About the tillering of a horn bow
Folks:
Recently I have got all the informations I need for making a Crab bow from one of my friends. Including its length proportion of each sections, angles, Xsection, thickness and broadness,Which mean I am going to start a crab bow... By studing the data I found one thing,which is tillering a finished crab bow is almost impossible,in other words, it is unnecessary to tiller a horn bow when done...That is pretty much match my experience of horn bow building...(Stephen,the bow in the clip I sent you was never tillered after done,it bend perfectly though I can't shoot very well,my right hand after releasing is terrible).
Allow me to explain my points; A crab bow is a kind of bow with very broad and thin horn strips which has almost no margin for further scraping,furthermore a finished bow belly will be covered by sinew as well that makes it impossible to tillering when done....Well!! does a horn bow needs to be tillered?? YES!! of course! but my experience is to tiller it during... It all started from the moment that the horns have been selected. Select two piece pf horns with roughly same length in their solid areas and check their stiffness to match a good pair. After attaching on the core, carefully filing the horn and core to the same thickness on both sides as possible.... When first layer of sinew has been applied and dried,the bow then bend toward the back. At this moment check the shape and curve on both side,tillering by scraping horn (very little) to have the curves looks even.. Of course the amount of sinew applied on both sides also have to be even... Then the second sinew applied and dried, bend the bow even more and tillering the bow to have it looks even.(If it is even just no need to do it). Finally a bow will be like a circle or a prezle.. After seasoning the bow must be open and strung for the very first time(The bow has to be "SET" in old Chinese text). It is criticle,Since so much have been carefully done during the process...Craefully place the teplik on the limb and string it. A bow been string for the very first time tend to be very unstable,cause not all the functional sinew has been stretched,some times one side is stretched prior to the other,and that will cause uneven on two limbs and go flip-flop. Adjust it with or without heat and allows it to be strung for about 12 hours to a day. Unstring let it rest for a day then string again. Repeat the process until the bow is stable. Naturally one side of the limb will be slightly stronger then the other,now you can decide the upper and lower limbs.
From my experience if doing right a bow will be in the adjustable range. Finally pull the bow and check the bend and twist. If that comes out OK you have made a good bow, If not you then have a bad bow for not doing a good job in the process(Then! this bow must be "tillered" to correct the mistake,It gonna turn out to be an UGLY bow anyways ). And if it is off too much, better throw it away.
Correct me if I'm not correct, Oh! by the way! if anyone like to see my clip please e-mail me and i'll send it to you (about 4.5M in its size) :D
Recently I have got all the informations I need for making a Crab bow from one of my friends. Including its length proportion of each sections, angles, Xsection, thickness and broadness,Which mean I am going to start a crab bow... By studing the data I found one thing,which is tillering a finished crab bow is almost impossible,in other words, it is unnecessary to tiller a horn bow when done...That is pretty much match my experience of horn bow building...(Stephen,the bow in the clip I sent you was never tillered after done,it bend perfectly though I can't shoot very well,my right hand after releasing is terrible).
Allow me to explain my points; A crab bow is a kind of bow with very broad and thin horn strips which has almost no margin for further scraping,furthermore a finished bow belly will be covered by sinew as well that makes it impossible to tillering when done....Well!! does a horn bow needs to be tillered?? YES!! of course! but my experience is to tiller it during... It all started from the moment that the horns have been selected. Select two piece pf horns with roughly same length in their solid areas and check their stiffness to match a good pair. After attaching on the core, carefully filing the horn and core to the same thickness on both sides as possible.... When first layer of sinew has been applied and dried,the bow then bend toward the back. At this moment check the shape and curve on both side,tillering by scraping horn (very little) to have the curves looks even.. Of course the amount of sinew applied on both sides also have to be even... Then the second sinew applied and dried, bend the bow even more and tillering the bow to have it looks even.(If it is even just no need to do it). Finally a bow will be like a circle or a prezle.. After seasoning the bow must be open and strung for the very first time(The bow has to be "SET" in old Chinese text). It is criticle,Since so much have been carefully done during the process...Craefully place the teplik on the limb and string it. A bow been string for the very first time tend to be very unstable,cause not all the functional sinew has been stretched,some times one side is stretched prior to the other,and that will cause uneven on two limbs and go flip-flop. Adjust it with or without heat and allows it to be strung for about 12 hours to a day. Unstring let it rest for a day then string again. Repeat the process until the bow is stable. Naturally one side of the limb will be slightly stronger then the other,now you can decide the upper and lower limbs.
From my experience if doing right a bow will be in the adjustable range. Finally pull the bow and check the bend and twist. If that comes out OK you have made a good bow, If not you then have a bad bow for not doing a good job in the process(Then! this bow must be "tillered" to correct the mistake,It gonna turn out to be an UGLY bow anyways ). And if it is off too much, better throw it away.
