Who's Bow is BEST???

Flynn,
try this link to an Atarn newsletter
http://www.atarn.org/letters/ltr_jan03.htm
scroll down a bit and you'll find a comparison of some of Grozer's bows, and one by Lucas Novotny.

I myself own a Grozer Scythian and Grozer Turkish bow (the base model). I am pleased with both, but the Turkish bow more so because of the shaped handle, which is always comfortable to shoot with. On the downside though, I can never get the Turkish bow's brace height correct, if I follow the advised 8", it looks too low, and if I have it at 8.5" it acts as if its too high. So if you want one of those, I'd advise you make sure it comes with the original string (mine didn't), so you know the correct brace height.
Neither Scythian bow or Turkish bow stacks before their maximum draw length is reached.
As your in Devon, you could order a Grozer through the Honiton Quicks outlet, if you wish to test it before buying.

Hope this helps.

Lucas Novotny is #1 Saluki bow is the best, I'm 120% for sure... Hungarian bows are furnatures,, FURNATURES.... can be shot, yet not fast enough and looks ugly

Hi Flynn,

I take your criteria as being draw length, sweetness, robustness and economy.
I recommend Kassai's laminated Falcon's/('high tech Hun') for economy(I bought from him in situ. @ E220), lightness, speed long draw length(ca.34in) and lack of stacking. They are in my experience, very robust. I am a novice and find these great value, forgiving and stable. They are designed for horse archery and handles are crafted to ease arrow grasp. I have a 39 and a 43# and they are sweet to draw. Both mine are without colour or decoration and appear functional.
If you prefer a shorter, more efficient and less utilitarian look, then I suggest Grozer's laminated Assyrian. A hundred euro dearer than the Falcon if bought direct, but very good looking, light, 34in long draw, no stack and whip fast. Mine's a 40# and while less forgiving than the Falcon due to power/dimension ratio it's robust and a real favourite.
Slightly dearer is Csaba's TRH Turk, also short,light, fast, sweet and with a long draw. I love mine. Neither of these of course are designed for Kassai style arrow grasp.
I have fibreglass/resin bows from both suppliers- much heavier, seemingly slower, harsher but robust, good looking and long drawing.
You should research Korean Hwarang bows sourced from Thomas Duvernay. Cheaper than the above mentioned, long drawing, extraord- inarily sweet and very very fast. My 45# is in a class of its own and its properties are truly remarkable. It is easier to draw than the 39&40# bows I have from Csaba Grozer! It requires more respectful treatment and birch bark facing must be handled with care. This bow is described as being akin to a horn bow in characteristics. Very good value.
Lukas Novotny's bows are hailed by all as masterpieces, but they are much dearer.

Yokhua
Beware of such comments.
What does it mean furnature?
S?ndor
Hungary

Furniture = chair, table, etc. A 'slightly' biased response :?
I second sean regarding the Kassai Hun model, smooth, stable, robust and accurate. I've experienced no stacking with this bow.

furnatures means turely functuinal,yet still long way to reach the standared of grace, beauty and works of art....
I have both bows from Hungrian bowyer and Saluki, and I am able to make horn bows which reach every standared I said...
I recomend you try them both then you will know the bows from Saluki are much better....

That's what I really mean..

Actually, your previous post sounded like an oversimplification (a very bad one) - just like stating (based on the look of the "genuine Mongolian bows" on ebay) that "Asian bows are for decoration purposes only".
There are thousands of archers who can't build their own bows or afford a horn-wood sinew composite. They seem to be quite happy with their mass-produced bows (Hungarian bows or others). And they shoot much better than me - or maybe than you.
Best, Szabi

OK! I'm not talking about hornbows in this case.. I'm talking about the fiberglass laminated bows from Saluki... Same modern materials,yet just much better then Hungarian bows...
Just try them both first then you will know...
I'm not against anyone or support anyone... Here the tittle is "Which bow is the best".... I just share my experiences...

That's all, If you haven't try Saluki's bows, how do you know??

well, I'm not talking about Salukis, what I don't like is the statement about Hungarian bows. That's oversimplification.

Flynn wrote:

Hello fellow archers, who do you think has the best bows?

I have used a Kassai (which stacked up at 30") so im looking for a differnt one but whos.

I have a Kassai buzzard at 30# and my husband has a Kassai Bear at 40# neither of these two bow's stack so maybe you need to look at more?

I do really like the Grozer bow's and have heard good things about them.

Hey guys!
I've got 3 bows. A hornbow composite from mongolia, a raven laminate from Kassai and a TRH Hungarian laminate from Grozer.
While all are amazing looking and functioning bows, my personal favorite is the TRH Grozer, so smooth and absolutely no hand shock. The Kassai bow has a slight hand shock even at 28#. This is just personal experience from the bows I have.

i am posting some pictures of my hungarian bows just to disprove the notion that they are furnitures. These are not fiberglass bows nor are they traditional hornbow composites. They are both laminates. Both look great, are very fast and a joy to shoot. and they weigh absolutely nothing.
cheers. And correct me if I am mistaken, but a full-blown, custom built bow from Saluke runs at least 1000$?

Grozer TRH Hungarian
[external image]
same bow, strung
[external image]

Kassai Laminated Raven
[external image]
detail of the limb lamination
[external image]

last but not least,
check out this site, www.eastern-archery.com
this guy is not a bowyer, he is a supplier, but he has quite a few bowyers represented.

cheers
Greg

And since i've decided to dominate this post haha.
The Grozer TRH Hungarian doesn't stack until 34" or so,
My drawlength is at about 32.5"

and the bow is fast
once again to disprove "the furniture" comment
i've posted this video before,
u can see how fast it is.
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fusea ... 2038366891

So! All of you are Hungrians.... no wonder.. And no one of you have experience of Saluki's bows...
Same comment like before, Try Saluki bows first then give comment like me....
Saluki's bows are much better....

GALAHAD: Is there someone else up there we could talk to?

:evil:

Yokhua,
from what you have posted it seems to me that you think that Saluki's bows and 'Hungarian' bows are comparable entities. What you are comparing is one entire set of bow designs and a single bowyer's work. By making the sweeping statement, that Hungarian bows are 'furniture' and ugly, ignores that fact that grace is objective. One archer may think a bow is pleasing to look at, whereas the next may think it is horrible.
There is nothing wrong with this, after all, everyone has is allowed an opinion. However, a 'Hungarian' bow could be any bow made in Hungary, made by a Hungarian or made to a Hungarian design. You will alienate many people by stating that the 'Hungarian' bow is ugly, and 'furniture' simply because they do not all stand up to one outstanding bowyer's work.

