Bamboo composite finished and functioning
I finally finished the bamboo composite that I was working on as a practice bow. I figured I'd work out the technical procedures on less expensive bamboo before I went on to horn.
The bow is made of nine pieces of wood; the birch core, the bamboo strip used for the belly, the handle riser, and the siyahs which were each fabricated from three pieces of black walnut spliced and glued together.
After an initial tillering problem that Adam K. helped me sort out, I ended up with about four layers of sinew -- sanded down from six. A good thing too, because the finished bow was a 65 pound draw when initially strung up and tillered to 28 inches. I left it strung for a week to make sure it was settled to the string, then began to slowly draw it further and further. It has been to 30 inches on the tillering board, but I can only draw it to about 27. When unstrung it was at 55 pounds. Restrung the next day, it was at 60. That seems to be the average of the bow; it varies depending on humidity and temperature.
This first picture is the bow on the tillering form before first stringing. Reflex was kept to about 14 inches because of the lower compression properties of the bamboo. Bow length is 56 inches nock to nock.
The bow is made of nine pieces of wood; the birch core, the bamboo strip used for the belly, the handle riser, and the siyahs which were each fabricated from three pieces of black walnut spliced and glued together.
After an initial tillering problem that Adam K. helped me sort out, I ended up with about four layers of sinew -- sanded down from six. A good thing too, because the finished bow was a 65 pound draw when initially strung up and tillered to 28 inches. I left it strung for a week to make sure it was settled to the string, then began to slowly draw it further and further. It has been to 30 inches on the tillering board, but I can only draw it to about 27. When unstrung it was at 55 pounds. Restrung the next day, it was at 60. That seems to be the average of the bow; it varies depending on humidity and temperature.
This first picture is the bow on the tillering form before first stringing. Reflex was kept to about 14 inches because of the lower compression properties of the bamboo. Bow length is 56 inches nock to nock.
This is the bow strung up for a week, before shooting in.
That last picture was a bit large; let me see if I can resize.
That last picture was a bit large; let me see if I can resize.
From the side. I strung it a bit higher to shoot in.
This is a picture of the bow at nearly full draw (sorry, the guy taking the pictures couldn't time it to get full draw). It is at about 27 inches here, pulling 60 pounds. Difficult to shoot so far as it is about ten pounds heavier than most of my other bows.
I finished it with a layered and distresed look, several layers of red, yellow, and brown dyes on the belly, sanded through to make it look antiqued. I applied wraps of red silk and metallic silver thread, then antiqued with a thinned-out dark brown dye. I applied a clear satin laquer over all for water protection. The bow looks very old, fooled a few people at the shoot I was at down in Friendship, Indiana. I showed it to Vinson Minor at the shoot and he gave me some pointers for the next effort, the horn bow.
I finished it with a layered and distresed look, several layers of red, yellow, and brown dyes on the belly, sanded through to make it look antiqued. I applied wraps of red silk and metallic silver thread, then antiqued with a thinned-out dark brown dye. I applied a clear satin laquer over all for water protection. The bow looks very old, fooled a few people at the shoot I was at down in Friendship, Indiana. I showed it to Vinson Minor at the shoot and he gave me some pointers for the next effort, the horn bow.
I am getting ready to make my first horn bow and was searchign for something like this. Before I spend a year and all my expensive materials on this project I want to make a non-horn asiatic bow as a learning experience.
WHat plan did you follow? Did you use the Dean video and just subsstitue bamboo for horn? I think your bow is beautiful, I would like to make one just like it.
As for the higher the desired wieght this too is a concern of mine. I want my bow to be in the 45# range. Were you unable to tiller it down to your desired weight? Is final weight difficult to control? I fear it could be since until the bow is strung you can't measure the weight and once it is it could be too late.
By the way, did working with Bamboo rather than horn shorten the production time? I am told to expect it to take a year to make a horn bow, it would be nice if this practice bamboo bow could be completed it less time, otherwise we are talking two years before I have a horn bow ready to shoot.
Once again and very impressive bow which I would to try making, any guidence to direction to someone else for guiden would be greatly appreciated.
WHat plan did you follow? Did you use the Dean video and just subsstitue bamboo for horn? I think your bow is beautiful, I would like to make one just like it.
As for the higher the desired wieght this too is a concern of mine. I want my bow to be in the 45# range. Were you unable to tiller it down to your desired weight? Is final weight difficult to control? I fear it could be since until the bow is strung you can't measure the weight and once it is it could be too late.
By the way, did working with Bamboo rather than horn shorten the production time? I am told to expect it to take a year to make a horn bow, it would be nice if this practice bamboo bow could be completed it less time, otherwise we are talking two years before I have a horn bow ready to shoot.
Once again and very impressive bow which I would to try making, any guidence to direction to someone else for guiden would be greatly appreciated.
Dale thats great! I have to make one of these (I ordered two pairs of horn from Peter but dont want to waste it.)