Correct me if I'm not correct, Oh! by the way! if anyone like to see my clip please e-mail me and i'll send it to you (about 4.5M in its size) :D
There are something more I want to mention. Basiclly, tillering a bow when done(?) is an idea comes from wood bow construction. Is it done?? NO!! Acturally It is also tillered during.... After tillering it is considered done!!(I wonder how many got my point)... A horn bow are different story.
I mentioned about in the SETTING process of a horn bow, the bow was strung for the very first time,in many cases it appears to be big time "unbalance". And if you "Tiller" the bow by scraping horn out at this moment..... IT IS A DISASTER !!!! When the bow relexed and strung the second time...Then you find the bow was "Over tillered"... Then you tiller the other side....
I collect antique bows(mostly Chinese), and I tell you the horn belly of those antique are all smooth and perfectly rounder, no sign of "tillering" after done.... Well! here are some modern "K" horn bows,when you look at their horn belly, there are "speed bumps". 8) No comment for this!! Someone will get upset......
I mentioned about in the SETTING process of a horn bow, the bow was strung for the very first time,in many cases it appears to be big time "unbalance". And if you "Tiller" the bow by scraping horn out at this moment..... IT IS A DISASTER !!!! When the bow relexed and strung the second time...Then you find the bow was "Over tillered"... Then you tiller the other side....
I collect antique bows(mostly Chinese), and I tell you the horn belly of those antique are all smooth and perfectly rounder, no sign of "tillering" after done.... Well! here are some modern "K" horn bows,when you look at their horn belly, there are "speed bumps". 8) No comment for this!! Someone will get upset......
Yokhua
I have seen pictures of horn bowyers tillering a horn bow with rasp and scraper, the bow was braced at the time. I am sure there is more than one way of tillering a horn bow. What you describe is reverse tillering and is not a very accurate way of tillering a bow, good for getting you close though.
I have seen pictures of horn bowyers tillering a horn bow with rasp and scraper, the bow was braced at the time. I am sure there is more than one way of tillering a horn bow. What you describe is reverse tillering and is not a very accurate way of tillering a bow, good for getting you close though.
Marc:
There is no such thing called "accurate" tillering in horn bow..... I don't know how much of your experience about horn bow...
horn bows are some kind of bows with "temper" or "Mood" allow me to say so!!
Each horn bow have its own propensity,that is in general... The very same bow will behave differently each time you use it...Cause by humidity,temperature or other reasons I don't know... The condition of a bow varied... Heat and adjust it to its premium condition is vital.... A bow seems to be "unbalanced"(of course not too much) in the eyes of a wood bow builder can be heated and adjusted to you called perfect "Tillering"...
I'll send you my clip and you can see for yourself.
Yuhua
There is no such thing called "accurate" tillering in horn bow..... I don't know how much of your experience about horn bow...
horn bows are some kind of bows with "temper" or "Mood" allow me to say so!!
Each horn bow have its own propensity,that is in general... The very same bow will behave differently each time you use it...Cause by humidity,temperature or other reasons I don't know... The condition of a bow varied... Heat and adjust it to its premium condition is vital.... A bow seems to be "unbalanced"(of course not too much) in the eyes of a wood bow builder can be heated and adjusted to you called perfect "Tillering"...
I'll send you my clip and you can see for yourself.
Yuhua
By the way Marc:
I do know what you have said about horn bowyers tillering a horn bow with rasp and scraper.. Well !! every modern bowyers who claimed they can build horn bows do so...Yes! this is a way to do the job,but the second best.
suppose you have the skill and perfect sence to build a horn bow, that bow when the first time you open and string it(like I have said:string it for a while and unstring and string it.....until stable), it is balanced, no twist and bend in perfect profile(Or maybe a little bit of heat and adjustment).....Do you need to "Tillering" it ???
Tillering a horn bow with rasp and scraper after is the second best way: To correct the mistake!! For a horn bow will need to be adjusted for future use anyways, no matter how you tillered...It is the nature of horn bows..... Very Very different from wood bows...
Yuhua
I do know what you have said about horn bowyers tillering a horn bow with rasp and scraper.. Well !! every modern bowyers who claimed they can build horn bows do so...Yes! this is a way to do the job,but the second best.
suppose you have the skill and perfect sence to build a horn bow, that bow when the first time you open and string it(like I have said:string it for a while and unstring and string it.....until stable), it is balanced, no twist and bend in perfect profile(Or maybe a little bit of heat and adjustment).....Do you need to "Tillering" it ???
Tillering a horn bow with rasp and scraper after is the second best way: To correct the mistake!! For a horn bow will need to be adjusted for future use anyways, no matter how you tillered...It is the nature of horn bows..... Very Very different from wood bows...
Yuhua
yokhua
I know what you mean about being tempermental. Sinew backed bows can be like that as well. The pictures I was refering to were of a seasoned horn bowyer that has built many horn bows.
I know what you mean about being tempermental. Sinew backed bows can be like that as well. The pictures I was refering to were of a seasoned horn bowyer that has built many horn bows.
Rapsod:
I'll organize those data and draw a sketch,then post here for everyone who interested......SOON!!
Yuhua
I'll organize those data and draw a sketch,then post here for everyone who interested......SOON!!