If however, you compared single bows alone, and explained why X bowyer's bows were better than Y bowyer's bows, you would avoid your gross generalisation.

I hope you do not take this as a personal affront.

Flynn, I hope you do not mind your thread being hijacked yet again.

Regards

teehee Szabi Nagy (is it Szabi or Nagy, I know Hungarian put their last name first, but i am not sure)

anyway, i doubt the intended person got the reference, but just letting you know it did not go to waste haha

I concur with M Hardman.
What exactly are you calling a HUNGARIAN bow, are your comparing individual bowyers or shape of the bow or the design. The intricate design is not appealing to everyone, some people prefer a more simple natural look. Please don't over-generalize.


Flynn:
What makes a best bow is really a broad category which includes many personal preferences.
Can ya give us some narrower criteria.
i.e. How good it looks, how heavy it is, Price, draw length, Speed, stacking, how culturally authentic it is (good luck with this one =P), what materials it is build from. and so on.
This specifications should decrease the ammount of generalizations like "furniture" or "wall decoration" that you will get in return.
hope this helps,
cheers

M Hardman wrote:

As your in Devon, you could order a Grozer through the Honiton Quicks outlet, if you wish to test it before buying.

Hope this helps.

I think, this is the most important point. Choose the bow that feels good in your hands. A personal example - when I was thinking about buying my first bow, I checked a lot of websites (bowyers's pages, bow tests, forums, etc). I decided to go for a certain bow from a certain bowyer. However, as I tried this bow and others in the archery shop, finally I got a bow from a different bowyer.
Szabi
(p.s. thanks Greg! :) )

I totally agree, testing out different bows, by different makers is paramount to finding the right bow for individuals, especially for mounted archery.
Between my husband and myself we have 3 bows.
A Kassia Hun (32#) I bought in 2002 - weighs more than the other bows, is larger, slower and harder to manoeuvre around a horse than the others, stacks with some handshock. Also, from a woman's perspective, the handgrip is kinda large/bulky, I can only fit 3 or 4 arrows in my bow hand when using it.
Then I got a wood laminate Saluki Bow (42#). Light, easy to manoeuvre, fast, slim, I could go on and on. As someone said they come quite dear, but in my opinion are totally worth the money.
The 3rd bow I just got my husband in the spring. It's SKB Samick Sports Traditional Korean Recurve (40#), also a wood laminated. Bought for just over $200 cad it's also light, small and easy to manoeuvre, fast, a really good bow, but not a Saluki! The only real drawback to this bow is that it says "SKB Samick Sports" in large text down the lower front of the bow.

I've shot some other bows as well (Grozier, Toth, Spitfire), but none have impressed me as much as my Saluki or the SKB.

The Saluki bow pictured is indeed very nice. Does anyone have pictures of any other models? The bows featured on the Saluki website, the Ibex, Oryx and Turk are ugly (IMO) by comparison.

David Gray has some on his site,
but i don't know when it was last updated
http://www.krackow.com/asia.html

Thanks Greg, I've seen the Krakow site and where I can appreciate that some will gaze in wonder at those bows, they do not appeal to me. Maybe it's all the intricate decoration, or maybe the shape, I honestly could not say but the Turkish bow is just not for me.
As has already been stated, bow choice is a personal thing and the archer has only to be guided by what feels right for him/her.

For what it's worth, only recently I ordered a Falcon1 laminate Hun by Kassai for my wife.

No worries =P
I do prefer a simpler look of horn and wood myself as well. I do not mind the decorations on those bows, but with price tags as those, i would be afraid to shoot them. Not my idea of a beginner bow.
I've shot a Falcon, great bow. It was actually the first bow I tried, it totally got me hooked. Swift arrows for your wife ;) I am sure she will love it.

On a different note: I have a Mongolian bow (horn-sinew-wood composite) build in Mongolia and a TRH Hungarian from Grozer (in TRH laminations aside from wood there are 2 artificial substitute layers, one behaves like horn and one like sinew). The thing is, these 2 bow are so different from each other. While I prefer my Grozer, the mongolian appeals to me in different ways. For example, The Grozer feels fast when you shoot it but compared to the Mongolian composite it feels like a toy. Shooting the mongolian is almost empowering. Now don't get me wrong, Grozer bow is no toy, just relative to my Mongolian's power (i think they only differ about 5lbs in draw weight).
I guess I typed all that up to once again emphasize the point that you must try different bows and bowyers to find your true love (or loves =P).

This thread is getting complicated. I can't help adding to it. I bought a Groser Chinese bow a few months ago and, though I am going to make some cosmetic changes (the string bridges), it shoots quite well. I am short so full draw is only about 32 inches. It doesn't appear to stack and it allows me to practise with a Qing cylindrical thumb ring at the drawlength and string angle that is appropriate.

However, I have drawn original Qing bows and they are smoother and more comfortable to shoot. In that sense we have to make compromises between what we can afford and what we want. This bow is a perfect practice bow for me, but there are differences in the way it looks and performs from the original. I make the compromise because, unlike Yokhua, I cannot make or repair an original, but I do want to practise in the Qing style because I find it to be very good exercise.

One of the people I shoot with has a Saluki bow like the one in the picture and it is very smooth to shoot. I am hoping to get some spare time to speed test and compare some of the bows I have and calculate their efficiencies, but don't hold your breath.

What one can afford is probably the greatest governing factor here.

Incidentally, Bede, what cosmetic changes are you going to do with the string bridges? Just curious.

Hi

I played with lot of different off the shelf bows and custom made for me, natural composites and modern materials. If someone will ask me which one (modern) is the best for me answer is simple - Turkish TRH. I have two of them for competition and one natural for orthodox gatherings  and for “Sunday shooting”. All three (around 60@34)really works perfectly but I can shot TRH in all weather conditions: rain, snow and extreme hot weather. The other thing is show me other budget (370euro) bow which gives 70 m/s and not gets stiff like bone on more than 32 draw ...
All the best
Janek

Hi TradArcher,
Do you have any pictures of these Grozer bows. I own a TRH hungarian, and might get a TRH Turkish next. Do any of your bows have decorations?

I am going to replace the angular wooden string bridges with antler ones modeled on the Qing bow I have. The Qing bridges are more rounded and look less likely abrade the string than the narrow ones supplied.

