ROPE CLAMPING SYSTEM
I saw a man using a wooden tool to wind rope around horn/core laminates to bind them together.
What is this tool called and where can I find instruction on how to build one and use it.
I am nearing the glue up stage of my first two composites and desire to use this technique for binding instead of dozens of c-clamps.
Any and all info is aprpeciated.
What is this tool called and where can I find instruction on how to build one and use it.
I am nearing the glue up stage of my first two composites and desire to use this technique for binding instead of dozens of c-clamps.
Any and all info is aprpeciated.
Hi Chris,
It's called a jomakson in Korean. Except for my video on Korean horn bow crafting, I don't remember seeing one being demonstrated on tape or in print. I've had some made in the past, but I don't have one handy here right now. However, I do have a few pics online.
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Alternatively, you might consider Jaap Koppedrayer's rope and wedge method. He demonstrates it in his video
All Wrapped up in Bowmaking, which is available from Three Rivers Archery.
T
It's called a jomakson in Korean. Except for my video on Korean horn bow crafting, I don't remember seeing one being demonstrated on tape or in print. I've had some made in the past, but I don't have one handy here right now. However, I do have a few pics online.
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![[external image]](http://www.hornbow.com/jomak1.jpg){kind=link}
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![[external image]](http://www.hornbow.com/jomak2.jpg){kind=link}
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![[external image]](http://www.hornbow.com/jomak3.jpg){kind=link}
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![[external image]](http://www.hornbow.com/jomak4.jpg){kind=link}
Alternatively, you might consider Jaap Koppedrayer's rope and wedge method. He demonstrates it in his video
All Wrapped up in Bowmaking, which is available from Three Rivers Archery.
T
This tool is called ten?ik (tenchik) in Turkish. It works in the same way. You may need a bit of practice with this and a helper to do the glue-up fast enough before the glue hardens.
Adam
Adam
Thank you for the photos they are more than helpful, however I am not sure how the tool is to be used. the one I saw was being used to build a chinese bow and looked much different - the biggest difference being where the rope is to be wraped aorund the tool is grooved. How do I wrap the rope around your tool and what diameter rope should I use?
Is the rope tool and the rope and wedge method better suited to binding the horn to the core than c-clamps or say strips of heavy rubber inner tube. Would inner tube strips work?
question about glues: I am very familiar with the process of sinew backing wooden bows - I have built dozens of them. the consistence of the hide glue for the horn/core layup - should it be thicker or thinner or the same as what I would use for the sinew?
Adam thank you for guiding me to this forum. I have found more informaion on horn bow construction on this one site than I have over the course of 3 years searching elswhere on my own. This site is a genuine treasure. thank you veyr much.
Is the rope tool and the rope and wedge method better suited to binding the horn to the core than c-clamps or say strips of heavy rubber inner tube. Would inner tube strips work?
question about glues: I am very familiar with the process of sinew backing wooden bows - I have built dozens of them. the consistence of the hide glue for the horn/core layup - should it be thicker or thinner or the same as what I would use for the sinew?
Adam thank you for guiding me to this forum. I have found more informaion on horn bow construction on this one site than I have over the course of 3 years searching elswhere on my own. This site is a genuine treasure. thank you veyr much.
Adam I just noticed that you are in Canada - what province?
I live in London, Ontario which is 1.5 hours west of Toronto.
I live in London, Ontario which is 1.5 hours west of Toronto.
Good to see you here Chris. I live in New Brunswick, maybe 2000kmm from you?
I suggest to use clamps, spaced every 1-1.5in, through blocks of wood with some padding. The rope method works well, but requires more skill. A pressure strip or a loose piece of rope (as in Korea) is required on the horn side. Without it, if your horn strip is flat, the pressure would only be on the edges, not along the centre of strip. I have not used the rope/wedge method and I belive it is inferiour to the other two for this particular application.
The video by Thomas is definitely worth buying to give you an idea about the use of glue etc. Generally, at least several coats of thin glue are done first on both parts, then a lot of heat and a thick glue. Slow gelling glue (this depends on ambient temperature at the moment) is better for more time.
Adam
I suggest to use clamps, spaced every 1-1.5in, through blocks of wood with some padding. The rope method works well, but requires more skill. A pressure strip or a loose piece of rope (as in Korea) is required on the horn side. Without it, if your horn strip is flat, the pressure would only be on the edges, not along the centre of strip. I have not used the rope/wedge method and I belive it is inferiour to the other two for this particular application.
The video by Thomas is definitely worth buying to give you an idea about the use of glue etc. Generally, at least several coats of thin glue are done first on both parts, then a lot of heat and a thick glue. Slow gelling glue (this depends on ambient temperature at the moment) is better for more time.
Adam
Adam, than you for your reply.
Glad to hear that clamps work well - I will go ahead with that method.
I only have commercial hide glue available form Lee Valley tools: there is a slow gel 150 bloom strength and a quicker setting 260 bloom strength.