Yuhua
What to say?
YAHOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
YAHOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
Yokhua:
It is true that the bows should be exactlly symmetrical and all components have exacly the same thickness and width. Then the bow needs very little tillering at the end.
However, the Turks did use a rasp and even an adze to tiller finished bows.
Adam
It is true that the bows should be exactlly symmetrical and all components have exacly the same thickness and width. Then the bow needs very little tillering at the end.
However, the Turks did use a rasp and even an adze to tiller finished bows.
Adam
Yokhua,
I have seen Turkish bows adjusted with a rasp as Adam wrote. Do either of you have an opinion on why it was done? It looks to me like old bows were readjusted to lighten the limbs and reduce the handle width.
I saw quite a few bows like this in the Grayson Collection. Some were dated in the mid-18th and early nineteenth centuries. Changing the handle cross section might have been done to make it easier to use a mushamma on bows with larger grips. Lightening the limbs in the non-bending areas might have reduced their inertia and allowed them to spring back at a speed closer to their natural frequency (Adam, I read your article).
Some of the bows I had seen had originally been decorated on the belly horn so they were probably already tillered and set up before they were rasped and altered.
I have seen Turkish bows adjusted with a rasp as Adam wrote. Do either of you have an opinion on why it was done? It looks to me like old bows were readjusted to lighten the limbs and reduce the handle width.
I saw quite a few bows like this in the Grayson Collection. Some were dated in the mid-18th and early nineteenth centuries. Changing the handle cross section might have been done to make it easier to use a mushamma on bows with larger grips. Lightening the limbs in the non-bending areas might have reduced their inertia and allowed them to spring back at a speed closer to their natural frequency (Adam, I read your article).
Some of the bows I had seen had originally been decorated on the belly horn so they were probably already tillered and set up before they were rasped and altered.
I undestand Yokhua is talking about freshly seasoned, never tiller bows. I am sure used, older bows would be re-adjusted and re-tillered endlessly to fit a new owner. Or an owner weakened by age...
It is indeed odd, sometimes it can take weeks to tiller a bow for no apparent reason. Tillering is the only element of art in making a hornbow, I think.
Adam
It is indeed odd, sometimes it can take weeks to tiller a bow for no apparent reason. Tillering is the only element of art in making a hornbow, I think.
Adam
:D YOKHUA,
When you said Crab bow, did you mean Crab leg or KAIYUAN BOW. iF you did mean it i am very very impressed by your efforts and interested for the construction of this bow. Only pictures on crab leg bows i`ve seen are, one from ``WU BEI ZHI``, military enciclopeadia by Mao Yuanyi(XVIIc., i`ve seen it thanks to Stephen,and first man who indicated it to me is ZAZO from Alberta), and several from the Serbian medieval mural painting, some of them people can see in letter for june 2004. that Stephen published. These horn bows have double curved syiahs and appears at Serbian frescoes at the end of XIV and beginning with the XV century. Perhaps this kind of the bow entered Serbian army through Eastern Turkish mercenaries at the end of XIII and beginning with the XIV century because serbian rulers used french and german mercenaries later on, but in other hand crab leg bows appears in the time of Ottoman turkish conquests...In the future i would like to try with crab leg bow, Yokhua can you explain to me something about siyahs of crab leg bow. And what grabbed my attention is effectiveness of ``serbian`` or any crab leg bow if their limbs are tapered toward the end. Yokhua i would like to read your short explanation on the syiahs for crab bow if it`s possible.
Also i am very interested in literature on the construction of the crab leg bow (russian, german, specially english, or french or italian).
Bede, Jack Farell and other could you help me....
Warmest regards
Zoran Alexandar Pavlovic
p.s. Rapsod, sta ti je bilo da se tako potpises, i gde ti je ono Ko ne stoji u mraku ne vidi svijetlost ili tako nesto, nekako nisam navikao bez tog komentara, bio je simpatican...
8)
When you said Crab bow, did you mean Crab leg or KAIYUAN BOW. iF you did mean it i am very very impressed by your efforts and interested for the construction of this bow. Only pictures on crab leg bows i`ve seen are, one from ``WU BEI ZHI``, military enciclopeadia by Mao Yuanyi(XVIIc., i`ve seen it thanks to Stephen,and first man who indicated it to me is ZAZO from Alberta), and several from the Serbian medieval mural painting, some of them people can see in letter for june 2004. that Stephen published. These horn bows have double curved syiahs and appears at Serbian frescoes at the end of XIV and beginning with the XV century. Perhaps this kind of the bow entered Serbian army through Eastern Turkish mercenaries at the end of XIII and beginning with the XIV century because serbian rulers used french and german mercenaries later on, but in other hand crab leg bows appears in the time of Ottoman turkish conquests...In the future i would like to try with crab leg bow, Yokhua can you explain to me something about siyahs of crab leg bow. And what grabbed my attention is effectiveness of ``serbian`` or any crab leg bow if their limbs are tapered toward the end. Yokhua i would like to read your short explanation on the syiahs for crab bow if it`s possible.
