ATARNarchive

Names of arrow guides

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Bede
Navak means guide in Farsi (Persian) and Majra means guide in Arabic. These words normally describe the same class of equipment.

In its simplest form, the majra or navak is a long stick with a groove down one side deep enough for at least half the diameter of the arrow to fit into it. Usually the groove is deeper than that and the length of the stick is slightly longer than a full-length arrow. There is some sort of string at one end to secure the guide to the drawing hand. It may have a ring to go over the little finger or a loop or ar simple button. It was used from Egypt to Korea.

A more complex form is hollow with a slot in the top and one in the bottom. These openings do not run the full length of the guide, but only far enough for the bow string to complete its stroke. Usually the top slot is wider than the bottom to allow the arrows to be dropped in. Some of the guides in this class have a horn runner and can shoot pellets.

The word navak is used in another context in Farsi. The navak-i-qabza or grip guide is a wholly different thing. It was usually made of metal and tied to the grip of the bow. It was a groove with a tab on one side near the front end. This tab was tied to the bow. An arrow was draw down the groove several inches inside the bow. This allow you to use shorter arrows, but not so short as the usual navak.

The siper or bilek siperi (wrist shield) is what the Ottoman Turks used. It was a groove, oluk, mounted on a shaped wooden block, eshik, glued to a strap and harness, tasma, which tied it to the wrist. Often it had an oval plate, tabla, with a cut out at the front so it could be slid into slots in the eshik.

There is another type of siper which had only a flat plate of horn or tortoiseshell with two raised ridges to stop the point of the arrow from moving to either side.

There is also a ring, whose name I do not know, which had a small shield to protect the thumb from the arrow point.

For Turkish readers, I am sorry, but I haven't found out how to write all the Turkish consonants on this forum.
Thomas Duvernay
In Korean, the guide is called a tong-ah and the half-size arrow used in it is called a pyon-jon.

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Bede
Thomas,
Are the lower guide arrows originals or modern? The points look like ones in the Grayson Collection of some Indo-Persian guide arrows, tir-i-navak, with equally solid armour piercing points. I was impressed by how heavy they were and the impact they must have had on their target.
Thomas Duvernay
Bede,

They are modern, made by Korean fletcher Yoo Young-gi. I should have mentioned I hot-linked the picture from his website:

http://www.arrow.or.kr

I have not heard of Korean pyonjon as ever having been heavy; their main purpose was getting distance and hitting the enemy before they got within standard arrow range. It was one reason for the discontinuation of the tong-ah/pyonjon; they lost their effectiveness when enemy armor was improved, and penetration decreased.


T
Bede
Thomas,
That is very interesting. Those points looked heay to me, but a photograph can be misleading. Of course, by "heavy" I do not mean heavier than an ordinary long arrow with the same tip.

In Arabic and Persian literature, armour piercing darts were recommended for their effectiveness against helmets and shields. I haven't anything setup to test penetration, but eventually I will get round to it. Darts were normally considered to have greater range and velocity than a standard long arrow.

I have seen an article in the Glade magazine by Mark Stretton on the effectiveness of traditonal English arrow heads on armour and flesh when shot from an English longbow af great power. I believe there might be a cable TV show about it too, though I have not seen it. The article was impressive and left me in no doubt that one should have the maximum distance possible between you and an English archer if you wanted to survive the experience. How much farther you would have to stand to escape a Korean archer!
Bede
Thomas,
This is a separate question. How does the arrow rack in http://www.arrow.or.kr/frame6.htm work? How do you take the arrows out when they have such big heads?

I make arrow racks for arrows in construction and for storage, but I haven't a good design for broadheads. My two designs have either a removeable piece on the section with the holes or a long slot that runs through the holes.
Thomas Duvernay
For some strange reason, that frame is not appearing on my computer now. Still, I can imagine what you are referring to. I think the rack was made especially for the arrows by Master Yoo, and only for show, so there was not really a need for them to easily be put in and taken out, but that is only a guess. Sometime, when I visit his museum again, I'll be sure to look.