I have used the higher bloom strngth glue for laminsting all wood bows and sinew backing before - gel time can be quick.
would you suggest sacrificing strength for a longer working time or take my chances with the quick geling glue?
as for the multiple glue applicaitons: 3,4,5,4,6 very watery coats to both the horn and the wood core. once that is complete - heat both peices thuroughly - apply a thicker glue to both surfaces and bind together. is this correct? Is there a need to re-heat the limbs after the clamps are in place as Jeff Schmidt does in his video?
would you recommend that the side of the core that will recive the sinew backing allso receive the many watery glue applications to aid in the sinew bonding to the wood?
putting that much moisture into the wood core before glue up really helps me to see the neccessity of a long curing process before the first stringing.
This process is becoming much more intreguing that I had ever imagined. the many subtle yet necessary steps are absolutely fascinating.
thanks again.
Glad to hear that clamps work well - I will go ahead with that method.
I only have commercial hide glue available form Lee Valley tools: there is a slow gel 150 bloom strength and a quicker setting 260 bloom strength.
I have used the higher bloom strngth glue for laminsting all wood bows and sinew backing before - gel time can be quick.
would you suggest sacrificing strength for a longer working time or take my chances with the quick geling glue?
as for the multiple glue applicaitons: 3,4,5,4,6 very watery coats to both the horn and the wood core. once that is complete - heat both peices thuroughly - apply a thicker glue to both surfaces and bind together. is this correct? Is there a need to re-heat the limbs after the clamps are in place as Jeff Schmidt does in his video?
would you recommend that the side of the core that will recive the sinew backing allso receive the many watery glue applications to aid in the sinew bonding to the wood?
putting that much moisture into the wood core before glue up really helps me to see the neccessity of a long curing process before the first stringing.
This process is becoming much more intreguing that I had ever imagined. the many subtle yet necessary steps are absolutely fascinating.
thanks again.
Adam,
i just made contact with an asian market in town that sells dried fish bladders, though the species is unknown.
Is fish bladder glue worth the effort invovled in making it or is hide glue adequte for the task of joining wood/horn and sinew?
is there anywhere I can purchase fish bladder glue commercialy or privately?
I am jsut full of questions!
i just made contact with an asian market in town that sells dried fish bladders, though the species is unknown.
Is fish bladder glue worth the effort invovled in making it or is hide glue adequte for the task of joining wood/horn and sinew?
is there anywhere I can purchase fish bladder glue commercialy or privately?
I am jsut full of questions!
Edible fish bladder has been treated with many enzymes and other additives. It is not usable for making fish glue.
Stephen:
Could you tell me more about the treatment of edible bladders? My impression was the bladders which were air dried (as opposed to force dried with heat) are good. I used such bladders without any problems. My understanding is that fresh bladders are simply dried and sold. How can the chemicals be introduced to them? By soaking in a solution before drying? Then the the chemicals could be washed away again. I know some bladders sold for glue are indeed treated to de-scent and add preservatives, but with no ill effects on the properties of glue.
Chris:
You need glue that allows you enough time, but it can not be the type that is weakened by prolonged boiling or a non-gelling such as the "liquid hide glue". Fish bladder glue has the property of slow gelling, but is strong when dry. It is now hot season in Ontario, so you may even be OK with your hide glue. I sometimes use the high Bloom strength glue from Lee Valley, but do not know the other one. You can also mix glues for the desired properties. Perhaps you can test your glue to see how fast it would gel at the concentration 20-25%. I believe you can buy croaker bladders from Korea.
The idea is to achieve a glossy coat on the parts before the final joining. In case of horn it is best to use many coats of thin glue, since the viscosity is low for best wetting. The horn should look glossy and black, with no greyish spots which are air bubbles trapped between the horn and glue.
There is no need to reheat after binding. It is actually dangerous, since the re-liquified glue may flow out, starving the joint. The glue should however be applied again at edges to flood the line and form a fillet there. As the glue dries the excess is sucked into the joint. The worst enemy is not the excess of glue, but voids.
The re-heating is an attempt to make liquid the glue that gelled before the parts were clamped. This can be controlled during clamping by paying attention to the glue coat. If the glue begins to gel towards the end of the operation, the joint there can be flooded with hot, thinner glue to re-activate the gelled glue.
You have experience with hide glue joinery in much longer bows and I am sure you can do this fast enough. There is only about 12-15 clamps to use and both the core and horn are very hot. A trial run is essential as always.
The back side of core for sinew should be glossy too and scored with grooves.
Adam
Could you tell me more about the treatment of edible bladders? My impression was the bladders which were air dried (as opposed to force dried with heat) are good. I used such bladders without any problems. My understanding is that fresh bladders are simply dried and sold. How can the chemicals be introduced to them? By soaking in a solution before drying? Then the the chemicals could be washed away again. I know some bladders sold for glue are indeed treated to de-scent and add preservatives, but with no ill effects on the properties of glue.