Also i am very interested in literature on the construction of the crab leg bow (russian, german, specially english, or french or italian).
Bede, Jack Farell and other could you help me....
Warmest regards
Zoran Alexandar Pavlovic
p.s. Rapsod, sta ti je bilo da se tako potpises, i gde ti je ono Ko ne stoji u mraku ne vidi svijetlost ili tako nesto, nekako nisam navikao bez tog komentara, bio je simpatican...
8)
Zoran; I also eagerly await Yokhua's illustration of crab bow construction. I can only imagine that this information is from one of the principals at Ft. Dodge. This person described to a group of us how he cut up an old Mugal bow and that we might be surprised what it was that he found. A diagram was promised but did not materialize.
Stephen reccomended Indian Archery by G.N.Pant. Pages 122 and 123 show excellent construction details taken from an old bow. Try to get this book if Mughal archery is your passion. In my humble opinion, an Indian bow was not inferior to a Turkish one.
This is one of my bows displayed at a local university. There is good reason to believe that this bow has never been strung. Look closely and you may see that the notches have never been cut into the siyahs. There is a cryptic inscription worked into the design. It is, as yet, undecyphered. -j-
Stephen reccomended Indian Archery by G.N.Pant. Pages 122 and 123 show excellent construction details taken from an old bow. Try to get this book if Mughal archery is your passion. In my humble opinion, an Indian bow was not inferior to a Turkish one.
This is one of my bows displayed at a local university. There is good reason to believe that this bow has never been strung. Look closely and you may see that the notches have never been cut into the siyahs. There is a cryptic inscription worked into the design. It is, as yet, undecyphered. -j-
Zoran, can you post a picture of your "crab leg bow"? I have a feeling it may not be the crab bow from India.
My crab bow looks just like Jack's. I have almost finished an exact replica of it, will turn out probably around 90lb. I saw a cut up bow like that - the horn layer is very thin, but sinew very thick, and the limbs are covered on all sides with sinew laid lenghtwise (although the bend can be wrapped diagonally for strenth too). I found on my bow a thick layer of glue on top of sinew, then layers of paint (no bark). I wrote an article about it for JSAA a while back.
The bow is very difficult to string due to the serius bending in the limbs - the string does not contact the ridged sections (loops' knots touch the base of tips only).
Adam
My crab bow looks just like Jack's. I have almost finished an exact replica of it, will turn out probably around 90lb. I saw a cut up bow like that - the horn layer is very thin, but sinew very thick, and the limbs are covered on all sides with sinew laid lenghtwise (although the bend can be wrapped diagonally for strenth too). I found on my bow a thick layer of glue on top of sinew, then layers of paint (no bark). I wrote an article about it for JSAA a while back.
The bow is very difficult to string due to the serius bending in the limbs - the string does not contact the ridged sections (loops' knots touch the base of tips only).
Adam
JACK,
What to say about your own bow...wonderful!!!! I`ve seen similar bow in Early Bow Design and Construction article by McEwen, Miller and Bergman, i guess this bow could be Indian crab bow, regarding the rigid ends of the bow. Only article about Indian bow i got is The Composite bow in India by Murray B. Emeneau, but nothin` about crab bow in this article. My passion is not Mugal archery because i think that`s no relevant for my research about the presence and use of the composite bows in Serbia, specially ``crab leg`` bows, `cause rigid ends or syiahs of these bows are too short to be related for Indian origins, as i said syiahs of these bows looks like syiahs of chinese kaiyuan bow from WU BEI Zhi enciclopedia, and as Stephen once said similar bows were popular in the Turkish controlled areas north of Black Sea called ``Tatar` region.Jack, have you ever tried to ``open`` your wonderful crab bow?
ADAM,
You`re right, crab leg bows from serbian medieval mural painting are not in Indian style, i said rigid ends are too short, and in fact ``serbian`` bows looks like accomplished form of asiatic bows, specially i could noticed byzantine influences and in some cases magyar or turkish, but every bow have similar characteristics, they are tapered toward the end, you could notice very clear difference between every part of the bow, syiahs are not too long as in mongol, or magyar bows nor too short like in turkish(in earlier representations), common stuff is that back of the bows is covered by some dimly material, more than likely by leather, and grip is, where it`s visible,probably shod, reinforced by metal. Adam, i have never built crab leg bow but i could post some picture where crab leg bow appears, i bet i cannot post these pictures in this forum, but i`ll post it at your private e mail if you allow to me.
Warmest regards to all of yours
Zoran Alexandar Pavlovic
:D
What to say about your own bow...wonderful!!!! I`ve seen similar bow in Early Bow Design and Construction article by McEwen, Miller and Bergman, i guess this bow could be Indian crab bow, regarding the rigid ends of the bow. Only article about Indian bow i got is The Composite bow in India by Murray B. Emeneau, but nothin` about crab bow in this article. My passion is not Mugal archery because i think that`s no relevant for my research about the presence and use of the composite bows in Serbia, specially ``crab leg`` bows, `cause rigid ends or syiahs of these bows are too short to be related for Indian origins, as i said syiahs of these bows looks like syiahs of chinese kaiyuan bow from WU BEI Zhi enciclopedia, and as Stephen once said similar bows were popular in the Turkish controlled areas north of Black Sea called ``Tatar` region.Jack, have you ever tried to ``open`` your wonderful crab bow?