Hi Greg
Here is link to my web albums
http://picasaweb.google.com/tradarcher
I took some pics, unfortunatelu charger for my camera is at my work but I did with my phone so quality could be better :).

Also you can visit Grozer shop, here is a page with Turkish bows http://archery.maupa.org/?page=15

All the best
Jan

great looking bows!
Thanks for sharing the pics

TradArcher,
You say your TRH Turkish is making 70 m/s? Can you tell me the rest of the specifications of that setup?

What draw weight at what draw length shooting what total weight of arrow makes that 70 m/s?

Thanks.
-ROb

Dear Rob

TRH 85#, 16s FF, ACC 3-49/390 or Cartel X-Pert 580 cant remember now but probably Cartel fletched with SpineWings, 31,5" draw, 3 fingers. Chrono was checked at (Im not sure correct english name for that institution) Criminal Police Ballistic Center. Tests were made at Jarek Bełza's place. I think that Adam Karpowicz will agree that Jarek's tests are probably most reliable on the planet :)

The dark one (63#) up on the picture shots 415m with ACE, as I remeber shots 57 m/s with carbon and FF.

White one on the bottom was custom made for me but I had no chance yet to test it with chrono but it is damn fast. It is brand new, shot once , waiting for small cosmetics and I will make a new string.

Tests of penetration on other gallery were made with natural composite (middle on pic). My favorite one but not used for competition.

Largest gallery is from 24h shooting competition (I slept only 1,5h). After twice around the clock game I almost died but we had really lot of fun there :D


All the best
Janek

Oh jeez....THAT'S why it seemed so fast....a gorilla class draw weight...LOL. Ok, just been looking for real speed numbers on the TRH series or any other Hungarian bows. Looks like (unfortunately) that if the TRH series is the fastest of the fast made in Hungary, they're all relative dogs. I'm looking for something else in a short "horsebow" style that will even hold a candle to my Hwarang.....I thought maybe Grozier's offerings would do so, but it sure doesn't sound like it. Thanks much for the info anyway.
-Rob

form my viewpoint,the bow i like it , it is best ! enough! :)

Rob,
Speed of cast is not necessarily everything, is it? I was very tempted by the Hwarang as a new bow for my wife. It is small and light and reports of its performance are very good. Now practicality has to be considered also...
We are Field Archers, shooting in woodland and quite often (in 2007, all but 2 tournaments) in the rain. How well the birch bark covering of the Hwarang would hold up in these conditions I do not know but I suspect it would not be long before the bow deteriorated, in appearance at least.
The TRH Hun is light, performs well, is easily fast enough and can handle the elements.

Jan,

What type is this bow?
http://picasaweb.google.com/tradarcher/ ... 0484531122

Ginni,
It is Wind Fighter, very popular and quite cheap korean bow, surprisingly lot of wood inside. Very light and good for mounted archery. Can be drawn smoothly and long. One terrible thing is lack used - looks like Hyundai, metallic black sprinkling on the sun and red back. Better pics are here http://www.luksport.pl/sklepik/product_ ... cts_id=540

With TRH I wrote in previous post is little correction I read now, it is 80#.

Janek

I think this is the new model of Kaya bow. I am very curious about this bow, how work, how stable is, how fast. You can make a comparisson with Grozer trh?

It have a very reflexed shape.

You are right abou the finish, this bow looks like my skis. :D

No, speed is not EVERYTHING....but it is very important. I don't see the sense in intentionally buying a dog. I mostly hunt with my bows, but have yet to find anything in the "horsebow" style that is suitable performance-wise for hunting. I am not about to have to shoot a bunch more weight just to use a short Asian/Steppe style bow. I find it unusual that chronographing these bows is so rare....everyone speaks only in subjective terms that, while they sound nice, mean squat.

Of course I would give up a little speed for shootability, but remember...in my case.....the Asian bow I am looking for has to outperform my American stickbows to be of any use to me hunting....and that's a darn tall order.

Still shopping...... :lol:
-Rob

Ginni
I found Kaya on the net and it really looks like a WindFighter with different finish. WF is available in Poland since 2 or 3 years. They made few modifications during that time. The bow is delicate and ultralight, you feel it as made of paper. It is pretty fast but I heard opinions that is not so stable, personally I didnt. Ive seen some with slightly twisted limbs.
Janek

Orda Khan
I agree with you, speed is important but not most important. For me best bow is one you feel it and gives you pleasure of shooting. When is smoothly drawn stable during shot and when you cant feel the shot in bowhand and of course accuracy :)

Janek

Rob,

I mostly hunt with my bows, but have yet to find anything in the "horsebow" style that is suitable performance-wise for hunting.

You are saying that your hwarang is not suitable for hunting because of his low speed or performance?

hai ginni, your bows is hwarang so good than my SKB, but it seemed i am got more pleasure after i use right arrows nock, are you still has some trouble use hwarang?

it seemd before 20 years ago, we are called comrade ginni and comrade jiao :D

You are right, comrade Jiao! :D

I don't have now problems with my bow, not with my technique, only with time. I have no time for shooting. Thomas book was very helpful to correct my left hand technique.

Yeah, I suppose that didn't come out quite right...the Hwarang's performance is good....the grip sucked, but that's because my hands are pretty big and there was about a finger and a half hanging off the bottom. I stripped it off and am in the process of putting something more useful on there. The suede is too "sticky" for a good, consistent grip as well.

The only other problem with it is, due to the combination of short brace height and width at the pass (almost a full inch), it is VERY difficult to get good flight right off the bow...in other words, tuning for good flight is near impossible. I understand that they produce good flight at distance, but that's because the fletching has had a chance to stabilize the arrow. For example, I can tune any western bow I have owned to shoot a "bullet hole" through paper. The Hwarang (and I have tried literally HUNDREDS of shaft, length, tip weight, and fletching combinations) cannot produce a good paper tear...or short range tune. That's just the simple truth of it's design. It's not a poor design or poorly built....it's just not designed to produce the results I am after. Don't get me wrong....the Hwarang is a super design, well executed, at a great price. It's just not going to wash as a hunter for me without extensive modification. Now if I could spec out a custom from this bowyer.....hmmm....we'd be on to something...LOL.

So, in the end....you're right. I mis-spoke about not finding a suitable performer. What I should have said is that I'd like to find a suitable performer with the shooting characteristics that lend it to hunting use.

