What kind of sinew is that anyway?

Hi Jack,

Thx for the private message.

In Turk Okculugu Dr. Yucel only says it was the achille tendon of ox. Dr. Klopsteg stated that cow tendons were preferred for flight bows and steer tendons for war bows. As you might know Klopsteg had Hein's translation of Telhis-i Resail?'r rumat. I'll have a look at Telhis and contact Cem who is in the know of making Turkish bows. He must have read the related chapter.

M.

Murat and all; Thanks for the reply. For those who have the book, those do look like leg tendons because of the fork at the end of one. Along with Adam's post on making reproduction bows with authentic dimensions, it would be appropriate to use authentic materials. For theatrical purposes, this of course would be unimportant. But if one wanted to make a true statement about the performance of an old bow, then we must consider origional materials. -j-

Hi Jack,

The problem was the terminology. For the castrated males of bovine family, whether they are young or adult, we have just one word in Turkish. The word "?k?z" means both ox and steer.

I discussed this with Cem and he said that the castration of animals in the early stages of their lifes is the more common process here and additionally young animal's sinew was preferred because of its physical qualities and low fat content.

Dr. Y?cel must have meant steer when he wrote "?k?z".

We (Cem and I) have experienced a similar terminology problem when we were researching the fish glue. The fish's name is "Danube sturgeon" according to Dr. Klopsteg while Dr. Y?cel used the Turkish word "Mersin Morinası". Because of the terminological confusion, Mersin morinası may be both Acipencer guldenstaedtii (it's the danube sturgeon) or Huso huso that are two completely different species.

What Mustafa Kani has named it is important but it does not grant finding out the right fish since the terminology might have been more "unstable" 150 years ago.

Turkish traditional bowyery is much more than just a hobby or interest. There are so many details. The know-how must be recovered thru systematic research and no doubt it'll take time.


Regards.

M.

Murat; Oh yes, technique may be the most important but most intangible element of a reproduction. The same ingredents that make a fiddle also go into making a violin and I think we all understand the difference. But an important beginning place is to asess the correct materials, and dimensions. -j-

I think we should be realistic about materials. As long as the materials belong to their respective classes (i.e. hide/fish glues, hardwoods, ox/deer/moose/cow tendons), the difference in performance will be very small, probably no more than 1-2% of arrow speed. The methods of manufacture would be more important than materials, as well as the moisture content of the final product when tested.

Of course the design and the dimensions will always be the primary considerations.

Adam

first of all, it is my first message, glad to meet the people of this forums!

the big difference between leg and back sinew is the lenght! back sinew wich are the longer are more suitable for bow backing (in my opinion!)!
in fact, they are twoo school: for a lot of bowyer "sinew is sinew" wathever the animal or its parts! for some bowyer the best sinew must come from a wild best: elk, deer,...!
maybe there is some snobism in such assertion!
but personaly, with (european) cattle sinew, i was sometime confronted with cross fiber sinew wich make it unsuitable for bow backing!

sorry for my written frenglish!

String, Welcome; Some may know that Turkish bowmaking is not my great fascination, but there are two schools of sinewing, back sinew and leg sinew. These are two rather different things which are used for the same purpose. My thinking is that if the best information points to a certain part of a certain animal then an accurate reproduction should take that into account. Otherwise, the text would not state a preference for one over the other and name both items. Just for discussion's sake one could always state that there was a significant difference until it was proved that there was not.

For instance, it may be that neck sinewing IS superior to leg sinewing. For one it would appear difficult to impossible to comb leg sinew. Now one would naturally want one's reproduction to perform as well as possible but that reproduction should not contain technology or materials not used in the origionals just to enhance performance, should it? I am speaking of an accurate reproduction from any period. -j-

thanks for welcome, jack!
despite of quality, availibility is a main concern too! and leg sinew are easier to collect than back sinew! (in my opinion!)

Jack:

In my view, the use of one sinew over another will not increase performance to any significant degree (i.e. 2fps or so). Similarly, the use of the bladder glue over tendon or hide glue. However, the manipulation of these materials, such as the degree of reflexing, heat, concentration of glue, the thickness of layers etc. can show in the results.

But again the dimensions/limb mass and design are the most important. Old bows were also never exactly the same and these differences will affect performance far more than the materials used.

Adam

hi,

I take very much care on the materials I use for my bows.Usually I prefer staves from trees growing in the wilderness and sinews from deers,wapiti,antelopes and buffalos.
I had a very sad experience some years ago,when a customer brought me a bundle of cattle-legsinew.When I started to pound only a little it was really crashed into dust.I?ve found out that the cows have never had the chance to run,they were locked for their whole lifetime in little boxes.
Since this experience I feel much more responsible for the materials I use.
I?ve started to care much more for the last wildernesses and to support farmers who take care for their cattle as living beings.

Just an idea, why not use kangaroo sinew? They jump around all the time and have huge sinews. Since their leather is the strongest in the world, why would'nt their sinew be that?

Please do nto have me thrown out of the ATARN organization for suggesting this but is it possible to use artificialy sinew? I use artificial sinew for my arrow making and it has been just fine. Being a city dewler access to sinew is an expensive and iffy ebay adventure.

If not , not, but it can be... great

Please do nto have me thrown out of the ATARN organization for suggesting this but is it possible to use artificialy sinew?

No problem, Chicken. There are plenty of bowyers about using artificial sinew. It's called 'glass fiber'. 8)

What about the lenght of sinew in turkish bows? I've read one article where
an old bow was examined(don't remember whether it was turkish) and it was
found, that the sinew used where in fact short strips build up in a brick to brick like manner. I would prefer backstrap sinews instead of short sinew. But since short sinew is easier availible..........
Has anyone worked with pronghorn antelope leg sinew?

hello,

don?t use this antelope-sinew,I?m almost sure that I know the company selling this sinew.They have very fine buffalo-sinew there,leg-sinew,it is much easier to split but more expensive.For sure:you will spent more money,but save a lot of time!

I decided not to use those dry ready sinew and went for fresh ox achilles'tendon instead.I found a slaughter house employee who was willing to arrange for that. (He vacuum zipped them and sent them to me fresh in a parcel via normal mail).
Next, my friend Andrew van Ross and me cleaned them from their fattish tissue using a knive (not a fun job-we lit up some incense sticks....) and then we washed them with acetone to remove any grease left on them.
They where then hanged with pins to dry on the loft. After about 2 weeks they turned all amber and where ready for pounding.

Some of the dry ones......We got about hundred of them, a good number of sinew for our projects as well as for tendon glue (from the scraps).Besides,
not considering the labour that went into its processing, it was quiet cheap compared to ready availiable dried sinew.But I had to make sure those oxen where kept on pasture.Still not a working ox, but at least something.....










( in cm)