Bows of the old South American cultures

Redhawk; The Hopi and AZTECS share a common mother tongue-Uto-Aztecan. Other Native americans of this language group are the Utes, Shoshone, Comanches and the Tarahumara.

Double curved bows of the southwest and southern plains are invariably wood self bows and sinew-backed hardwood bows. Horn bows are exclusively found on the northern plains, prarie and plateau. To my knowledge there is not a single hornbow associated with the southern plains.

Neighter the Maya nor the Aztecs favored archery for warfare for the same reason as the Greeks; they enjoyed face to face combat. All bows of these and other SA cultures of which I am aware are self bows.

Some archery scenes are found in the Mayan codices.

If you want a real mystery of NA archery, there are many undeniable associations with Asian archery; this is where it came from and where sucessive innovations in bowmaking arrived. -j-

thank you Jack, I knew that this is a question for you......

I don?t enjoy face to face combat...... I?m very involved into the Mayan codices ( you know 2012 is just right now), so I should have a closer look to the archery scenes posted there.

I?m not so sure that all the Native American archery has its Asian roots, cause there a theories, that the Celts have been in America long before Columbus. In the language of some Native American tribes you can find words very, very similiar to some Celtic- based dialects spoken still today in Europe.

What?s about the archery of the Incas?

Are there some more reliable pics?

Michael

This is a very interesting thread - the possible connection between Asian and native American archery. Some of the bows illustrated in Hamilton's 'Native American Bows' seem to show links. Some Eskimo/Inuit bows look like they were based on Mongol type designs - but used different materials and techniques e.g. free sinew backs, so they diverged their own way. Could Siberian Inuit have traded with Eastern Asian nomads, obtained bows and then adopted the designs in their own self-made weapons? These could have found their way in the past across the Bering Straits via the Inuit peoples - copied designs - or even originals? These then could have disseminated into North America via trade etc. influencing North American native bowyers with sinew-backing and composite techniques.

Also, some of the Californian sinew backed bows look very 'Asian'. There could be a link - or it may just be 'convergent evolution' i.e. function dictating form maybe.

There are more interesting teories , not only inuits or celts. For example ancient Egyptians have contacts vith south american cultures because in faraons mumie(i don?t remember neme tjis faraon) was find cocain . Another assumptions is in your fantazie.. :roll:

Here is a thought: all people, along with the concept of the bow and arrow, had one point/place of origin... and then spread out over the face of the earth taking the common concept with them and modifying it based upon the combnation of available materials, time and needs as they settled new lands. this would give rise to the various forms of bows and arrows we see through out the world.

I do not see that there is a need to sepculate about some mysterious connections between people groups and the similarities of their equipment. I beleive that the similaries are present due to similar geographical/cultural and other influences.

The reason why the bow and arrow appears to have show up all around the world in a very short span of time is explained in the Biblical account of "the tower of Bable _ Genesis Chapter 11" - the concept for a bow originated in one place and was then transported to new parts of the world via the distinct language/ethnic groups that resulted from the tower of bable dispersion.

Sorry Chris, but sometime we talk about oldiest culturs or civilizations then tower of Bable or Biblia book...

redhawk wrote:

I?m not so sure that all the Native American archery has its Asian roots, cause there a theories, that the Celts have been in America long before Columbus. In the language of some Native American tribes you can find words very, very similiar to some Celtic- based dialects spoken still today in Europe.

I've read about findings in Newfoundland of pre-Columbus Norse settlements (along the lines of what you were saying) that have been proven to be real. Apparently distance, hazardous travel, and unfriendly interactions with the natives led to the end of these settlements within a generation.

Redhawk; I have never seen an Inca bow and arrow but assume that they must have existed. There was a display of Pre- Columbian archery items once in Mexico. The bows were all self D bows. But the arrows were four fletched with whole feathers so that the fletching made a kind of box. Interesting and unique. Amazonian bows are easy to find in collections.

Nick; In "Modeling warfare in the Ancient Southwest" the author describes how quickly military technology crosses political boundaries through "contagious competitive advantage" whereby you must assimilate the superior weapons of your enemies or become their victims.

Check out the Coastal Miwok of California and you will be convinced.

Chris; There are many informative passages in the Bible about archery. The story about the tower of Babel is not one of these. Samuel II is. You can learn alot about the archery of the Near East from the Bible but nothing about NA archery.

Stephen; There is an established Historic site in Newfoundland dealing with a supposed Norse site which was reported in National Geographic Magazine some years ago. There is also a scholarly book out in which the author asserts that the site is not Norse but of the Albans culture of the British Isles.

