Turkish bow(orange&black)
Hello again,I made this bow using very short (31cm) pieces of horn,the belly of kasan is covered with padauk.The core is made by five fishtailed pieces(maple and ash).The bow is 58-9# at 30"(AMO),the brace is 7 3/4";length about 125cm.Limbs tend to twist toward the left,but the bow shoots quite well.I sealed it using oleo-resinous copal varnish(the one used to seal oil paintings):it's the best natural varnish I found,and I think it's quite similar to old ones,but it remains a little bit sticky and it's not very hard:any advice?
Arsilan,I read you saw an old Turkish bow covered only half way with horn:do you have more information?Anyway,don't throw away scrap pieces of horn!My bows are not faithful replicas,so I hope they aren't somehow misplaced in this site.
Any advice is welcome.
Bye
Francesco
Arsilan,I read you saw an old Turkish bow covered only half way with horn:do you have more information?Anyway,don't throw away scrap pieces of horn!My bows are not faithful replicas,so I hope they aren't somehow misplaced in this site.
Any advice is welcome.
Bye
Francesco
Details
Fulldraw
Very good looking. Some points:
1. Do you know why the limbs twist to the left?
2.Does the left twisting adversely affect accuracy?
3.Does the left twisting adversely affect speed?
4.That looks like a lot deeper brace than 7 odd inches.
5. Was there a reason for so much post-nock siyah?
At 30" draw the nock is just about the far corner of your eye. Just how tall are you?
(Short)
MJuingong
1. Do you know why the limbs twist to the left?
2.Does the left twisting adversely affect accuracy?
3.Does the left twisting adversely affect speed?
4.That looks like a lot deeper brace than 7 odd inches.
5. Was there a reason for so much post-nock siyah?
At 30" draw the nock is just about the far corner of your eye. Just how tall are you?
(Short)
MJuingong
hi Francesco, I like this bow. I also keep every suitable piece of horn for hornbow-making, but I guess the ancient bowyers don?t use sidewalls for their best bows.
I also use natural resins for the varnish, mainly a mixture of solved dammar, sandarac and copal. I had the same problem, till I?ve found out that it is better to apply several times a little varnish and to let it dry 1 or 2 days after every application.
Michael
I also use natural resins for the varnish, mainly a mixture of solved dammar, sandarac and copal. I had the same problem, till I?ve found out that it is better to apply several times a little varnish and to let it dry 1 or 2 days after every application.
Michael
Very nice work Francesco. I have a comment about the tips: in Turkish bows, except a few odd examples, there were no vertical horn inserts. This feature is typical of Crim-Tatar and Indo-Persian bows. In any case, it is a waste of time, since the (relatively) light weight bows need no reinforcement at tips.
Your varnish may eventually dry hard as usual when exposed to sun etc. The old varnishesd dried very slowly and remained plastic for a long time too. It is actually good, since the soft varnish is less likely to crack.
Adam
Your varnish may eventually dry hard as usual when exposed to sun etc. The old varnishesd dried very slowly and remained plastic for a long time too. It is actually good, since the soft varnish is less likely to crack.
Adam
Francesco,
This bow, as all your bows, is very beautifull. Congatulations.
Angel
This bow, as all your bows, is very beautifull. Congatulations.
Angel
Hi MJuingong,twist occurred when I put the bow into reflex during sinewing but especially when I braced an bended the bow the first time.It's very important to "teach" to the bow how to bend properly from the beginning of tillering,using tepliks etc.Light twisting doesn't seem to affect speed,accuracy or the integrity of the bow;obviously I prefer a well aligned bow:I would greatly appreciate any advice on the subject.The brace is 19,4cm from the belly of the grip.I left the tips quite long(not so much...) because I like them:I know it's dead weight but so little that it's not very important.Also old bows usually had tips quite long.I'm about 180cm tall,but in the pic I was using a shorter(29") arrow.
Hi Michael,sandarac solved in alcohol is very hard but too brittle.I tried to melt it in boiling linseed oil(following a lot of ancient recipes) but it didn't melt,maybe it's a different kind of resin:any advice?Dammar and rosin melt very easily in boiling oil(or solve in turpentine) but they are too soft and sticky.
Hi Adam,I make the horn insert at tips principally because I like them.Anyway,once the string splitted the unreinforced ear(walnut) of a bow,and ash also seems prone to split easily at release:cherry seems more resistant.Also I see this kind of insert on Klopsteg's book.About sinew:do you think that cattle leg tendons that I use are inferior to other kinds of sinew?
