Fish bladder glue fining product PH
Hello,
I have found a french manufacturer of fish bladder glue normally used for wine clarifying.
It is 3 times cheaper than cabinetmakers stores sturgeon fishbladder, but i didn't buy it yet.
It is not made with sturgeon bladders.
It is a white powder but contains 23% citric acid.
I wonder about the strength and the PH.
I would use it at 20% with 80% hide glue for gluing horn.
The mixed powder would then contain only 4.6% citric acid.
I have found this :
Bookbinding and the Conservation of Books
A Dictionary of Descriptive Terminology
"Hide and bone glues make up the two major types of animal glue. Hide glue, which is by far the superior of the two, yields a fairly neutral pH in solution, usually in the range of 6.5 to 7.4, although wider variations are possible. Bone glue is generally acidic, having pH values of 5.8 to 6.3.
A glue having a high acidity absorbs less water and tends to set more slowly than a glue having low acidity.
A glue having a pH greater than 7.0 tends to foam, and has a shorter shelf life than a glue that is slightly acidic. "
http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/don/dt/dt1560.html
What do you think ?
I have found a french manufacturer of fish bladder glue normally used for wine clarifying.
It is 3 times cheaper than cabinetmakers stores sturgeon fishbladder, but i didn't buy it yet.
It is not made with sturgeon bladders.
It is a white powder but contains 23% citric acid.
I wonder about the strength and the PH.
I would use it at 20% with 80% hide glue for gluing horn.
The mixed powder would then contain only 4.6% citric acid.
I have found this :
Bookbinding and the Conservation of Books
A Dictionary of Descriptive Terminology
"Hide and bone glues make up the two major types of animal glue. Hide glue, which is by far the superior of the two, yields a fairly neutral pH in solution, usually in the range of 6.5 to 7.4, although wider variations are possible. Bone glue is generally acidic, having pH values of 5.8 to 6.3.
A glue having a high acidity absorbs less water and tends to set more slowly than a glue having low acidity.
A glue having a pH greater than 7.0 tends to foam, and has a shorter shelf life than a glue that is slightly acidic. "
http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/don/dt/dt1560.html
What do you think ?
Redbow,
I suggest you make some strength test..
I have found dried fish bladders in an asiatic store.
It is around 8 inches long, yellow quite thick and tough.
White fibers inside when it breaks.
It is supposed to come from Hong Kong, but they don't know from which fish it comes from.
It is 100 euros for one kilogramme : something like 50$ / pound.
Very expensive !
I wonder what fish it comes from.
Do you have any idea ?
Thank you.
I suggest you make some strength test..
I have found dried fish bladders in an asiatic store.
It is around 8 inches long, yellow quite thick and tough.
White fibers inside when it breaks.
It is supposed to come from Hong Kong, but they don't know from which fish it comes from.
It is 100 euros for one kilogramme : something like 50$ / pound.
Very expensive !
I wonder what fish it comes from.
Do you have any idea ?
Thank you.
I think what you mean is fish maw, Redbow. And yes, it is still expensive - its a delicacy for those who like it.In chinese cooking it is used as a thickening agent for soups....etc. You got to be carefull though, some of those fishmaw bladders are puffed in hot oil, which renders them useless for glue making. Anyway, the finest maw is taken from yellow croaker which is also used by Korean bowyers, but its difficult to find out the species once it is packed in the shelves of an Asia store. (often it is eel)They sometimes call it fish stomach as well......There are hundrets of whole sale suppliers on the web (check AliBaba) where you can get a sample sent to you(usually 1 kg). At one point I was willing to try out nile perch bladders from here: http://www.arady.net/Products%20Fish%20Maw.htm
.....but I skipped the idea for some reason.
I think this is also a cheap sturgeon bladder substitute, used as a vine clarifying agent......
.....but I skipped the idea for some reason.
I think this is also a cheap sturgeon bladder substitute, used as a vine clarifying agent......
Thank you for your detailed reply...
Concerning the fining product i obtained and containing citric acid :
Adam Karpowicz suggest to dissolve the whole thing in COLD water and then filtered : the acid would come off with the water.
I mixed 20 grams of "glue" and 560 grams of COLD water (8? C).
I shaked the bottle a couple of seconds it turned out to make a thick solution impossible to filter.
I then gave up and cooked this mixture glue for one hour at 60- 70 ?C.
It turned very liquid even when warm. I was then able to filter through a very thin reusable plastic coffee filter.
Cleaning the filter a couple of times was necessary to get rid of the mud like bladders remains.
I obtained a very thin and pure whitish gelatin but still containing citric acid.
Concerning the fining product i obtained and containing citric acid :
Adam Karpowicz suggest to dissolve the whole thing in COLD water and then filtered : the acid would come off with the water.
I mixed 20 grams of "glue" and 560 grams of COLD water (8? C).
I shaked the bottle a couple of seconds it turned out to make a thick solution impossible to filter.
I then gave up and cooked this mixture glue for one hour at 60- 70 ?C.
It turned very liquid even when warm. I was then able to filter through a very thin reusable plastic coffee filter.
Cleaning the filter a couple of times was necessary to get rid of the mud like bladders remains.
I obtained a very thin and pure whitish gelatin but still containing citric acid.
You might look for a product called isinglass, it is also ground fishbladder that is used for clarifying beer. I don't think it typically contains citric acid.
You can imagine i know what isinglass is !
And how expensive it can be !
Isinglass is fish bladder glue also, but from sturgeons only ...
It is supposed to be stronger than other bladders glue, but i don't know if anybody investigated...
It is really difficult to make accurate and reliable glue breaking test without laboratory machine.
And how expensive it can be !
Isinglass is fish bladder glue also, but from sturgeons only ...
It is supposed to be stronger than other bladders glue, but i don't know if anybody investigated...
It is really difficult to make accurate and reliable glue breaking test without laboratory machine.
Sorry! I didn't know that it was a name for glue also. I only know of it through my homebrewing efforts. I bought a kit once and it had a packet of this material in it. I dind't add it to the beer because I was not thrilled with the thought of fish parts floating in my beer. I should have sent it to you.