Any thoughts?
-Rob

Rob
Why not to invest in bow designed for it like Black Khan from Border etc. Of course shooting from traditional bows is exciting but maybe you need something other?
The other thing is maybe you should play with video camera and rework your release form?
Janek

Yeah, I'll be the first to admit that I could probably have better form and a crisper release off the ring. I don't mind putting in the work to do that. That'll come.

But the point is that I want the convenient size, use of the ring, lightness of the bow, etc. that comes with this style of archery for hunting.....maybe it's a pipe dream, but I don't think so. Maybe I'll have to bite the bullet and order a Saluki without a window or a Spitfire. I dunno.

-Rob

yokhua wrote:

So! All of you are Hungrians.... no wonder.. And no one of you have experience of Saluki's bows...
Same comment like before, Try Saluki bows first then give comment like me....
Saluki's bows are much better....

I agree with yokhua. Salukis are the best bows in the USA by far, and the top 5 in the world. BUT, they are not economical at all. He asks 800 dollars for a fiberglass bow. And 2400 dollars for a horn bow!!! Not including the custom options. He lives a few states away and Im planning on visiting him when I get into college in a couple years, or maybe even this summer. He says that Im welcome to try his bows. I've talked to him, and hes a very nice person.

Rob,
I understand you desire to fine tune your arrows. Are you shooting unfletched short range at a paper sheet or are you using some other method?

What is the shortest range you normally hunt at?

guys ... the last post of Rob was made over a year ago ... I think today he own a big riffle that tear any paper (in the proper way) at close range or at any range ...

Yokhua is right. Sorry Hungarians . I understand your pride in your epoxi bow production . Yours bow fabrication have a positive fact , that thanks this epoxi-polyester bows mass production is asian composite tipe bow much more popular in the world. But her we talking about better bow ! Every conversation like this is about better thing not about mass -middle quality thig.(If i talking about best cars i dint mean Warburk or Trabant but -Porsche or Ferrari...) I have too feu bows from Grozer , because 7-8 years ago its somthing new for me. Ok. comon in base. Lukas Novotny is from the late Czechoslovakia . He friendly contactid with Czech bowmaster" ARNI", who creatid his bows clous quality and design like Saluki and - more cheaper! See here maybe somthing was good for you.
http://luky.arni.cz

I have seen Novatny bows and they are beautiful. He is a first rate craftsman, I admire his work and one should expect to pay for good quality.

That said I would rather shoot with any bow that I made than another's. I would no more pay for another's bow than pay someone to shoot for me. Nor would I criticize for anyone else doing what they prefer.

In my little club we compete with bows and arrows which we make. Newbies can shoot with whatever but when they start to score well we make them make their own. We don't do plastic nocks or bows with synthetic materials, no arrow rests. This is a lot of work but the contest is more meaningful.

We had a little arrow making class and these are the FIRST ARROWS EVER that Jim made.

Very nice arrows and quiver too. I know how much work goes into making bamboo arrows and I expect Jim would soon become very frustrated having to replace losses or damaged arrows after shooting courses such as the one at my club. Likewise an archer who has made himself a wonderful horn bow or another who has spent a month's wages on a bow from Novotny, when their bows have suffered in two years of rain in Field Archery competitions (like we just endured 2007 and 2008)
Unless the archer is going to switch to modern FITA type equipment (no thanks!!) he/she is governed by many factors, weather wallet and others. When this is considered, the best practical bow for the job becomes more important than the best bow.

lol
Who's Bow is BEST???
it's my competitor's bow . always .
you know that movie ... "when you came with bare hands , he bring a knife , when you have a knife , he bring a bat and if you bring a bat he has a gun ..." ?
when I come with 40#Toth , he bring a 60#Kassai , I with 65# , he come with 70# , I pull a traditional fighter , he draw a hwarang ... and I'am sure that if I end up with a hwarang , he bring one too , but stronger ...
I am in no win situation here ...
Who's Bow is BEST???
definitely ... not mine !!!

Those arrows are fanatstic. Who's bow is best? Boy that is some question. I think it is whatever the archer wants. I like something different in my bow than what you would like. For me it is about the culture of the bow and having fun with the bow. As far as bowyers I truly believe those who make Asian style bows have a different agenda then lets say Black Widow or Bear, the agenda of an Asian bowyer is to import that culture into the archers hands. For that reason it is hard to say who's are the best Kassai has done so much for mounted archery, Grozer bows look like they are right from a museum, Saluki introduced many in North America to the wonderful Asain style bow, the Hwarang is the closest you can get to having an actual horn bow, and Chris from Spitfire really stands behind his products. I guess the best bow is whatever you are happy with on that day.

Well, we don't shoot in the field with these arrows. We shoot at targets when an arrow cannot be lost or damaged. But I also have field sets but do not want to loose them. It is not the decoration that takes so long but everything else.

Tim would want me to show his arrows. His brother has the Macaw. We discuss individualising the arrows subtly to check for accuracy and Tim got a little carried away. These are Tim's first ever set of arrows.

I hope you get a kick out of this. His arrows are crested from left to right; Tim and his wife, his brother, his cat, a red Flicker (bird), a cardinal (bird), and his Mom. He arranges them in his quiver and shoots them in order. He makes small adjustments for each arrow. (crazy ?) The cardinal arrow makes a kind of noise. His Mom is most likely to score. Whatever!

I can relate to that Jack, I named each arrow in my first set. Don't take me the wrong way, I appreciate all the love and care poured into all of these arrows, the point I was making was relative to the topic. 'Whose bow is best?'
The past two years in Wales have been possibly the wettest on record and my club is a field archery club. Such great fun on a fine day, walking through the woods and shooting arrows. When it's pouring down? Not quite the same. Two thousand dollars plus for a Novotny bow to ruin it in the rain. Hours of attention on a wonderful set of bamboo arrows. I spend long hours of painstaking love and attention matching arrows for spine and weight and hand cut fletchings and coat after coat of lacquer. These all have plastic nocks and losing or breaking one is like losing a family member. But they will get lost or broken, so you must compromise. I've rear ended and ruined five arrows from the last three sets I made, if these were horn nocked I'd be suicidal.
Much as I'd love a beautiful composite bow, I'd be restricted in the amount I use it and so I compromise with a replica (that can endure weather extremes) and this is the best bow for me.

I have to agree that you value the bow by what you are using it for and how it performs that specific task.