Your tests about Turkish bows are very interesting,very accurate:keep us informed.
Thanks to everyone
Bye
Francesco
Hi Michael,sandarac solved in alcohol is very hard but too brittle.I tried to melt it in boiling linseed oil(following a lot of ancient recipes) but it didn't melt,maybe it's a different kind of resin:any advice?Dammar and rosin melt very easily in boiling oil(or solve in turpentine) but they are too soft and sticky.
Hi Adam,I make the horn insert at tips principally because I like them.Anyway,once the string splitted the unreinforced ear(walnut) of a bow,and ash also seems prone to split easily at release:cherry seems more resistant.Also I see this kind of insert on Klopsteg's book.About sinew:do you think that cattle leg tendons that I use are inferior to other kinds of sinew?
Your tests about Turkish bows are very interesting,very accurate:keep us informed.
Thanks to everyone
Bye
Francesco
Alesso:
Thanks for the answer.
The bow looks quite fully drawn in the picture, do you get any better performance pulling it the additional inch?
Thanks for the info about the reactions of the various forms of wood, necessitating the side plates. It does seem that where a bow is made shapes the bow, not simply from preference, but for practical reasons.
You said Turkish bows have long ears past the nock. Is it possible that this might have aided the archer in stringing his bow in emergency, or at least rushed and stressful,or poorly-lighted, times?
Perhaps Bede can tell what Korean bowyers did to "teach" their bows not to twist.
Still short,
MJuingong
Thanks for the answer.
The bow looks quite fully drawn in the picture, do you get any better performance pulling it the additional inch?
Thanks for the info about the reactions of the various forms of wood, necessitating the side plates. It does seem that where a bow is made shapes the bow, not simply from preference, but for practical reasons.
You said Turkish bows have long ears past the nock. Is it possible that this might have aided the archer in stringing his bow in emergency, or at least rushed and stressful,or poorly-lighted, times?
Perhaps Bede can tell what Korean bowyers did to "teach" their bows not to twist.
Still short,
MJuingong
I think Thomas knows a lot more about how Korean bowyers condition their bows. It is interesting that we insticntively talk about bows being taught to forget their twist.
My experience is similar to the Turks. Leaving the bow strung with some pressure against the dirtection of the twist, then allowing the unstrung bow to warm in the sun and reflex again seemed to help. Making sure that the bracing of the bow was not contributing to the twist helped too.
Adam gave me the advice to warm the bow with friction by hand and then to gently reverse the twist.
From Thomas's video, it looks like the Koreans knew about all the techniques used in the Middle East and used them because the nature of their bows made twisting of the limbs easy and potentially disastrous.
My experience is similar to the Turks. Leaving the bow strung with some pressure against the dirtection of the twist, then allowing the unstrung bow to warm in the sun and reflex again seemed to help. Making sure that the bracing of the bow was not contributing to the twist helped too.
Adam gave me the advice to warm the bow with friction by hand and then to gently reverse the twist.
From Thomas's video, it looks like the Koreans knew about all the techniques used in the Middle East and used them because the nature of their bows made twisting of the limbs easy and potentially disastrous.
Francesco:
I made several of my first bows using cow tendons, later switched to moose tendons. Cow tendons work, but in my experience they tend to be shorter, a bit weaker (this is noticeable during the shredding operation) and more greasy. Shorter tendons require more joints along the limbs, with potential problems of insufficient overlap etc. One of the bows broke due to sinew pulling apart. Longer tendons allow to cover the whole of sal together with a part of kasan with one bundle of sinew for the last layer. I suppose tendons from a water buff. would be longer.
If both limbs of your bow twist in one direction, it may be best to correct the bow at the grip (bend in the opposite direction), but this is best done before decorating.
Adam
I made several of my first bows using cow tendons, later switched to moose tendons. Cow tendons work, but in my experience they tend to be shorter, a bit weaker (this is noticeable during the shredding operation) and more greasy. Shorter tendons require more joints along the limbs, with potential problems of insufficient overlap etc. One of the bows broke due to sinew pulling apart. Longer tendons allow to cover the whole of sal together with a part of kasan with one bundle of sinew for the last layer. I suppose tendons from a water buff. would be longer.
If both limbs of your bow twist in one direction, it may be best to correct the bow at the grip (bend in the opposite direction), but this is best done before decorating.