A curator of the Smithsonian , Denis Stanford, has given several lectures proposing his theory about Europeans crossing over during the last ice age and since and adding their small parcel of DNA to the new world mix. A complex discussion.

Thanks all, -j-

Thankś Jack,
its no discussion about tru that all human been in S.& N. america are from euro-asia teritori.Most interesting vay ( than Bering ice vay)are across the ocean ,fron New Founland , or like Thor Hayerdal from Egypt or from Japan, because DNA research in Peruans blood have similary elements like Japan people .I mean , the first big group people imigrate to america , before .borning in asia composite bow vith siash.(sorry for my english...) :lol:

I suspect that a number of the South American "jungle" cultures made similar adjustments in archery manufacture, material and techniques as were made by the southeastern and southern Asians.

I have for some time been of the opinion that the North American Plains Indians, after the introduction of the horse, were replicating the archery development of the horse nomads of the Eurasian plains. This development, in America, was ended by the industrialized European-originated American Republic.

yes,yes,yes.

Asian/American pre-Columbian contacts have been a popular area of discussion for a long time. In the 1940s, there were several scholarly works relating to the artistic and cultural parallels between Shang/Zhou Chinese art and SA indigenous cultures. However, the fact is that the Shang-Zhou coincided with the Olmec culture. Although the Olmec are only slightly known, none of their art seems to have included any of the ancient 'Chinese' features.

More credible is the idea that the colonization of the Pacific Islands and New Zealand was seeded from Melansian peoples whose early origins were Taiwan and the Southeast China coast. These peoples used simple self bows. Some of these peoples (who were formidable seafarers with outrigger canoes) could have reached the West Coast of NA and SA.

S

The discovery about ten years ago of a skeleton in Kennawick Washington state and the ensuing battle with the archaeologists and the NAs over what should happen to the 9000year old remains triggered a fierce scientific study over to which race this man belonged. The answer is that people have changed as a whole in that time and anyway he does not belong to a modern group. Seems as though NAs dna is a complex make up of many types but heavy on Siberian.

But follow the chronology. Men did not arrive in the new world with bows and arrows. They arrived 15 or 25000 years ago but the earliest remains of archery dates to maybe 1 AD or more realistically 500 AD. This is late; too late to ascribe their look-alike bows to Scythian influence.

Take out a map and look for St. Lawrence Island, between Alaska and Siberia. These Eskimos speak a Siberian language. There are many strong resemblances between Asian archery gear and Eskimo's. In the days of the cold war, Eskimos paddled from Alaska to Siberia in skin boats to visit relatives. It was common to do. Technology passed that easily from one continent to another. And from elsewhere in the world. almost certainly. Before the Russians traded on the pacific coast, there were Chinese merchants. This is not a wild theory but the artifacts can be seen in museum collections. -j-

....what makes me confused about Native American hornbows is the fact that they are made without a wooden core.
If it is true that the hornbow comes from Asia via Bering- street to North- America, why did they "forget" the core?

Michael

If you are living in an area without good bow wood, then why bother with it? Most of the literature on bow design tells that the core doesn't do much work anyway. As American Indians were spiritualists, maybe they thought that the bow would be better if it was made from only animal materials.
I'm sure that you could speculate for a very long time as to why they left the core out. Has anyone made a replica American Indian hornbow?

Mike

I?ve been in Idaho, Montana and North Dakota, in the former homelands of the Hidatsa and Nez Perce? people. There is excellent bow-wood growing enough.
I guess the Native Americans have not been more spiritual or religious than other ancestors of us. In former times there was no break between daily life and religious activities like nowadays. But for sure there is some truth in what Mike is posting, I remember a traditional American Indian word telling that a hornbow is a perfect robbing animal.

So where did they "forget" the core?

Mike, I?ve done 2 American Indian hornbows, accidently I?ve just posted some notes about it at the topic: antler bows(Making bows, arrows....), if you want to know some more detailed info, just ask me.

Michael

As American Indians were spiritualists, maybe they thought that the bow would be better if it was made from only animal materials.

With primitive tools making multiple laminates tightly fit is a lot of work. If you have horn thick enough, why bother. The only thing you get from wood core is some weight loss.

Wood laminates are easy to make only, if you have planer...

If you have entire group, making their living from making as good bows as possible, then it is entirely different matter.