A modern materials bow in bad weather and rough conditions is often the best choice. We cannot all replace composite bows in the way bowyer can unless we have a lot of money for our hobby. It is the same with arrows. I do not necessarily shoot nice wood or bamboo arrows when practising at my club. For practice, any well made arrows will do. I have seen some field shoots where it is sure that you will lose arrows. There is no point in using your best hand made arrows for that.

However, I do enjoy shooting my composite bows and I like to make better and more authentic arrows. It is natural to strive to do better. It is not the equipment that makes a good archer. A good archer makes the equipment look good.

Bede wrote:

This thread is getting complicated. I can't help adding to it. I bought a Groser Chinese bow a few months ago and, though I am going to make some cosmetic changes (the string bridges), it shoots quite well. I am short so full draw is only about 32 inches. It doesn't appear to stack and it allows me to practise with a Qing cylindrical thumb ring at the drawlength and string angle that is appropriate.

However, I have drawn original Qing bows and they are smoother and more comfortable to shoot. In that sense we have to make compromises between what we can afford and what we want. This bow is a perfect practice bow for me, but there are differences in the way it looks and performs from the original. I make the compromise because, unlike Yokhua, I cannot make or repair an original, but I do want to practise in the Qing style because I find it to be very good exercise.

One of the people I shoot with has a Saluki bow like the one in the picture and it is very smooth to shoot. I am hoping to get some spare time to speed test and compare some of the bows I have and calculate their efficiencies, but don't hold your breath.

What type of model was your chinese bow, and was it manchurian?
Also what are the effiecientcies?

My bow was a standard Qing bow with sharkskin covered ears and a birch bark covered back. It has small fish skin mosaic decorations but was not as elaborately decorated as some of the bows we see from recent times.

I know this is an old topic but I just wanted to put my opinion in: I have the Kassai Panther and I am really impressed with the bow. Unstrung it has a nice "C" shape. It has a very smooth draw, no hand shock and is fast. Shooting with the ring I am able to pull to 30" without any stacking. I really enjoy this bow. Now this is considered one of Kassai top of the line bows so I don't know how it compares with a Grozer top of the line or other bows such as Spitfire, or Saluki but I think it is a great bow. As I said in the begining just an opinion.

If you can ,buy bow from L.Novotny.

I have two bows coming from Lukas Novotny hopefully they should be here in the next 4 months give or take a bit, hopefully sooner .
One is his fiberglass composite Damascus with his "horsebow grip" and the other , the bow of my dreams a horn bow of the North Indian Crab bow style.
To say that I am totally jazzed about both of them is an understatement.
Alan

You finally getting your crab bow!!!!!!!!
I remember when you were first asking about it in old posts!!!
I am so happy for you! Now all you have to do is make some equally beautiful mughal arrows to match it! Be sure to decorate your bamboos with oil paints with indian designs, that really makes them breathtakers!

What are the specs of the horn bow?

I am not sure of the bow length fairly short, but it will draw 80# give or take a bit at 29-30 inches. I draw 271/2 " with my long bow and when shooting a bow with a thumb ring I draw 29-30".
alan

Alan,

I can't wait to see a pic of you at full draw with your dramatic looking bow! The Crab Bow design is really something.

Look forward to seeing your new bow as well Paul. Would really like to start making new arrows for it now , but think that I will put it off till I have the bow in my hands.
Alan

I just finished a replica (fiberglass) bow and I posted the pictures up on...


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Jhoneil it gets funnier everytime I see that picture. Again my offer from the other forum stands if you get distracted with that beauty I will be willing to take that masterpiece off your hands.

This past weekend three of my friends and I got together to "test" some Asian style bows and I just wanted to share the "results" (more opinion really) with you all. The bows we tested were: Grozer Crimean Tatar #55, Grozer Turkish Hornbow #45, Kassai Panther #40, Seige Work Creations Magyar #45, and a #50 Saluki Turk. The bows were judged on the following: trueness to the original Asian form, hand shock, noise, feel in the hand, and general "likeability" of the bow. We did not have a chrono, nor did we have a large enough area to test flight the bows. The bows were all shoot with the ring and with the same 30" arrows. The bows were shot on a rotation bassis so fatigue would not be a factor on some tests.

The following is our results: The bow with the smoothest draw was the Kassai Panther. The bows that we found the most true to form were the Grozer bows. The fastest was the Grozer Turkish hornbow. The Saluki and the Siege Work Creations bow were the lightest in the hand as their limbs are not leather wrapped.

The negatives were the bow that was less like a true Asian style bow was the Saluki Turk as it had a shelf on both sides of the riser and the grip made it difficult to perform the follow through properly. The loudest of the bows which was hard to tell was the Siege Work Creations bow. The bow with the most handshock was the Saluki this maybe because we were shooting with the same arrow for all the bows.

Overall WE decide that the Kassai Panther was the "best" in this group for the performance and money. The Grozer Turkish hornbow was the best performer overall but the money and care needed to tend this bow make it a less likely choice for the masses. We found the other bows to kind of "lump" in with the rest as they each had good points and bad.

Overall it was just a good time shooting bows.

JBL ,
when you say fastest is this a subjective view or was there a chronograph involved?
alan

Allan-like I said everything was subjective because we didn't have a chrono. It was more fun than anything else; and also sparked that whole thing of what do YOU look for in an Asian style bow.

I?m lucky owner of one of Saluki bows. Itś Turkish hybrid bow.
http://nasralnahrob.rajce.idnes.cz/Ture ... h_bow1.JPG
http://nasralnahrob.rajce.idnes.cz/Ture ... h_bow2.JPG
http://nasralnahrob.rajce.idnes.cz/Ture ... h_bow3.JPG
http://nasralnahrob.rajce.idnes.cz/Ture ... _bow_8.JPG
The bow looks very similar than hornbow. It has very sweet draw without any stackink and although his poundage is in child size 65 pounds, velocity with 32 gram arrow is over 200 fps. With 25 grams turkish arrow 23O fps
Bow has small handle for my hand, but it was my mistake, that I didńt inform Lukas about size of my hand. Using mushamba problem was finished.
Arrows are very fast with big accuracy and target shooting for long distances is very pleasant.

Saluki laminated bows are not replicas, but only Asiatic inspiration.

I thing, that it is impossible to compare Hungarian mass production and custom bows. It is very diferent quality and price level.

Most of Hungarians bows are optical imitation of historical bows and in the most of cases thea are copiing design for heavy bows in child draw weights. External form is more important than mechanical character. They are bows for theatre, not for shooting.