T
Diana
Thomas,
Nice view of the guides and arrows :)
By the way, that glove looks kind of like the ones used in Kyudo, is it used the same (ie as a drawing aide)?
Thomas Duvernay
Diana,

The glove is a reproduction of one Choson dynasty archers would have worn on their bow hand. Some archers wear a glove on their bow hands today, but they are just simple cotton ones; most people don't wear any.


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Diana
Thomas,
That makes sense now, since I see no reinforcement around the base of the thumb :)
What is the purpose of the lengthened little finger?
Thomas Duvernay
Diana,

Hmmm... I'm not really sure. Sometime when I have the chance, I'll ask someone.


T
Gianrico
Hello,

I like the concept of arrow guide with short arrows, but I don't understand how it works effectively. There isn't a graphic or so (the best would be a movie 8) ) which explain?

Thanks, best regards

Gianrico
Gianrico
Hello Thomas,

Thanks for the pics, unfortunately the pages doesn't load completely and IE shuts down.... :(

Best regards

Gianrico
Gianrico
Ok, thanks... I was at work and IE was just blocked, "ending program" was the only solution... :?

Can you tell me a little more on bows are they shooting in photos? Weight, materials etc.? And is this guide system available easily, or they are "custom" crafted?
I suppose the angle of shooting is for a long distance....

Thanks again

Gianrico
Thomas Duvernay
The bows are mostly the laminated version of the Korean horn bow. You can read more about them at: http://www.koreanarchery.org/model25.html

The guides are easily made (if I can make one, anyone can make one). I used bamboo, about 3/4" in diameter, and cut off the top (about 1/4" deep), making a channel. One end is tapered down to a point; this is the end that will have a loop put on it and is held at the bowstring. The channel is cleaned out and smoothed. As you will notice on the first pictures on my previous post, the point end of the arrow is built up a bit; that is to keep the arrow in the channel, so it doesn't jump out and cause injury. Personally, I didn't build my arrows up like that, but it's probably a good safety consideration.

They are shooting at targets 145m away, just like in regular Korean archery. However, the velocity goes way up when you switch from regular arrows to half-length arrows shot out of a guide; I shot regular carbon arrows (405gr.) at 236fps, but when I switched to half-length (about 200gr.) the speed went up to 283fps. I shot one about 500m, up a ski hill (it crested the hill).


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Stephen Selby
These photos are great. But guys, don't try this at home, right?
:roll:
Thomas Duvernay
Actually, trying it at home is fine--just be careful :D If the arrow jumps the groove, it can damage your hand and/or bow. However, if done carefully, and especially if you use the special point arrows, you will be just fine.


T
Samuraiwarrior
I have shot my bow using a tong-ah about 10 times. All of them worked well but I lost the tiny arrows that buried themselves in the grass. I wore a glove on my bowhand because I was scared and I don't if I want to shoot without it.
Stephen Selby
My concern is more with those who might take a tong-ah to the club to amuse their friends. Then everyone wants a 'go'. You can really kill someone easily with these things.
Samuraiwarrior
Well Stephen,
I don't go to a club and I understand what you mean. I have been as careful as possible and since I lost all the arrows I haven't shot it much recently.
Gianrico

Stephen Selby wrote:

These photos are great. But guys, don't try this at home, right?
:roll:

I think trying this requires to be much careful. Personally I'm interested in this and I think I have not other ways then learn it alone :cry: . Actually I'm training through a subscription to a club (olympic archery), this give me the access at field. My training are very soon in the morning (5.00-7.00), so I am more concentrated and can perhaps try "strange things" without too publicize them 8)

Best regards

Gianrico
Stephen Selby
In Korea, I learned that there is a 'training version' of the tong-ah. The tube wraps around nearly 370 degrees and the arrow is barreled with a bulb so that it cannot escape from the tube except at the end. Thomas can probably add more detail.

I have seen that some woodworkers can get chain-mail steel gloves for use with dangerous power saws. They might be a good investment. Bede can give you grizly details of his first adventures with a tong-ah. :(
Thomas Duvernay
Hmmm... 370 degrees would really be wrapped around :)

There are pictures in one of my preceding posts which show the slightly bulbous points of the "safety" arrows.


