Arab Archery
In the new edition of Enciclopedia of Islam, Davide Nicolle - ad vocem "archery" - affirms that the book: "Kitab fi bayau fadl al-qaws w-al-sahm wa-awsufihim"(A Book on The Excellence of The Bow & Arrow) translated in English in "Arab Archery" by Faris and Elmer, for many years thought to be a later Mamlūk treatise on archery (1500), only recently was been recognised as wrote by Abū Muḥammad Jamāl al-Dīn Ibn Maymūn (Maroccain) in 13th century.
Unfortunely Nicolle don't cites the source of this new attribution and datation. Someone here knews were it is ?
Thanks
Giovanni Amatuccio
Unfortunely Nicolle don't cites the source of this new attribution and datation. Someone here knews were it is ?
Thanks
Giovanni Amatuccio
I have had the same information recently through a spanish historian and arqueologist... most probably he knew through David Nicolle.
There was a mention of this idea in a recent Journal of the Society of Archer-Antiquaries. Dr Nicolle was cited as the source.
However, I must point out that Arab Archery was not referred in previous literature as a Mamluk work of the 1500s. It was recognised by its translators as an Arab work of the Maghrib (the West or North Africa). It is Saracen Archery that is the Mamluk work. There were many internal references that support this conclusion.
It is a great step forward if the author has been definitely identified.
However, I must point out that Arab Archery was not referred in previous literature as a Mamluk work of the 1500s. It was recognised by its translators as an Arab work of the Maghrib (the West or North Africa). It is Saracen Archery that is the Mamluk work. There were many internal references that support this conclusion.
It is a great step forward if the author has been definitely identified.
finally I'have found where Nicolle have found this information. It'is in an unpublished doctoral thesis by Al-Saraf on Mameluk Archery. In effect he identifies precisely the Mameluk autor of XIV cent. He precise that the manuscrit used by Faris and Elmer was XVI cent. copy that don't have the first page with title and author. In his thesis Al-Sarraf cite another manuscript cosulted by him (unknow to Faris and Elmer) that have in first folio the exact title and author, that are so as I've quoted in my first post. So, this work appear to be one of the first of Arab archery literature, before also to Gunayat translated in Sarace Archery by Latham and Paterson.
This thesis should be published and the source document identified so other scholars can look at it.
It is correct that Faris and Elmer did not have the first page of the manuscript.
Do you have further details like the full name of the author of the thesis and the University?
It is correct that Faris and Elmer did not have the first page of the manuscript.
Do you have further details like the full name of the author of the thesis and the University?
SHIHAB AL-SARRAF, L?archerie mamluke (643-924/ 1250-1217), Universit? de Paris Sorbonne, 1989.
It's a very well made work of about 1000 pages, unfortunately it does'nt was published, I've get a microform copy from Sorbone.
It's a very well made work of about 1000 pages, unfortunately it does'nt was published, I've get a microform copy from Sorbone.
Sorry, again I'm the guest. I forgot allways to log in before posting.
That is very interesting. Is it a translation, a facsimile of the text or both?
When you look at the author's name, it appears to be thoroughly Arab and not Mamluk of the period (which often have an Arabic first part but a Turkish personal name). There were many famous Maghrebi scholars of those centuries.
If the contents of the two manuscripts are nearly identical, it would point to a much early concentration on crossbows in the Maghreb that formerly thought. It would also explain some of the archaic descriptions of Arab bows which sometimes sound almost pre-Mongol.
When you look at the author's name, it appears to be thoroughly Arab and not Mamluk of the period (which often have an Arabic first part but a Turkish personal name). There were many famous Maghrebi scholars of those centuries.
If the contents of the two manuscripts are nearly identical, it would point to a much early concentration on crossbows in the Maghreb that formerly thought. It would also explain some of the archaic descriptions of Arab bows which sometimes sound almost pre-Mongol.
IN effect AL-Sharraf, in his thesis, does'nt publish the manuscrit text, just he use it for his work. He affirms that exist 3 manuscrits: one of Garret Collection (used by Faris and ELmer) without the first folio; other two are in Instambul (Koprulu), from which it's possible to read the title and author (ibn-Maymun). He is a Marocain - not a Mameluk - of XIII cent. Al-Sharraf simply affirms that this treatise had influenced the following mameluk treatises. He says that also Taybugha, al-Mardi and others have quoted this treatise. Again he affirms that Faris and Elmer have made translation and thecnical errors.
There are again much to study about the great arab archery literature; unfortunately works suche this of Al-Sarraf remain unpublished. Is the same case of another doctoral thesis of Manchester univeristy by A. D. Jallon that I've get, in wich is edited an other arabic text: Kitab fi marifat ilm ramy al-siham, by al-Yunini. Here the author publish te integral arab text but without translation, just with an English commentary.