Mr. Kassaiś bows are for horse archery and for quickly shooting for short distances and some of Mr. Grozers bows have quite credible historical design, but in Hungaria there are beter bowyers but without public relations.

I had been trying several Kassais and Grozers bows. Kasais bows was long for me , but its my problem, very slow, but with smooth draw. All of them had special Kassais design- not historical and very massive siahs not corespondent with low draw weight.
From Grozers bows I was shooting last year the best was "Asyrian model" in TRH version. In 60 pounds was velocity of 32 grams arrow about 180 fps. Its quite well.
Hornbow turkish bow in 70 poudns had design as "darp bow" . Very robust sals, bash. Smooth draw , but velocity of 32 grams arrow about 180 fps. Its few for bow with this poundage. Craft level was very few.
But all these bow are very cheap and its easy to offer them. Its very good way for beginers. In Czaba offer is child turkish base bow in draw weights 25-50 lbs, and it loks very well.

Misa was litlle modest. From this what i know about that bow, i think , this bow was maybe pretendent to world rekord between all world modern replicas. Bow is made vithout fieberglass or carbon. Lukas sayd, that he can made him in original very short versions from 44 in (!), vith 28 to 32 draw lenght . Bow is lighter in mass than hornbow and very fast (maybe like tru hornbow) . 120 lb is no problem... Maybe first time in history modern materials can changed old natural materials. Looks very interesting ! :shock:

Now that is a nice looking bow. It is very different then the "Turk" design we shot the other day, and looks like a true Turkish bow. The bow we shot the other day kind of looked like a Western recurve with siyahs and a shelf on both sides.

I really like the Turkish designs of Grozer. Kassai bows all do have very large siyahs. What I like about the Panther is when it is unstrung it forms a "C" shape and has a very smooth draw.

The only Saluki I have ever shoot is the Turk model with the dual shelf and it just didn't "feel" like a traditional Asian style bow. No knock on Saluki it is just this praticular model was not what I am used to as far as a bow shoot with a thumb draw. I would have to try more of his bows to justify their higher cost.

I have had the good fortune to shoot 6 or 7 different bows crafted by Lukas including one of his horn bows and they were all extremely smooth on the draw and quite fast.
For myself in any case the Saluki bows are about as good as they come. A bit spendy yes but very fine bows and for me worth the cost.
Alan

I would like to try more of his bows because I really appreciate his workmanship. I strictly shoot thumb draw so I am most interested in a bow that performs with that standard. I know that many love his bows and I am sure there is a reason for their loyalty; I just did not see the performance in this particular bow/model. I also have never shoot a thumb ring with a bow that has a shelf so I might not have been getting the clean release that I was getting with the other bows.

I shoot a long bow as well and use split fingers with it, but shoot the Asian style bows exclusively with a thumb ring. All of the Saluki bows that I have shot were without any arrow shelf. I do have a friend that has a Saluki Damascus with the horse bow grip and he shoots with split fingers and it performs very well.
Alan

Mysa, that is a fabulous looking bow.
Alan

Yes. And its probably the best bow in my life.
On June we have been visiting bogenmesse in Germany and I was a honour to shoot Saluki bows Damascus, Ibex, Scytian, Yuan, Tartar, Turkish hornbow....and Turkish hybrid bow. All bows were for German market in small draw weight (I thing, that strongest bow was 58lbs).
I had together only arrows for my weakest bow 65lbs and we was very suprized that in very short time we was capaple to hit 30cm target on 4Om.

Lukas was so kind and made for me and my friend two beautiful Turkish bows . We both are obscedant competitors in 3D Archery and on first competitions we had problem. This bow hasńt balistic curve :lol: For maximum distance (in Czech 27m) I shot over.
I think, that this bows is good investition.
My impression is, that this new technology is shooting better, than most hornbows. Unacustomed for me is very little weight of weapon.
But it is a custom bow and if you want it, you must be patient :wink:
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This new material used in Saluki bows is interesting .

I wonder if it is a phenolic laminate?

http://www.boedeker.com/ilamg_p.htm

who knows ? Only Lukas can answer. But bow is excelent. I mean that this material stop for ever using clasic polyester or epoxi laminates in Hornbows replikas .
Misas experiences is true respectable because he was mulptiple champion in 3D archerery in Chech rep.(exlusive only vith himself made wood arrows !)From this reason maybe Lukas made him (like one of fue or maybe first man in World )this bow for practis shooting. In other hand i was litlle disappointed . Hornbows maybe lost his long time stars position... :cry:

I'm also a fan of Lukas bows. Here are my Saluki hornbows, a Crimean Tartar and a Turkish. Both are fast, smooth, sweet to shoot and as close to the originals as possible. All of that for a high price, of course, but it's the real thing. Also, you can see Reto's trademark quiver :wink:

Great looking bows and quiver. You can really see the craftmenship in those bows. They are the real deal and look much different then the hybrid I shot last week. I have to get a chance to shoot more of his "stuff".

:roll: You dont shot hibrid. You dont shot replica. You shot modern fantasi laminated variation asiatic bows. Thats all.

What I ment was the Saluki with the shelf on both sides was a hybrid because it was suited for both thumb and finger release. I would like to try his other models because they look like the "real" thing.

The Grozer Hornbow was a hornbow made with horn and sinew not one of his laminated things. It was a nice bow and I would like to see it perform against another hornbow.The other Grozer bow was a fiberglass replica and looked exactly like a bow out of a museum.

The Kassai Panther is his creation of what Kassai believes a Magyar bow looked like, but perfroms very well. The bow is also longer than the others at 57" so it is more forgiving.

I also would like to see a Spitfire against these bows. Chris is a great craftsmen and very passionate about his bows. The Hwarang would also be an interesting match-I won't both of those bows.

Bottom line is all of these bows were fun to shoot and none wood end up on the wood pile.

Its look , like i always have only criticizm... but ... another mi friend buy this Grozer hornbow. Not very good bow... If you have chance shoot from real good hornbow, than you maybe understand what i mean. Misa was shoot in Grozer farm vith some of his hornbows. He sayd : I feeling like i shoot vith ice hockey stick... :lol:Ok i stop this negativizm. You pretentious was not so high in real good hornbow, than popular Kassay and Grozer mass production is good for you. good luck.

