Very Early Crossbows
I'm curious again about early Chinese crossbows. I've successfully created a full size crossbow with a 12.5 inch draw, using a Yunnan-style mechanism (all wood, just to test the principle), and this works fine, quite well, even. (I tried to make it using flints and stone tools to prove this could be done, and used green wood to make it easier - unfortunately, some ugly cracks appeared when it was drying.) However, I would like to know if anything more is known on the evolution of crossbows in China, or if all that is known is that bone and antler triggers like the Yunnan style were used and then there was an almost immediate shift to the more complex bronze triggers. Is there evidence of rolling nut-type triggers, or anything else apart from the bronze and bone ones?
There has not been much written. The first time that crossbows are 'known' in China is the Spring and Autumn Period (about 700-600BCE), because that it when the first clear bronze mechanisms appear in archaeological remains.
But Prof. Yang Hong thinks that there must have been precursors with other materials, like those that you have made. In fact, no mechanism is needed at all if the string is held on the end of the stock and pushed up over a lip with the thumb-nail.
No, there is no other evidence of further forms: only speculation that they existed.
But Prof. Yang Hong thinks that there must have been precursors with other materials, like those that you have made. In fact, no mechanism is needed at all if the string is held on the end of the stock and pushed up over a lip with the thumb-nail.
No, there is no other evidence of further forms: only speculation that they existed.
Thanks. The main reason I ask is because I'd like to make an authentic and powerful Chinese crossbow, but one that can also shoot downhill properly, unlike the simple lock I have at the moment.
From some information in the Song and Ming military manuals, I get the impression that the quarrel fitting too loosely on the stock and falling off before the shot was a common problem. Soldiers were punished during training for that. No clear instructions were given; but I think that the double teeth on the catch were intended to grip the nock of the quarrel quite firmly so that it woudn't slip.
One thing to remember is that Chinese crossbow quarrels often had nocks. This would simplify the problem of the arrow staying on the string.
Of course if the army issued arrows with nocks that did not fit the strings, then an official might blame the archer (if an official ever made a mistake). There woudl be a similar problem if the nock was too narrow for the teeth of the nut.
Of course if the army issued arrows with nocks that did not fit the strings, then an official might blame the archer (if an official ever made a mistake). There woudl be a similar problem if the nock was too narrow for the teeth of the nut.
In the type of mechanism used in Yunnan into modern times, and presumably a very old type of mechanism, the quarrel cannot touch the string before the shot. There is no way of ensuring that the quarrel stays on the stock besides cutting a deep groove, not moving the crossbow any more than necessary, or applying some kind of adhesive, like beeswax. There are no claws on the lock, and the quarrels have no nocks, as these would be entirely unnecessary. The string is caught in a notch in the stock, and released by a peg with a diagonal top rotating on a hole through the side of the stock.
This, I believe, is why quarrels would have fallen off crossbows in later periods, not due to lackadaisical management, but simply because the types of crossbow were too primitive. Most of the illustrations from the Ming dynasty that I have seen show crossbows that don't have claws, and use the "Yunnan-style" trigger; and as I say, this is powerful and accurate, the only drawback being that it cannot be shot downhill and that quarrels can be loose in the groove and fall out.
This, I believe, is why quarrels would have fallen off crossbows in later periods, not due to lackadaisical management, but simply because the types of crossbow were too primitive. Most of the illustrations from the Ming dynasty that I have seen show crossbows that don't have claws, and use the "Yunnan-style" trigger; and as I say, this is powerful and accurate, the only drawback being that it cannot be shot downhill and that quarrels can be loose in the groove and fall out.
In Hanoi yesterday, I saw crossbows with this sort of simple mechanism (Xani). Just wood without even bone. The string was pushed up out of the trough from the side of the stock.
Yes, I've seen some photos from Laos that show mechanisms like that. Any notch mechanism will work on a crossbow - they simply aren't that stable, and the bolt can't be nocked. If anything, that lever type crossbow has the potential to be less accurate than other types, because it could release one side of the string before the other, giving an uneven release, adversely affecting the quarrel.
I just made handfull of these and when made properly they are quite accurate up to 30 yards and enough accurate to shoot man sized targets up to 50 with ease. I do not expect more from crossbow.