ADAM,
You`re right, crab leg bows from serbian medieval mural painting are not in Indian style, i said rigid ends are too short, and in fact ``serbian`` bows looks like accomplished form of asiatic bows, specially i could noticed byzantine influences and in some cases magyar or turkish, but every bow have similar characteristics, they are tapered toward the end, you could notice very clear difference between every part of the bow, syiahs are not too long as in mongol, or magyar bows nor too short like in turkish(in earlier representations), common stuff is that back of the bows is covered by some dimly material, more than likely by leather, and grip is, where it`s visible,probably shod, reinforced by metal. Adam, i have never built crab leg bow but i could post some picture where crab leg bow appears, i bet i cannot post these pictures in this forum, but i`ll post it at your private e mail if you allow to me.
Warmest regards to all of yours
Zoran Alexandar Pavlovic
:D
Yokhua, could you send the picture of your crab bow to me?I would like to see it...
[email protected]
[email protected]
Yes Zoran, please send me the pictures. I am very interested what these bows look like.
Adam
Adam
Zoran,
some times ago somebody put on forum some pictures of fresco from Serbian churchs.
Are you writing abaut similar bows like those from frescos?
I can't find it in forum archive :(
Very similar bows are shown in frescos in late 14th C. chappel in Lublin
Andrzej
some times ago somebody put on forum some pictures of fresco from Serbian churchs.
Are you writing abaut similar bows like those from frescos?
I can't find it in forum archive :(
Very similar bows are shown in frescos in late 14th C. chappel in Lublin
Andrzej
Here they are:Andrzej Abratowski wrote:
Zoran,
some times ago somebody put on forum some pictures of fresco from Serbian churchs.
Are you writing abaut similar bows like those from frescos?
I can't find it in forum archive :(
Very similar bows are shown in frescos in late 14th C. chappel in Lublin
Andrzej
http://www.atarn.org/letters/ltr_jun04.htm
Thanks Stephen for the link.
Zoran, the "crab-leg" bow on the picture may be a stylized (and exaggerated) representation of a Turkish style bow. There were bows with a sharp angle at the kasan/sal transition. When strung, the bows would have the crab-leg bow shape. I think I saw pictures of such bows in a JSAA article about Turkish bows in Italian collections.
Adam
Zoran, the "crab-leg" bow on the picture may be a stylized (and exaggerated) representation of a Turkish style bow. There were bows with a sharp angle at the kasan/sal transition. When strung, the bows would have the crab-leg bow shape. I think I saw pictures of such bows in a JSAA article about Turkish bows in Italian collections.
Adam
Adam:
You are right about it. Here is an example of a bow with angle like crab bow
Jang,Yuhua
You are right about it. Here is an example of a bow with angle like crab bow
Jang,Yuhua
Here is another view of this bow
ANDRZEJ,
Thank you very much for the information about frescoe from the chappel in Lublin. I would like to see it. i had a chance to visit polish site Czas luku, regarding that i am Slav it`s not too difficult to understand contents, but i have never seen any of medieval polish composite bows(off course reflex bows were known to Polish army owing to vicinity of Magyars, Tatars...), but if the bow from the chappel looks like those ones from serbian monasteries this should means that this kind of the bow was wide spreaded across Europe in that time. Mural painting of Serbia and Macedonia, regardless its own religious character, provides mostly of the materials for research on weapons and military equipment in the time of political independence and kept basic characteristics of orthodox christian iconography.But with economic and political rise of the state, more and more, interest for martial life became intensive, and profane elements from everyday life, like weapons or dress entered mural painting. It`s entirely possible to do reconstruction of physiognomy of numerous kinds of weapons.Andrzej, I would like to know more about the bows of Polish medieval army, and i am in doubt have composite bows used in later period, in the time of Polish-Lithuanian union. Please, can you suggest some literature on composite bows among West Salvs to me(or old slavonic wooden self bows)?Also, i am eager to see the bow from Lublin chappel...
ADAM,
You could be right regarding your opinion that ``crab leg`` may be stylized representation because mural painters were not often quit precise like in the case of painting of other weapons, say swords, daggers, shields. For example It`s almost impossible to define any cross section of the siyahs(or USHI, USHICE LUKA). But, grip of the bow(i do mean bow of Warrior saint(or unknown landlord) from the monastery Veluce, black white photograph) is pretty visible and i am in doubt is it realy representation of turkish bow. I have an picture of warrior saint with extremly short bow whose grip looks like turkish and it could be stylized representation of turkish bow(of course ``crab``), i`ll post it to you. Otherwise, RO?ANAC (it was term used in medieval Serbia and specially in Croatia and means hornbow)was used in South East Europe(Serbia, Bulgaria,Romania...) in medieval times and main characteristic is its own variety...Oriental type quivers called TUL or TULAICA(medieval term) were decorated very rich...Adam, how to see mentioned pictures of Turkish bows from italian collection.Also, i saw your last nice article in ATARN, the bow is very similar like wonderful bow of Yokhua, but i would say that`s replica of Turkish infantry bow, am i right?