Michael and all; Don't think about Asian bows coming to the new world as much as the technology of Asian bows coming. NA archery, as any other group, is a conglomeration of techniques suited to the materials and purpose of the place. There is precidence for the making of horn and sinew bows among the Persians too.

But as jkekoni states, the joining of a flat core to a flat horn slat at a fireside camp was probably a technical impossibility, certainly as they proved, unnecessary. A sheep horn and sinew bow is almost unbreakable, though the sheep horn never tires of trying to return to a curved shape. Mine live their lives tied to a form.

This is just one unusual feature of NA archery. For instance, sinew backed bows are not that common worldwide but were a common occurrence in the plains. Worldwide, the common wood bow is a D-bow but not among NA nomads where double-curve is the norm. Several novel methods of fletching are seen. And what about the late occurence of all technological discoveries? The was no Copper age, no Bronze age, and no Iron age in North America. From Stone age to industrial Revolution in a single step.

Thank you all, the whole matter seems to be clearer now to me.

Jack, you mention some Persian horn- sinew laminated bows. Do you know more about these bows? Maybe paintings?

To return to the topic: I?ve found out that in the pampas of Argentine and Uruguay bows similiar to the long wooden bows of the Indians in North America had been in use. There is one to be seen in the Grayson Collection.
At the edges of the Argentian pampas osage- orange is growing, this has been told to me by a Swiss carpenter who has worked there for some month and has done some of my bow- classes. The wood is highly estimated by Argentian carpenters for stairs. The Swiss carpenter has cutted some logs for bow- making, next year they will be dry enough.

Michael



Michael

Redhawk, I do not have the reference at hand about the horn and sinew only Persian bows. The article was a long one about bow making in Central Asia. It seems as though each city had its specialty bowmakers for their particular materials and climate. No picture.

Osage is believed to be indigineous to the border area between Oklahoma and Texas states. It was extensively planted in the 1920s as a hedge and fence post material. Osage nows grows in many states as far north as New York and across the South. It may have been imported to South America at that time. -j-

I think the "osage" growing in Argentinian pampas is fustic, ie. "Argentinian osage" (Chlorophora tinctoria; formerly Maclura tinctoria, or the same genus as osage orange). The woods are related and look much alike, and fustic, too, was used for bows by the old English bowyers among others. From what I know, fustic is inferior to osage, bow-wise (reported unexpected failures, excessive string follow etc.) But fustic grows much larger and straighter than osage, yielding clear planks of considerable size for carpentry uses, something not typical for gnarly bois d'arc.

Bows very much like Chinese composites in appearance were once used throughout Northern Eurasia. Going eastward from Scandinavia, the bows became progressively more composite-like, with primitive horn composites in use among the (north)easternmost parts of Russia. Nearly all such bows, variously of laminated wood, laminated wood with a sinew backing, and/or a cable back, or laminated, sinew-backed wood with horn or baleen lashed onto the belly, sported large, stiff, Asiatic recurve ears. It is not clear whether these bows of historic Native Siberian / Saami folks are the original composites from which latter Asian forms were derived, or if these bows are relatively late replicas of true composites used by more southern peoples, adapted to the materials and technology of mobile Northern hunters.

In any case, very Asiatic-like bows were used by primitive Asian peoples living right across the Bering Strait, next to Arctic Native Americans.

Nice Inuit composite bow found on the net, I think there is best topic to place the link

http://webprojects.prm.ox.ac.uk/arms-an ... 884.15.29/

BTW all the best and only 10's in New Year 2009

Janek

Tuukka Kumpulainen, says:

It is not clear whether these bows of historic Native Siberian / Saami folks are the original composites from which latter Asian forms were derived, or if these bows are relatively late replicas of true composites used by more southern peoples, adapted to the materials and technology of mobile Northern hunters.

Does anyone have a source who says this?

There is documentation of a horn and sinew only Indian bow made in the form of an opened out crab bow. I think it is included in an article by Doug Elmy in an old volume of the Society of Archer-Antiquaries. The confusion between Indian and Persian happened a lot in older works on weapons.

Mmm. I'm not an historian, but the sami-people, i.e. their ancesters was from asia. I think I've heard. So if the migration is from asia to northern europe ...

Was there migration before the bow was in use? Or after? Or did the bow develop on different places independent of time and place, and the humans?

Thank you Bede

The bow is a technology that could travel independently of its users. In historical times there are indications that bow using people moved with their bows like the Huns, Avars and Magyars.

The Inuit also are known to have been moving East. When Leif Erikson was in Greenland there were no Inuit there, but by the thirteenth century they were colonising the West coast.