Chris:
You need glue that allows you enough time, but it can not be the type that is weakened by prolonged boiling or a non-gelling such as the "liquid hide glue". Fish bladder glue has the property of slow gelling, but is strong when dry. It is now hot season in Ontario, so you may even be OK with your hide glue. I sometimes use the high Bloom strength glue from Lee Valley, but do not know the other one. You can also mix glues for the desired properties. Perhaps you can test your glue to see how fast it would gel at the concentration 20-25%. I believe you can buy croaker bladders from Korea.
The idea is to achieve a glossy coat on the parts before the final joining. In case of horn it is best to use many coats of thin glue, since the viscosity is low for best wetting. The horn should look glossy and black, with no greyish spots which are air bubbles trapped between the horn and glue.
There is no need to reheat after binding. It is actually dangerous, since the re-liquified glue may flow out, starving the joint. The glue should however be applied again at edges to flood the line and form a fillet there. As the glue dries the excess is sucked into the joint. The worst enemy is not the excess of glue, but voids.
The re-heating is an attempt to make liquid the glue that gelled before the parts were clamped. This can be controlled during clamping by paying attention to the glue coat. If the glue begins to gel towards the end of the operation, the joint there can be flooded with hot, thinner glue to re-activate the gelled glue.
You have experience with hide glue joinery in much longer bows and I am sure you can do this fast enough. There is only about 12-15 clamps to use and both the core and horn are very hot. A trial run is essential as always.
The back side of core for sinew should be glossy too and scored with grooves.
Adam
Adam,
I am very greatful to you for taking the time to so thuroughly answer my questions. Considering the price of dried fish glue I will purchase 100g and expereiment with mixing in a quality hide glue to fill out the volume I will need for my two bows. just for the sake of using fish glue.
when you speak of glue ocncentrations of 1-2%Wor 20-25% how do I measure that out? do I do it by weight of dried glue to water?
what glue concentration would you use for the sinew? of all the sinew jobs I have done I just winged it with the glue/water ratio's - I understand that it is best to be more exacting with the highly stressed horn bow.
when you say core and horn need to be hot - so hot I can't hold it or hot enough that it is uncomfortable to hold?
I have three horn bows that I can get my hands on to pattern. one is an old turk flight bow the other is a Korean horn bow and the last one is a chineses target bow.
As much as I would like to build the korean bow I hear it can be difficult to tame and requires a high degree of skill due to its narrow limbs propensity to twist and shed its string. I think the first one will be a turk and the other will be patterned after one taht Japp K. builds.
thanks.
I am very greatful to you for taking the time to so thuroughly answer my questions. Considering the price of dried fish glue I will purchase 100g and expereiment with mixing in a quality hide glue to fill out the volume I will need for my two bows. just for the sake of using fish glue.
when you speak of glue ocncentrations of 1-2%Wor 20-25% how do I measure that out? do I do it by weight of dried glue to water?
what glue concentration would you use for the sinew? of all the sinew jobs I have done I just winged it with the glue/water ratio's - I understand that it is best to be more exacting with the highly stressed horn bow.
when you say core and horn need to be hot - so hot I can't hold it or hot enough that it is uncomfortable to hold?
I have three horn bows that I can get my hands on to pattern. one is an old turk flight bow the other is a Korean horn bow and the last one is a chineses target bow.
As much as I would like to build the korean bow I hear it can be difficult to tame and requires a high degree of skill due to its narrow limbs propensity to twist and shed its string. I think the first one will be a turk and the other will be patterned after one taht Japp K. builds.
thanks.
The concentrations are by weight: 20g glue + 80g (mililiters) makes 20% glue. For sinew 20-25% is OK.
The parts should be about 50-60 deg Celsius, very thoroughly warmed, away from the source, but for a longer time. 60 is about the maximum usually, since when horn becomes too hot, the surface is ruined by blisters in the glue coating. It will not be comfortable to hold any more at 60 deg.
Adam
The parts should be about 50-60 deg Celsius, very thoroughly warmed, away from the source, but for a longer time. 60 is about the maximum usually, since when horn becomes too hot, the surface is ruined by blisters in the glue coating. It will not be comfortable to hold any more at 60 deg.
Adam
I like this transition to a more precise approach to bowyery.
one other question: core/horn - how long should that cure before moving on to sinewing?
one other question: core/horn - how long should that cure before moving on to sinewing?
I let the bow dry for at least one month before sinew. During that time the core and horn can be shaped etc.
Adam
Adam
Hello Chris; My name is Steve Thomson and I live about 40 minutes from you near Woodstock. I am a bowmaker and have been trained by Jaap Koppedrayer in the wedge and rope technique. Like jaap,I make bamboo composite bows and others. E-mail me for directions and come over some time to talk about bowmaking. Happy to share info. with you.
Sincerely, Steve Thomson
Sincerely, Steve Thomson
When using a rope clamping system, does the material of the rope matter? I wonder if a natural material would be better. Some synthetic ropes out there may stretch and I don't know if they will stretch enough to cause the pressure to be lost.