There are again much to study about the great arab archery literature; unfortunately works suche this of Al-Sarraf remain unpublished. Is the same case of another doctoral thesis of Manchester univeristy by A. D. Jallon that I've get, in wich is edited an other arabic text: Kitab fi marifat ilm ramy al-siham, by al-Yunini. Here the author publish te integral arab text but without translation, just with an English commentary.
Thank you very much for the information (and confirmation) of the source Dr. Nicolle used. Its of great use and interest for me, as Im researching about archery in al-Andalus.
I found a 7 pages resume or introduction to a doctoral thesis written in 1989 in Spain by RADHI MOHAMMAD BASHIR HASAN (Universidad Complutense of Madrid) about a manuscript from the 11th century. He used the copies made in the 14th century. There are two, one in Berlin and the other, much more extense, in Rabat. The thesis has more than 1000 pages and is written in spanish... hope I can find a copy of it!
oh, the manuscript title is Kit?b al-bad?'i' wa-l-asr?r fi haq?qat al-radd wa-l-intis?r wa-l-g?mid m?iŷtam'a 'al? al- rum?t bi-l-ams?r (Book of the wonders and arcanes about the reponse to the attack, the victory and the secrets, in what it concerns to the archers in the advances), by al-Haraw?. Sorry if the translation is not correct at all, but im not a professional translator...
I found a 7 pages resume or introduction to a doctoral thesis written in 1989 in Spain by RADHI MOHAMMAD BASHIR HASAN (Universidad Complutense of Madrid) about a manuscript from the 11th century. He used the copies made in the 14th century. There are two, one in Berlin and the other, much more extense, in Rabat. The thesis has more than 1000 pages and is written in spanish... hope I can find a copy of it!
oh, the manuscript title is Kit?b al-bad?'i' wa-l-asr?r fi haq?qat al-radd wa-l-intis?r wa-l-g?mid m?iŷtam'a 'al? al- rum?t bi-l-ams?r (Book of the wonders and arcanes about the reponse to the attack, the victory and the secrets, in what it concerns to the archers in the advances), by al-Haraw?. Sorry if the translation is not correct at all, but im not a professional translator...
You are all of you more competent than I... please, keep it coming!
There is no doubt that the Mamluk treatises were influenced by previous Arab and Persian authors as this is mentioned repeatedly in the texts. Marda worked for Salah ed-Din Yusuf ibn Ayyub and probably had access to what was left of the Fatimid libraries in Egypt. The Fatimids had conquered Egypt from the West (i.e. North Africa).
However, there are strange differences between the texts in Arab Archery and Saracen Archery. Two major ones are the techniques of schools of archery and the method of counting with the fingers. If an earlier manuscript had more detail or showed that there had been textual corruption, it would be very valuable. Usually there are multiple manuscripts used for a definitive translation, but because of the circumstances of the translation of the manuscript used for Arab Archery, it was limited and it shows.
However, there are strange differences between the texts in Arab Archery and Saracen Archery. Two major ones are the techniques of schools of archery and the method of counting with the fingers. If an earlier manuscript had more detail or showed that there had been textual corruption, it would be very valuable. Usually there are multiple manuscripts used for a definitive translation, but because of the circumstances of the translation of the manuscript used for Arab Archery, it was limited and it shows.
Alewar, in the thesis, the Arab original test is translated entirely in SPanish ?
Im not completely sure but Id say they did translate it all (he worked in collaboration with another professor), because they say in this introduction or resume I have that they translated some other texts where they found this manuscript cited. I have translated into english the introduction or resume.
Sorry, im the guest... apparently I got logged out after a fail in my connection.
Im not completely sure but Id say they did translate it all (he worked in collaboration with another professor), because they say in this introduction or resume I have that they translated some other texts where they found this manuscript cited. I have translated into english the introduction or resume.
Im not completely sure but Id say they did translate it all (he worked in collaboration with another professor), because they say in this introduction or resume I have that they translated some other texts where they found this manuscript cited. I have translated into english the introduction or resume.
I should verify again, or I might send you the translation I did (despite the possible mistakes as Im not a professional translator)
Does it is this the thesis ?
T?tulo: EL EJERCITO EN LA EPOCA DEL CALIFATO DE AL-ANDALUS
Autor: RADHI MOHAMMAD BASHIR HASAN
Universidad: COMPLUTENSE DE MADRID
Fecha de Lectura: 01/01/1990
Thank you if you can send me the resume, I can read in French and Spanish also.
T?tulo: EL EJERCITO EN LA EPOCA DEL CALIFATO DE AL-ANDALUS
Autor: RADHI MOHAMMAD BASHIR HASAN
Universidad: COMPLUTENSE DE MADRID
Fecha de Lectura: 01/01/1990
Thank you if you can send me the resume, I can read in French and Spanish also.
Yes, thats the thesis, at least in this kind of resume he mentions he studied the manuscript of Berlin in that Thesis.
No problem but Ill need an email address where to send you the file. I can send the spanish one (the original) or the translation into english, the one you prefer to read.
No problem but Ill need an email address where to send you the file. I can send the spanish one (the original) or the translation into english, the one you prefer to read.