Warmest regards to all of yours
Zoran Alexandar Pavlovic
:D
Thank you very much for the information about frescoe from the chappel in Lublin. I would like to see it. i had a chance to visit polish site Czas luku, regarding that i am Slav it`s not too difficult to understand contents, but i have never seen any of medieval polish composite bows(off course reflex bows were known to Polish army owing to vicinity of Magyars, Tatars...), but if the bow from the chappel looks like those ones from serbian monasteries this should means that this kind of the bow was wide spreaded across Europe in that time. Mural painting of Serbia and Macedonia, regardless its own religious character, provides mostly of the materials for research on weapons and military equipment in the time of political independence and kept basic characteristics of orthodox christian iconography.But with economic and political rise of the state, more and more, interest for martial life became intensive, and profane elements from everyday life, like weapons or dress entered mural painting. It`s entirely possible to do reconstruction of physiognomy of numerous kinds of weapons.Andrzej, I would like to know more about the bows of Polish medieval army, and i am in doubt have composite bows used in later period, in the time of Polish-Lithuanian union. Please, can you suggest some literature on composite bows among West Salvs to me(or old slavonic wooden self bows)?Also, i am eager to see the bow from Lublin chappel...
ADAM,
You could be right regarding your opinion that ``crab leg`` may be stylized representation because mural painters were not often quit precise like in the case of painting of other weapons, say swords, daggers, shields. For example It`s almost impossible to define any cross section of the siyahs(or USHI, USHICE LUKA). But, grip of the bow(i do mean bow of Warrior saint(or unknown landlord) from the monastery Veluce, black white photograph) is pretty visible and i am in doubt is it realy representation of turkish bow. I have an picture of warrior saint with extremly short bow whose grip looks like turkish and it could be stylized representation of turkish bow(of course ``crab``), i`ll post it to you. Otherwise, RO?ANAC (it was term used in medieval Serbia and specially in Croatia and means hornbow)was used in South East Europe(Serbia, Bulgaria,Romania...) in medieval times and main characteristic is its own variety...Oriental type quivers called TUL or TULAICA(medieval term) were decorated very rich...Adam, how to see mentioned pictures of Turkish bows from italian collection.Also, i saw your last nice article in ATARN, the bow is very similar like wonderful bow of Yokhua, but i would say that`s replica of Turkish infantry bow, am i right?
Warmest regards to all of yours
Zoran Alexandar Pavlovic
:D
YOKHUA,
THANK YOU FOR THE PICTURES!!!!WONDERFUL CRAB BOW!!!!
ZORAN ALEXANDAR :D
THANK YOU FOR THE PICTURES!!!!WONDERFUL CRAB BOW!!!!
ZORAN ALEXANDAR :D
I think you are right, adam. The crab-leg bow and the crab bow are two different things. There is a Mogul bow with a curve between the ridged section ond the ear and also a curve between the base of the ridged section and the bending part of the limb. This is closer to the kaiyuan in the encyclopaedia.
I am not saying that they are not historically related, I think they are. I believe they are both related to the Yuan dynasty Mongol bow morpholgically though their construction methods were possibly different.
This is why I am so fascinated by the continuing archaeological discoveries in north west China and Mongolia. Look at the Omnogorov bow for instance.
I have reexamined the Serbian paintings and it looks like several different styles of bows are represented. I would like to point out some interesting details.
Though later Krim Tatar bows show strong Turkish influence in their construction and the shape of the transition from bending limb to siyah, perhaps early bows were closer to the Mongol pattern. This specualtive and based on artworks which everyone agrees are unreliable, but I think it is a good place to start a discussion.
I am not saying that they are not historically related, I think they are. I believe they are both related to the Yuan dynasty Mongol bow morpholgically though their construction methods were possibly different.
This is why I am so fascinated by the continuing archaeological discoveries in north west China and Mongolia. Look at the Omnogorov bow for instance.
I have reexamined the Serbian paintings and it looks like several different styles of bows are represented. I would like to point out some interesting details.
- The first painting of St Prokopje has several features.
The bow has white siyahs like the one in the painting of Qubilai Khan hunting.
The limbs of the bow are tied in the same way as the bow in the Qubilai Khan painting.
The quiver is a closed type with a side hinged opening which type is shown in Ilkhanid paintings made shortly after the Mongol conquest of Iran.
The second painting of St Nikita has several quiver details that are interesting.
The quiver is a closed quiver with a side-opening cover. It is not shown worn in a realistic manner.
The majority of arrows are point up, but one has been thrust in the opposite direction.
This arrow has a large nock and fletching carried right up to the start of the swelling of the nock.