Respectivelly I do not observe inferiority of notch lock mechanism in regards of accuracy and I made both types.
I believe problems do arise when heavier bows (prods are used) and the friction and wear on notch is just too much to result in clean lock movements.
I m having another 180# prod and I m thinking about fitting it on notch lock crossbow, but with a notch made all in moose antler and polished to high luster.
I will eventually report further.
http://www.sweb.cz/hawkwind/malekuse.jpg
http://www.sweb.cz/hawkwind/lockbow.jpg
These are not historical, but rather "vintage looking" pieces I made for LARP group here.
Even my mother, which is not very fit and has health problems was able to put quarels to 15X15 cm at 20 meters with one of these. :D
The prods are only 35#, but I think up to 80# it should work the same. These are long draw fiberglass bows, say very long draw for their lenght.
Jaroslav
Respectivelly I do not observe inferiority of notch lock mechanism in regards of accuracy and I made both types.
I believe problems do arise when heavier bows (prods are used) and the friction and wear on notch is just too much to result in clean lock movements.
I m having another 180# prod and I m thinking about fitting it on notch lock crossbow, but with a notch made all in moose antler and polished to high luster.
I will eventually report further.
http://www.sweb.cz/hawkwind/malekuse.jpg
http://www.sweb.cz/hawkwind/lockbow.jpg
These are not historical, but rather "vintage looking" pieces I made for LARP group here.
Even my mother, which is not very fit and has health problems was able to put quarels to 15X15 cm at 20 meters with one of these. :D
The prods are only 35#, but I think up to 80# it should work the same. These are long draw fiberglass bows, say very long draw for their lenght.
Jaroslav
I think that the Hmong people used a crossbow ith a small "T" shaped trigger. These sometimes become detached from the bow and you have a bow with a slot and hole in the stock, but no mechanism.
Paterson wrote a book on crossbows that covered many of these mechanisms and had plenty of diagrams and pictures though it concentrated more on the complex, later bows.
Paterson wrote a book on crossbows that covered many of these mechanisms and had plenty of diagrams and pictures though it concentrated more on the complex, later bows.
What was the name of that book, Bede?
Dave
Dave
Jaroslav; Nice crossbows. I was going to refrain, because these pics are not Asian style. I made this crossbow a long time ago. There is a spring company in my hometown. They will give you a piece of annealed spring steel. When you have made the bow, they temper. Not so expensive.
This is the second stock for this bow. Origionally, one could cock it by sitting down and using both feet. Not being satisfied, I moved the mechanism back one inch and quadrupled the draw, now at a bit over #400, and changed from a steel rolling nut to a notch mechanism (over ivory, antler would be just fine).
This is the second stock for this bow. Origionally, one could cock it by sitting down and using both feet. Not being satisfied, I moved the mechanism back one inch and quadrupled the draw, now at a bit over #400, and changed from a steel rolling nut to a notch mechanism (over ivory, antler would be just fine).
The stock is vaguely reminiscent of ancient firearms of Balkins types. Walnut with bone inlay. "Improved" mechanism of 16th C. At whatever range, the bolt appears to strike the target at the exact instant that the trigger is pulled. It is very excessive for a toy but quite weak compared to ancient ones. Can shoot in any position.
The cocking mechanism is similar to a goats-foot.
To test the draw weight, the bow was tied to an overhead beam. Then an anvil weighing #175 was hung from the string. Not even close. so I sat on the anvil, an extra #200, still not enough. So I bounced up and down till it locked, voila!, over #400 draw.
You can hunt in Texas with such an item if a doctor deems you unfit for drawing a bow. For me it is just a toy. -j-
To test the draw weight, the bow was tied to an overhead beam. Then an anvil weighing #175 was hung from the string. Not even close. so I sat on the anvil, an extra #200, still not enough. So I bounced up and down till it locked, voila!, over #400 draw.