What did I say -I said I have not shot any other Saluki model other than that Western Recurve with siyahs. My point was there is no way that, that bow is worth almost 1,000 American dollars. It was a fiberglass recurve. The other mass produced bows at least could be shot with a thumb draw and most people could afford the bows and they outperformed that bow. Even the guy who owned the bow said the Kassai was better and could not believe the performance vs cost. Lukas may have just had a bad day and the bow didn't turn out just right.

I had the opportunity to shot my korean bow into a chronograph.
Is 67 lbs @28 in theory, in practice was about 60 lbs@28?.
I shot a 48 grams arrow (about 750 grains) with 215 fps (drawn at 34?).
With another hwarang 52lbs@28? (measured was about 44@28) I shot the same arrow with 183 fps, a 500 grains pyon-jon with 246 fps and a 500 grains carbon (only 32? in lenght) with 210 fps.

Thanks for the info I had heard those bows are speed demons. I also like how light they are in the hand. I have not heard a single bad word about them or the seller.

Ginni,
I don?t know how about Hwarang bows, but I reckon that usually traditional Korean bows meant to be shot with the thumb draw (made with man-made materials) are measured for their draw weight not at 28? but at 30-31? of draw, did you check it?
A couple of weeks ago I shot with my friend?s Windfighter Korean bow, 45# @? (thumb draw) and the draw was really effortless, it felt more like 30#, you could hold it at full draw literally for hours. No stacking, no hand shock, fast, and very lightweight in hand.

For comparison my 50# @28? Grozer Hungarian, at the same time, seemed really harder to draw using the thumb draw (I should mention here that while using the Mediterranean draw I?m comfortable with the higher draw weights, with the thumb draw I still struggle to draw a heavier bow.)

At the same time I also had a try at a Grozer Turkish TRH model, 55#@28?, this bow seemed really ?stiff? to me, with some stacking at the end of the draw and quite unforgiving (though the owner of the bow shoots very accurate with it), with my Hungarian I don?t feel any stacking with a longer draw, but there is hand shock due to the clumsy thick siyahs.

I had a hwarang 60#@28" , a 2 WindFighter 60#@28" and a hungarian Toth fiberglass 40#@28" .
From that bows , actually from all the bows I ever pulled , WindFighter is the smoothest . And the lightest . But not the most efficient . The hwarang is noticeable faster . And WindFighter is not that stable . With 2008 WindFigher model , often my string flew away from my bow . The limbs was too weak . 2009 WindFighter model have somehow stiffer limbs . WindFighter is a bow that not accept too much torsion in the handle . The hwarang is a more stable bow . Have stiffer limbs and acccept a large amount of torsion . After some shooting , the string of the hwarang is always centered , with Fighter is going left . If you do not correct that by hand , you risk that string flew away . 2009 model is better than 2008 model , and the performance is close to hwarang . Is close to hwarang , but is not a hwarang . Is a good bow for his price .
Hungarian Toth fiberglass is not worth mentioned .

Ashbow, I weighted few hwarangs with three different scales and all showed about 6 to 10 pounds less than it was right. I mean my 67 lbs@28 as it was specified is 60@28.
Another 50@28 is about 43@28. So I started to ask myself if the bowyers make the measurement at 28 or at 30 or 32 inches. I don't know but all the hwarangs I measured are less that indicated weight.
It is e good part of this, the performance of bow is related to a less draw force so that involve a bigger efficiency of the hwarang.

At 2009 WTAF everyone was buying bows from Song Mu Gung company. The bows had a number on them corresponding to draw weight. The arrows being sold were 31 to 32" draw length which I assume would produce the draw weight indicated.

Does anyone have an opinion on these bows? The Koryo bow given to me at WTAF 2007 is a real screamer.

Osmiu,
What you write about your WindFighters is pretty much what my friend told me regarding his WindFighter
I see that your experience with WindFighters is pretty much like that of my friend, he also has some problems with limb twist and alignment of the string and he has to correct the bow by hand from time to time. He used to shot a Samick SKB before and told me he can?t be as accurate with the WindFighter as with the SKB, stability problems etc.
I also have heard some complaining about some recently bought WindFigters.
On this short video you can see a 50/55# SKB, a 50# base Hungarian and two WindFigters.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E7wmKsL ... rofilepage

As to the Toth bows and similar, well, I really don?t want to offend anyone but I can?t even stand the look of them, they have particularly ugly siyahs, not mentioning the fancy finish and nearly rope-size bindings. Forgive me Osmiu :wink:

I can somehow stand the siyahs on my Hungarian base Grozer, but still they are too big and weight a lot, those siyahs are all-wood (ash) and the wood isn?t very well selected for quality so probably going thinner and lighter would not be safe though.

As to the marked draw weight, this is probably not that rare that the bow actually pulls less or more, depending on the bowyer/ producer, not mentioning the weighting scale used.
Some time ago we were measuring a couple of Grozer bows supplied for one of the Quicks archery shop. A digital bow-scale was used and the readings were either a couple of pounds higher or lower on each bow than stated, I?m not sure though if the digital scale was really reliable.

I also had a chance to see some recently made prototype Turkish bow (made with fiberglass, I reckon), made by the Turkish bowyer. I don?t know if the bowyer will start making his bows in larger quantities in the near future, but the bow I?ve seen was much more closer in look to a Turkish bow than Grozer bows, it had noticeably slimmer and more elegant siyahs and longer kasans in comparison to Grozer bows.
Now I?m sure I would be rather buying a bow from him than from Grozer?s.
You can see the bow on the top of the picture.

That bow is sharp looking and does look pretty authentic. I love the Turkish bows, and Magyar, and Korean, and Hun I guess I get carried away.

I forgot to tell 2 things :
1. WindFighter must be served in string-bridges area and in above-handle , below-handle area .
2. I have one more bow , a bow that I am particulary very proud , a bhutanese traditional 2 pieces bamboo bow . It's a colection bow for me , a souvenir from WTAF 2009 .

Osmiu, you mean that the bow must be served, you didn't mean the bowstring? Could you tell why it should be the case?

the bow must be served . because is not (and hwarang is ) . because if some arrows break in the bow , WindFighter start to delaminate in siyah area . at least mine did . serving prevent that . extend life of the bow .