The third painting of St Dejan shows a poorly drawn bow, but with an interesting shape.
The artist made no attempt to show the three-dimentional shape of the bow.
The string is randomly placed in relation to the bow tips.
The bow has a pronounced shoulder at the base of the ridged section.
The ear is at an angle to the ridged section.
The fourth painting of a saint shows several features seen in depictions of Mongols.
Two arrows are in the bow case. This practice is shown in a Chinese painting of a Mongol hunter in the Musee Guimet. The recently used arrows were put in the bow case before they were cleaned and returned to the quiver.
The two arrows have fletching and nock shaopes similar to ones in a quiver in Poland belonging to a Krim Tatar Khan of the seventeenth century.
This saint is using an open quiver, unlike the first two.
Though later Krim Tatar bows show strong Turkish influence in their construction and the shape of the transition from bending limb to siyah, perhaps early bows were closer to the Mongol pattern. This specualtive and based on artworks which everyone agrees are unreliable, but I think it is a good place to start a discussion.
I found the article I mentioned. It is "Archery equipment in the Medici armoury" by Alessio Cenni in JSAA 41, 1998.
There is a picture of a (probably Hungarian made, late 15th c.) bow of a shape resembling the crab-leg: the very sharp 90deg bend at the kasan/sal and, straight kasan and a substantial bent at the kasan/tip. The St.Dejan bow would be exatly this type, with the exception of the longer sal (bending limb) sections.
The bow in the article has wider limbs than Turkish, cattle horn on the belly and bone laths on the tips and the grip. The bending limbs are very short in relation to kasans, although the author does not give any dimentions.
This is probably as close as one can get to the crab-leg and coming from the same geographical area. When I first read the article, I thought this bow was just an experiment by the bowyer.
Zoran, I can send you a scanned picture if you want. Please send me email at the mta.ca address.
Adam
There is a picture of a (probably Hungarian made, late 15th c.) bow of a shape resembling the crab-leg: the very sharp 90deg bend at the kasan/sal and, straight kasan and a substantial bent at the kasan/tip. The St.Dejan bow would be exatly this type, with the exception of the longer sal (bending limb) sections.
The bow in the article has wider limbs than Turkish, cattle horn on the belly and bone laths on the tips and the grip. The bending limbs are very short in relation to kasans, although the author does not give any dimentions.
This is probably as close as one can get to the crab-leg and coming from the same geographical area. When I first read the article, I thought this bow was just an experiment by the bowyer.
Zoran, I can send you a scanned picture if you want. Please send me email at the mta.ca address.
Adam
BEDE,
Yes, you`re right, there are a lot of different styles, i have a great number of photographs of the frescoes where composite bows appears. In some cases one bow appears at several frescoes, for example the bow of st. Jevstatije (spelling Iehvstahtieh) from monastery De?ani situated in Kosovo (and Metohija), Old Serbia, and this is verification about that style of the bow.
Holy warrior st. Prokopije(Procopieh) has a white siyah, you noticed mongol influence and later on, i'll say why you are right. I mentioned avaric style for this bow of st. Prokopije from Pe?ka Patrijar?ija in my letter to Stephen because i had this white siyah in my mind, that remind me at bone plate. In one moment i accepted possibility that avar type survived and evolved in this style, but i didn't think about some facts. In the time of economic rise of serbian state, serbian King Stephan Urosh II MILUTIN (1282-1321.) started to employ oriental mercenaries Turks, Tatars(Mongolians), Iassians and specially Kumans. Kuman horse archers were used in Magyar(Hungarian)army too, and there is a lot of the bows which looks like bows from the medieval hungarian pictures of Kuman archers.. Regarding white siyah, can you allow possibility that it could be related with the bone plate? But there's one more fact. Serbian rulers were not used oriental mercenaries in XII century but discovery of the bone plates for siyahs in the old serbian capital Ras proves usage of the composite bows in XII century. Regarding that reflex bow was not autochtonous weapon of Serbs i am in agreement with you that bow of st.Prokopije could have mongolian or Kuman influences,
On the quivers, they had only oriental origins, and they have carried on the right side of the archers which is characteristic for the nomads. There are dual obliques of the quivers represented at the frescoes:flat,plane ones, for example unknown warrior form monastery St. Nagori?ano, or st. Merkurije from De?ani) and have similarity with later oriental quivers used in Italy in XV century.Second type had semicircular base with metal reinforcements analogous to magyar or hungarian quivers. Such style of quiver have st. Prokopije in monastery Manasija. Every quiver have cover, for example similar with Uygur or Kuman quivers...Bede, i could post some picture to you if you are interested.
ADAM,
I expect mentioned picture, thank you!!!!!
ZORAN ALEXANDAR PAVLOVI?
:D
Yes, you`re right, there are a lot of different styles, i have a great number of photographs of the frescoes where composite bows appears. In some cases one bow appears at several frescoes, for example the bow of st. Jevstatije (spelling Iehvstahtieh) from monastery De?ani situated in Kosovo (and Metohija), Old Serbia, and this is verification about that style of the bow.