T
Gianrico
It would be interesting to see some pics of them. I've reed somewhere that they were made of different materials (turtle, ivory etc.) depending on grade (officer or other) of the archer.

If you have pictures, TIA

Best,

Gianrico
Stephen Selby
Hmmm... 370 degrees would really be wrapped around



Ooops.. :oops: 270 degrees, sorry!
Russ Mitchell
Speak for yourself, Mr. DuVernay!

I have tried four times and still not managed to make a workable arrow-guide... :oops: ::seriously embarrassed look:: :oops:
(I'm okay as a leatherworker, and use a leather thumbring... but am miserably bad with wood and reed)

But maybe my bamboo was simply too narrow to begin with. I'll swing by the local store for some more and try again, as I'd really like to be able to try my hand at some of the Arab/Persian designs.

Bede, if you do such tests, I would very much like to be included on some of the information. I did some tests for a paper I wrote for De Re Militari (should come out next year) involving regular-sized arrows... very general from the perspective of the specialists here, but enough to convince me that the short arrows need looking at.
West
Frankly, I was scared using a pellet bow. I would be totally afraid of getting shot in the hand by an arrow.... however, these dart guides do seem interesting.
Thomas Duvernay
Russ,

The ones I made were out of the taller Martha Stewart boo. I'm terrible when it comes to woodworking (or, in this case, bambooworking), so if I can do it, it's possible that anyone can :wink:


T
Bede
Russ,
I will take some pictures of the two guides I used and measure them and the arrows. I even made one out of aluminium from a piece that was square sectioned with three sides. It wasn't very good but it was safer.

I am getting ready to do some more tests so I will include guide arrows.
Russ Mitchell
Thanks for the encouragement, Thomas. I tried making one of the ones through which the string runs yesterday... but PVC was a bad material choice... too heavy. All I got out of it was a keenly beaten-up hand was the thing bounced all over the place.

Bede, I will gladly suck up as much experimental data as you can generate: as soon as I get my contributor's copies, I'll send you what I was up to, as well.
Bede
PVC tubing is unsuitable for arrow guides and can be very dangerous. My first guide many years ago was made from PVC and it flexed alarmingly causing the darts to fly off in unpredictable directions.

Many original guides in the Middle East were made of wood with the grooved carved out with chisels. If you have access to a router, you can make a guide quickly and accurately. A friend of mine carved out the grooves of the two wooden guides I made and they work flawlessly.
Thomas Duvernay
One guide that was given to me was made out of fiberglass and it flexed terribly. The ones I made out of Martha Stewart bamboo didn't flex that way, and they worked well.


T
Russ Mitchell
I have access to a router, and am sorta ready to try using it... trying to remember my lessons on how it worked. (Now, why I can use a joiner w/ no trouble, but a router throws me....)

Thanks, gents.
Russ Mitchell
Photobucket refuses to display the images.
Stephen Selby
Tom: A short video of pyonjon shooting

Is that still a thumb release there? I couldn't quite make it out.
Thomas Duvernay
Yeah, it was a thumb release, although without great form.


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osmiu
a old thread , but inspiring ....
I threw today this little guy (29 cm)
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at 397 meters

little guy it is from today the undisputed , unofficial champion of romanian flight shooting , and put to a end a unofficial record of 350 meters established by ginni in a flight shooting contest , near Ploiesti , Romania .

happy new year ... !!!
Jos?Dom
Please, more detail about your equipment used on that record.
osmiu
well ... is unofficial ... me and my dog were the only witnesses ...
anyway , here , in my country , just ginni and myself are able to shoot over 300 meters ... the others archers are far behind in flight shooting ... or maybe are not interesed about that ...
I used :
my bow ... a wind traditional fighter 60#@28"
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thumb ring :
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t'ong-ah ... 90 cm
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5 p'yon-jon
results :
p'yon-jon 70 cm : 320 m
p'yon-jon 64 cm (2 pieces) : 340 m
p'yon-jon 45 cm : 357 m
p'yon-jon 29 cm : 397 m

ps : and ... my asistent and observer :
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ask him about that ....
Jos?Dom
Ha-ha! No, I don't dare to ask your dog! Good pictures.

Thanks for the info.