George's bow in Staro Nagoričane monastery) beside elasticity is availability of material as this pair of horns shows.
I just received pair of horns of European water buffalo, female, from Elmedin in Sjenica. I am really not sure what to think. First, it is so twisted, second, it differs Asian buffalo and even if it is long enough for my purposes it is veeery narrow and i do not think i could get plate more than 3,1 cm. It looks totally different in the pictures. I would like to hear your opinion. I will not return horns back because it is privilege to have and to study them (very difficult to find them here). Anyone had experience with horn of European water buffalo? Could i correct twist anyhow? Thank you!!!
Best regards,
Zoran
*** 53 cm long along bottom side from base to tips, 3,5 cm rough width of the widest part,bumps only on the sides, natural convexity could be used, at least 40 cm or more could be usable for sure. It could give approx. 3 - 3,2 cm width and limbs should taper (i gonna use them for making replica of one of Serbian or Byzantine and Balkan bows in the future). The reason for narrowed down, shorter and not wide limbs of bows made in medieval Balkans (if they weren't mercenary bows as bow painted in Gračanica and St.Nikita monasteries show Mongol type bow, probably bow of Tatar mercenary in the service of Serbian King Milutin, or if ram's horn wasn't used as in this case and case of St.George's bow in Staro Nagoričane monastery) beside elasticity is availability of material as this pair of horns shows.
Another view
Oh, cool! - but looks difficult. If you'd manage 3,1 cm width, then you should be okay. Remember that the horn does not need to be as wide as the core. Of course, you could also glue several narrow strips side by side.
Thanx Kviljo! You gave me a courage a lot! Horns are in perfect conditions and i edited my previous post giving dimensions. I am more relaxed after i introspected them carefully. After i cut them and process them into strips i will have answer. Horns are promising. It is worth to try.
Take care!
Take care!
Just male horns good for a long strip because those have different form.
Female horn is flat oval and have an "edge" on the back, male is triangular, so it have a flat side on the back.
Should take shorter plates or narow strips from this. Persian, hun or mongol bows made this way.
Should use the side too if cut lenghtwise.
Female horn is flat oval and have an "edge" on the back, male is triangular, so it have a flat side on the back.
Should take shorter plates or narow strips from this. Persian, hun or mongol bows made this way.
Should use the side too if cut lenghtwise.
Zoltan,
Do you also mean to use multiple strips to make one horn plate (the case of Persian bows)? k?sz?n?m!
Do you also mean to use multiple strips to make one horn plate (the case of Persian bows)? k?sz?n?m!
Yes
Several early mongolian bow made from short horn plates. Used what they could get.
Think not water buffalo but schould use that method.
Try to make two longer piece for the bending section and could use the shorter ones on the gripp cection and siyah joynery. This bows have short core and long wood ear with a horn insert at the end, but he same size like our bows 140cm ttt.
Just cut the ends staright on the plates.
Think the core have to pre bend before glueing and not reflexing whan the sinew work done. After tiller have to wrapp the whole limb with sinew.
I'm not shure the original method of the makeing :roll:
Working on a replika to find out more from this.
https://picasaweb.google.com/1136505987 ... 4254677250
The persian and khotan bows have parallel strips, not like on mongol bows.
Several early mongolian bow made from short horn plates. Used what they could get.
Think not water buffalo but schould use that method.
Try to make two longer piece for the bending section and could use the shorter ones on the gripp cection and siyah joynery. This bows have short core and long wood ear with a horn insert at the end, but he same size like our bows 140cm ttt.
Just cut the ends staright on the plates.
Think the core have to pre bend before glueing and not reflexing whan the sinew work done. After tiller have to wrapp the whole limb with sinew.
I'm not shure the original method of the makeing :roll:
Working on a replika to find out more from this.
https://picasaweb.google.com/1136505987 ... 4254677250
The persian and khotan bows have parallel strips, not like on mongol bows.
By cutting long narrow strips is is easier to straighten them individually and divide them up based on the original direction of twist. That way when you combine them you can oppose the original twists so that if they start to curve back to their original shape they will work against each other.
The solution of using short sections butted together is much more problematic since, as Adam Karpowicz pointed out in his book on Ottoman bows, they are more prone to breaking at the joints on the belly if they are bent wrongly or if the string breaks. Under those circumstances, it would not be a good bow for war or hunting. I have seen Mebert bows made that way which survived over 50 years of careful use as target bows, but they eventually broke at a join in the horn despite sinew wrappings.
Looking at the bows from Mongolia studied in the Journal from Bonn, it looks like the solution was to make bows with the shortest proportion of horn possible. The ear to limb joints are moved into the bending limb and covered with horn. The horn is roughly 30 cm long and also covers the grip splices up to the full thickness of the grip. A piece of horn or bone is used to bridge the grip between to the two limb sections of horn. The joints between them lie on the non bending part of the grip.
The Chinese encyclopaedia of the Ming refers to the Northern Barbarians using four smaller pieces of horn because they could not get the larger horns found in China.
The solution of using short sections butted together is much more problematic since, as Adam Karpowicz pointed out in his book on Ottoman bows, they are more prone to breaking at the joints on the belly if they are bent wrongly or if the string breaks. Under those circumstances, it would not be a good bow for war or hunting. I have seen Mebert bows made that way which survived over 50 years of careful use as target bows, but they eventually broke at a join in the horn despite sinew wrappings.
Looking at the bows from Mongolia studied in the Journal from Bonn, it looks like the solution was to make bows with the shortest proportion of horn possible. The ear to limb joints are moved into the bending limb and covered with horn. The horn is roughly 30 cm long and also covers the grip splices up to the full thickness of the grip. A piece of horn or bone is used to bridge the grip between to the two limb sections of horn. The joints between them lie on the non bending part of the grip.
The Chinese encyclopaedia of the Ming refers to the Northern Barbarians using four smaller pieces of horn because they could not get the larger horns found in China.
Thank you Bede! When you've mentioned Encyclopaedia from Ming dinasty did you mean report of Sun Yung - Hsing where he described that Northern Barbarians had to use 4 pieces of sheep horn? I know this detail from McEwen's work.
Best regards,
Best regards,