You can hunt in Texas with such an item if a doctor deems you unfit for drawing a bow. For me it is just a toy. -j-
Jaroslav,
I find the rising pin triggers are not conducive to smooth crossbow action, as the action is by necessity jerky. The triggers that consist of a pin with a diagonally cut top rotating on a pin in the stock (the Yunnan type) are actually a lot smoother. The action of trigger is more spread out, over more component parts and surface area, and the wear on the notch is less when shooting. Similarly, the little metal dealies that hold the quarrel in place I do not use, hence my problems with bouncing quarrels etc. Also, the Chinese-style crossbow that I've made has the long draw typical of Chinese crossbows, without a butt. Instead, there is a handle, and the stock design is very similar to that of the "Warring States lacquered crossbow stock" that can be seen on the ATARN site, minus the lacquerwork. I tried to make it an exact replica of that stock, using the simpler mechanism, using stone tools as much as possible, to end up with a hypothetical "original" Chinese crossbow, a sort of fantasy early Zhou dynasty style. It is fairly low powered, a wooden prod drawing about 150 pounds, but it is almost certainly more than adequate for hunting even larger game. The inferiority of it in comparison to more advanced crossbows would definitely be noticeable on a battlefield.
Anyway, nice crossbows Jaroslav (and Jack Farrell). They look very well made. What wood did you use, Jaroslav?
I find the rising pin triggers are not conducive to smooth crossbow action, as the action is by necessity jerky. The triggers that consist of a pin with a diagonally cut top rotating on a pin in the stock (the Yunnan type) are actually a lot smoother. The action of trigger is more spread out, over more component parts and surface area, and the wear on the notch is less when shooting. Similarly, the little metal dealies that hold the quarrel in place I do not use, hence my problems with bouncing quarrels etc. Also, the Chinese-style crossbow that I've made has the long draw typical of Chinese crossbows, without a butt. Instead, there is a handle, and the stock design is very similar to that of the "Warring States lacquered crossbow stock" that can be seen on the ATARN site, minus the lacquerwork. I tried to make it an exact replica of that stock, using the simpler mechanism, using stone tools as much as possible, to end up with a hypothetical "original" Chinese crossbow, a sort of fantasy early Zhou dynasty style. It is fairly low powered, a wooden prod drawing about 150 pounds, but it is almost certainly more than adequate for hunting even larger game. The inferiority of it in comparison to more advanced crossbows would definitely be noticeable on a battlefield.
Anyway, nice crossbows Jaroslav (and Jack Farrell). They look very well made. What wood did you use, Jaroslav?
Its all ash and these are bowmaking leftower wood.
When making these I was forced to keep budget extreemly low. Its for people who runs in the forrest and shoot each other with blunts.
Anyway - I had fairly short leverage on these. Original notch locks such as skane crossbow have much longer lever.
I m having another order to make a "norman" crossbow, which will be very simplestock and wooden prod between 100# and 150# - eventually paralel to that early chinese crossbow.
Jack - your crossbow look certainly "balkan". Mother of pearl and silver wire inlays.... :D
Niceee!
I made big mediaval crossbow in later swiss style with pearwood stock lately, but as I m not getting enough money for this kind of work I m not making them very often.
http://www.sweb.cz/hawkwind/crossbow.JPG
http://www.sweb.cz/hawkwind/crossbow1.JPG
http://www.sweb.cz/hawkwind/crossbow3.JPG
http://www.sweb.cz/hawkwind/crossbow4.JPG
http://www.sweb.cz/hawkwind/crossbow5.JPG
The rope through nut is fake, there is steel axis, which is hollow. My customer didnt have the money for antler nut in friction wooden case. :/
Jaroslav
When making these I was forced to keep budget extreemly low. Its for people who runs in the forrest and shoot each other with blunts.
Anyway - I had fairly short leverage on these. Original notch locks such as skane crossbow have much longer lever.
I m having another order to make a "norman" crossbow, which will be very simplestock and wooden prod between 100# and 150# - eventually paralel to that early chinese crossbow.
Jack - your crossbow look certainly "balkan". Mother of pearl and silver wire inlays.... :D
Niceee!
I made big mediaval crossbow in later swiss style with pearwood stock lately, but as I m not getting enough money for this kind of work I m not making them very often.
http://www.sweb.cz/hawkwind/crossbow.JPG
http://www.sweb.cz/hawkwind/crossbow1.JPG
http://www.sweb.cz/hawkwind/crossbow3.JPG
http://www.sweb.cz/hawkwind/crossbow4.JPG
http://www.sweb.cz/hawkwind/crossbow5.JPG
The rope through nut is fake, there is steel axis, which is hollow. My customer didnt have the money for antler nut in friction wooden case. :/
Jaroslav