Ashbow, that bow pictured abowe and discribed as "made by the Turkish bowyer" looks like Grozer's JUNIOR TURKISH :roll:

Daniel, sorry for the late reply. Thank you for pointing out the similarity. I had the look at the Grozer?s website and indeed you are right, the bow looks exactly like the Grozer Turkish Junior. Now I?m really not sure, I clearly remember that at the event I was shown this bow the Turkish team had brought some Turkish made bows, I remember the discussion regarding the very above bow. I recall not seeing any Grozer logo I think?There was so much happening and talking to several people that maybe some mistake had taken place and some other bow was actually meant, if this indeed is a Grozer bow then I?m sorry for misleading you. I hope I?ll soon get an answer from Turkey regarding the bow.
If I were buying a bow I would go for such a bow because it has much more a closer look (and size) to a original Ottoman bow, this would be when the choice would be influenced by the financial aspect. The relatively low cost of such bows in comparison to, for example, Mysa?s Saluki Turkish would be a factor here, so a brilliant cast wouldn?t be a criterion here for me, I just liked the overall ?look? of the bow.
The Grozer Junior by the way seems to be quite a new model, there were some smaller pictures of the bow on the Grozer site before and the bow looked a bit different.

Hi all,

according to information from Karl Zeilinger, Koreans measure the draw weight of traditional Korean bows at a draw length of 6,5 chi, which corresponds to 80,3 cm or 31,6 inches. I found that this seems true for the Koryo bows ("carbon traditional") by Mr. Park...

Best regards, JJ

osmiu wrote:

I forgot to tell 2 things :
1. WindFighter must be served in string-bridges area and in above-handle , below-handle area .
2. I have one more bow , a bow that I am particulary very proud , a bhutanese traditional 2 pieces bamboo bow . It's a colection bow for me , a souvenir from WTAF 2009 .

Could you post a couple of photos of the bhutanese bow please?

Thanks :-)

Mysa, outstanding arrows as always.
Alan

daryush wrote:

Could you post a couple of photos of the bhutanese bow please?

actually .. I can't . but i will send you a PM with a link where you find pictures of ginni's bhutanese bow , a verry similar with mine .

I just got a return message from Dr Murat ?zveri.

He confirmed my mistake about the bow on the picture I have posted, the bow is, like Daniel wrote, a Grozer Junior. But he was also kind to write me quite a few details of the new bows that are being made now in Turkey. I think that probably this information would be also interesting to others so I asked him if I could post the message here, so here it goes:

?(?)
I've had the new bow made by the Turkish bowyer. It's the bow you see on the picture below (back, in my hand), with our regular Grozer Turkish base bows (front, in the hand of Yavuz).
http://www.tirendaz.com/tr/?page_id=416
Other views of the bow are:
http://www.tirendaz.com/tr/?page_id=416
http://www.tirendaz.com/tr/?page_id=416
(?)
The other two bows were sent by Grozer to Vsetice for testing. The Turkish Junior is a short and good looking bow but is extremely slow. This model is the one which is on the photo you showed me. It may be suitable for kids and younger archers but undoubltly it's not for adults. The other model was a recent invention which I liked better. There are no string bridges unlike the Turkish base model, a feature that I liked; and the bow's energy storing capacitiy is amazing. I have tested all the models and got their force-draw curves. The chronograph measurememts are not completed, so I can't tell you anything about the efficiency but the velocity seems to be awesome too.

So, comparing these two "adult" models, our new model ("tirendaz" is the offical brand name now) is the one which is closest to the original design. Bows between 35-50# of draw weight are very good in efficiency (Mehmet Golhan-the inventor- made a 80# prototype as well as a shorter version for horseback shooting, but I haven't tested them yet). Grozer's new model doesn't look very much like the original but the 35# prototype I have tested stores as much energy as a 40 pound Turkish base does. The energy storing capacities of Turkish base and "tirendaz" is almost similar, but tirendaz is lighter in mass, which would provide better speed (I'll tell you definetly after completion of chronograph measurements).

Murat?

I thought I would also post the link to the article about those new bows made in Turkey:
http://www.tirendaz.com/en/?page_id=295

Interesting news. Turkish bowyer versus Grozer and al Hungary mass production .Maybe good for target (30m) shooting , but not to profesional flight shooting. Natural material is still advantage ... :lol:

Are these tirendaz bows going to be put on general sale, and if so, at what kind of price?

The two new Grozer bows that were examined and compared to the new tirendaz bow. One was the turkish junior, what was the other one?

Hello Ken,
I don't know much about the Turkish bowyer's plans regarding selling his bows, but I know one archer in Poland has just bought a bow of his making recently. I can't quote you any price either, but I hope that someone involved will join the discussion and will explain how the matter is going to develop. Anyway I'll try to find out more.

The other Grozer Trurkish (the bigger one) is also a new model, I can't see it on the Grozer page for bows, but there is one bow on his stock page, which I assume is probably the same model (more closely than the base models resembling originals, and no string bridges):
http://nomadbows.com/stock/index.php?ma ... cts_id=631

Thanks for the link Ashbow.

Looks like Grozer is also selling a new Persian bow. It looks like his old Mughal one did, but a little more streamlined. I'm not sure how accurate it is though, the siyahs aren't very reflexed. But when I get round to ordering my next bow it will be one to consider.

On another note, has anyone here heard of Tumurhuu Batmunkh? He sells modern traditional Mongolian bows, but he has said he is willing to make one-off designs too. His website is http://www.mongolianarchery.com/products.html. His true composite bow is made with traditional materials and it is the cheapest one I have seen around.

I'm getting virus warnings from that mongolianarchery link.

Grozer was so kind that he sent me one of those prototypes and I really liked it. The bow is not shown at his site yet. The energy storing capability of the bow is exceptional.

Tirendaz bows are on "filed test" for nearly one year. I am one of those who has been shooting one of the earliest bows Mehmet Golhan made. As mentioned I competed with it, a 53#@28, in Vsetice.

I agree that non of the Turkish bow replicas made of synthetic materials ever approached to the performance of an organic-material flight bow's performance. However, Mehmet has been making research about new material and using them in designs as-true-as-possible. He's selling his bows too. According to my experience it's a well-made, well finished, good performing bow. I am going to publish an article about its performance at www.tirendaz.com, as soon as we complete the velocity measurements and are able to calculate the efficiency. Until that, I attach a force-draw curve of a 40 pounder of Golhan, to give you an idea.

...And here you'll find the chronograph measurements. It reveals a good hobby bow with velocities reaching 160 fps with 12 grain/pound and 180 fps with 8 grain/pound arrow weight.

The efficiency of this bow in different draw weights, f-d curves, velocities and their comparison with Grozer's Turkish base and Korean bows will be summarized in an article and published at www.tirendaz.com. I am going to let you know when it's done.

Best regards.

Murat