Holy warrior st. Prokopije(Procopieh) has a white siyah, you noticed mongol influence and later on, i'll say why you are right. I mentioned avaric style for this bow of st. Prokopije from Pe?ka Patrijar?ija in my letter to Stephen because i had this white siyah in my mind, that remind me at bone plate. In one moment i accepted possibility that avar type survived and evolved in this style, but i didn't think about some facts. In the time of economic rise of serbian state, serbian King Stephan Urosh II MILUTIN (1282-1321.) started to employ oriental mercenaries Turks, Tatars(Mongolians), Iassians and specially Kumans. Kuman horse archers were used in Magyar(Hungarian)army too, and there is a lot of the bows which looks like bows from the medieval hungarian pictures of Kuman archers.. Regarding white siyah, can you allow possibility that it could be related with the bone plate? But there's one more fact. Serbian rulers were not used oriental mercenaries in XII century but discovery of the bone plates for siyahs in the old serbian capital Ras proves usage of the composite bows in XII century. Regarding that reflex bow was not autochtonous weapon of Serbs i am in agreement with you that bow of st.Prokopije could have mongolian or Kuman influences,
On the quivers, they had only oriental origins, and they have carried on the right side of the archers which is characteristic for the nomads. There are dual obliques of the quivers represented at the frescoes:flat,plane ones, for example unknown warrior form monastery St. Nagori?ano, or st. Merkurije from De?ani) and have similarity with later oriental quivers used in Italy in XV century.Second type had semicircular base with metal reinforcements analogous to magyar or hungarian quivers. Such style of quiver have st. Prokopije in monastery Manasija. Every quiver have cover, for example similar with Uygur or Kuman quivers...Bede, i could post some picture to you if you are interested.
ADAM,
I expect mentioned picture, thank you!!!!!
ZORAN ALEXANDAR PAVLOVI?
:D
For any of you who would like to see the bow described as 'Kai Yuan' in the Ming Military Encyclopedia of Mao Yuanyi, here it is (the one on the right).
'Kaiyuan' is a place-name that appears in several locations in China. The earliest mention as a place-name was a road built in the Yuan Dynasty in the Laiodong Peninsula (adjacent to present-day North Korea.) The road bordered the northern-most extent of the Mongol Yuan empire.
In passing, the bow on the left became the standard military bow of the Ming military. It was described as the 'small-siyah bow' and I believe that it almost certainly entered China through the Turkish mercenaries who came to China to support the forces of Kublai Khan. The forked string nocks were used by archers on horseback to pick up arrows off the ground without dismounting.
S
'Kaiyuan' is a place-name that appears in several locations in China. The earliest mention as a place-name was a road built in the Yuan Dynasty in the Laiodong Peninsula (adjacent to present-day North Korea.) The road bordered the northern-most extent of the Mongol Yuan empire.
In passing, the bow on the left became the standard military bow of the Ming military. It was described as the 'small-siyah bow' and I believe that it almost certainly entered China through the Turkish mercenaries who came to China to support the forces of Kublai Khan. The forked string nocks were used by archers on horseback to pick up arrows off the ground without dismounting.
S
Stephen,
I am not sure could i add the attachment successfuly but i`ll try. This is a picture of serbian Holy warrior with short bow having syiahs similar to kaiyuan bow, Notice where the string is placed, similar to the bow from encyclopedia, and it looks like stylized representation of turkish bow, regarding the grip. In reality bow is on the left side.
I am not sure could i add the attachment successfuly but i`ll try. This is a picture of serbian Holy warrior with short bow having syiahs similar to kaiyuan bow, Notice where the string is placed, similar to the bow from encyclopedia, and it looks like stylized representation of turkish bow, regarding the grip. In reality bow is on the left side.
Another experiment :D
Yes, yes, yes...This is a picture of mentioned crab leg bow. A bow is short like in turkish style, maybe painter wasn`t precise when he painted grip, interesting stuff is that string is located at the short syiah in similar position like in kaiyuan bow, i think it`s another argument that this style was used in medieval serbian army(and possibly in other armies in South- East Europe).
Zoran Alexandar Pavlovic
Zoran Alexandar Pavlovic
Zoran,
I would be interested in your pictures. All of the Slavic countries had complex histories with many interactions between the East and West. In the South in the various kingdoms, the infuences produced unique and valuable cultures.
In regard to the bow Adam mentioned, it is definitely an interesting weapon. I have seen another similar one in a catalogue which I no longer have access to, but it backs up Adam's theory that the Medici one was not just an experiment. Have any of our friends been to see it?
Bede
I would be interested in your pictures. All of the Slavic countries had complex histories with many interactions between the East and West. In the South in the various kingdoms, the infuences produced unique and valuable cultures.
In regard to the bow Adam mentioned, it is definitely an interesting weapon. I have seen another similar one in a catalogue which I no longer have access to, but it backs up Adam's theory that the Medici one was not just an experiment. Have any of our friends been to see it?
Bede