Adam
Francesco,
I mix 20% of sandarac and 80% of dammar together in turpentine-oil. This works, if natural resins are to old they are really difficult to melt or to solve.
I?m almost sure that the limbs of every hornbow will twist more or less, that?s the nature of horn. These "twisting-problems" are the price for the otherwise outstanding qualities of horn as a "bow-making-material".
Hornbows are really living beings and if an archer knows his job, he knows how to handle a "twisting" bow.
But anyway I was thinking to minimise the twisting of the limbs by doing my bowery-job very carefully. choose the best and straightest materials when you begin to make the bow.
For to correct a twist I use very carefully heat, even when the bow is decorated, a little heat-treatment can be helpful done several times, not more than 40 degrees celsius.
Sometimes I?ve the idea of a bow-case with a kind of "shaper" for the bow inside. But if the bow can?t move, this could cause cracks?
Michael
I mix 20% of sandarac and 80% of dammar together in turpentine-oil. This works, if natural resins are to old they are really difficult to melt or to solve.
I?m almost sure that the limbs of every hornbow will twist more or less, that?s the nature of horn. These "twisting-problems" are the price for the otherwise outstanding qualities of horn as a "bow-making-material".
Hornbows are really living beings and if an archer knows his job, he knows how to handle a "twisting" bow.
But anyway I was thinking to minimise the twisting of the limbs by doing my bowery-job very carefully. choose the best and straightest materials when you begin to make the bow.
For to correct a twist I use very carefully heat, even when the bow is decorated, a little heat-treatment can be helpful done several times, not more than 40 degrees celsius.
Sometimes I?ve the idea of a bow-case with a kind of "shaper" for the bow inside. But if the bow can?t move, this could cause cracks?
Michael
Sorry, two questions: what is "padauk", and what is "sandarac"?
Thanks for the answers.
Thanks for the answers.
Adam,cow tendons are difficult to shred,but I can get fibers 28-32cm long,long enough to cover the working part of limb.Usually I correct twist applying weights at the nocks of the bow (held on a vice,with sides parallel to ground) and warming the limbs with an hair-dryer.
Michael,the sandarac I have doesn't solve in turpentine;anyway I think that oleo-resinous varnishes are more elastic and durable.I agree,hornbows seems quite unstable,or simply I have to pay more attention to avoid problem from the beginning.I think that once fixed a bow should be used frequently until "stabilized".
Hi Nordbogen,padauk(or padouk) is a kind of red-orange tropical wood.
Sandarac is the resin produced by a kind of north-african juniper(Tetraclinis articulata).
Bye
Francesco
Michael,the sandarac I have doesn't solve in turpentine;anyway I think that oleo-resinous varnishes are more elastic and durable.I agree,hornbows seems quite unstable,or simply I have to pay more attention to avoid problem from the beginning.I think that once fixed a bow should be used frequently until "stabilized".
Hi Nordbogen,padauk(or padouk) is a kind of red-orange tropical wood.
Sandarac is the resin produced by a kind of north-african juniper(Tetraclinis articulata).
Bye
Francesco
Damn what a nice bow, congratulations !
Really impressive. I dont think I have the patience for sutch a detailled painting.
@Nordbogen, for Padouk have a look a Nagel or Cropp timber at Hamburg. There you should get something.
For Sandarak contact the pharmacist of you choice ;-). There is a supplier (Caelo) where he can order all kind of natural stuff (incl. very fine pepper at a price really competitive to the spices in a normal shop)...
@Nordbogen, for Padouk have a look a Nagel or Cropp timber at Hamburg. There you should get something.
For Sandarak contact the pharmacist of you choice ;-). There is a supplier (Caelo) where he can order all kind of natural stuff (incl. very fine pepper at a price really competitive to the spices in a normal shop)...
Thanks Axel.
Hi Alessi
sory the lately answers. Murat ?zveri mentioned me about horn that relatively short than regular turkish bows. He saw it in the Topkapı palace. As he said the horn covered only % 50 of the sal. I think ıt will be enough ıf horn extend to begining of the kasan. Otherwise a new joint may be on the bow. Your bow is very beatiful. how about ıts ring time.
sory the lately answers. Murat ?zveri mentioned me about horn that relatively short than regular turkish bows. He saw it in the Topkapı palace. As he said the horn covered only % 50 of the sal. I think ıt will be enough ıf horn extend to begining of the kasan. Otherwise a new joint may be on the bow. Your bow is very beatiful. how about ıts ring time.