Do you think it would be good to use some of high compression strenght wood like IPE or bubinga instead of horn?
Jaroslav
Do you think it would be good to use some of high compression strenght wood like IPE or bubinga instead of horn?
Jaroslav
Dale - That is a lovely bow truly a labour of love.
Any problems with alignment ? Did you have a target weight and what would the ideal limb width ( best guess ) be to get 50 lbs @ 27"
Any problems with alignment ? Did you have a target weight and what would the ideal limb width ( best guess ) be to get 50 lbs @ 27"
Another question - would there be a good idea to adjust tiler so that more of limb does the work when having no horn?
Let's see if I can answer your questions in some sort of order.
Don't expect to knock one of these out any quicker than a
horn bow because it is built exactly the same. This one had
six layers of sinew over the birch core, probably could have
used four if I had used backstrap sinew and done a more
neat job of it -- as is, I had leg sinew and had to sand it down
to get it smooth enough.
As stated above, this bow was a "practice bow" for my first
horn bow attempt. It is patterned after the Tibetan bow, info
about which you can find here on ATARN in the archives.
There is also some info about bamboo bellied bows in an archived
post called, if memory serves, "an intersting bow design," by
Tom Duvernay.
As to tillering -- well, you don't, at least not in the sense
you self bow guys are. To scrape off bamboo would weaken
the belly. The bow is essentially tillered in the building,
with an equal amount of sinew on each limb, core narrowed
and tapered before glued up. When first strung, there was a
more severe bend in one limb so I sanded to weaken the
opposing limb until both bent the same. The stiff portions of
the limb are due to A) reflex in that protion of the bamboo,
and B) the glue joints of the siyahs and thicker core at
that point.
When I do the horn bow I plan to make it more
of a Crimean Tartar design so as to minimize the mass of
the siyahs -- the Tibetan design had the more massive
Chinese style siyahs. As with most composites and some
sinew bows I have, you have to balance the bow and
sometimes align the tips when first strung after break in.
A little pressure on the bending portion of the limb, or
tying the string to the rounder limb with a bow bag seems to
do the trick. Twisting siyahs will bring them into line, but
of course with a tree-piece spliced siyah I am hestitant
to put too much sideways twist on the joints.
What I WILL do in my horn bow is make the core a lot
thinner. Adam K. advised me to make the sinew at least
3/16 inch thick, so I plan for the core to be 1/8 and a 1/8
inch thick horn in the bending aprt of the limb. The core
thickness seems to determine final draw weight much
more than sinew thickness. If too light one can always add
sinew, but if too heavy due to core thickness you are out of
luck. The core on the bamboo bow was about 3/16 inch
through the bending part of the limb, almost 1/4 inch where
the siyah is spliced in. Incidentally, these were three-part
siyahs; I won't do that in the horn bow, but will use one
piece of the proper angle spliced into the core. I also
intend to carve a one-piece handle section, the way
a Turkish bow is built, as opposed to the glued on riser.
I feel this will give more stiffness to the handle section
and allow me a narrower grip.
I have built sinewed Osage bows with smaller recurves that
are faster than this bamboo composite, and I put that down
to mass in the tips, So my next bow will have narrower and
shorter tips. Tip alignment was accomplished by making the
tips full width -- about an inch wide -- and then rasping them
to shape once the back sinew had dried so that they lined up.
With one-piece siyahs, especially Osage or mullberry, one
could heat and twist to align.
I think that answers all questions, let me post this and go
back to the forum to see if I missed any.
By the way, thanks for all the positive comments.
Dale
Don't expect to knock one of these out any quicker than a
horn bow because it is built exactly the same. This one had
six layers of sinew over the birch core, probably could have
used four if I had used backstrap sinew and done a more
neat job of it -- as is, I had leg sinew and had to sand it down
to get it smooth enough.
As stated above, this bow was a "practice bow" for my first
horn bow attempt. It is patterned after the Tibetan bow, info
about which you can find here on ATARN in the archives.
There is also some info about bamboo bellied bows in an archived
post called, if memory serves, "an intersting bow design," by
Tom Duvernay.
As to tillering -- well, you don't, at least not in the sense
you self bow guys are. To scrape off bamboo would weaken
the belly. The bow is essentially tillered in the building,
with an equal amount of sinew on each limb, core narrowed
and tapered before glued up. When first strung, there was a
more severe bend in one limb so I sanded to weaken the
opposing limb until both bent the same. The stiff portions of
the limb are due to A) reflex in that protion of the bamboo,
and B) the glue joints of the siyahs and thicker core at
that point.
When I do the horn bow I plan to make it more
of a Crimean Tartar design so as to minimize the mass of
the siyahs -- the Tibetan design had the more massive
Chinese style siyahs. As with most composites and some
sinew bows I have, you have to balance the bow and
sometimes align the tips when first strung after break in.
A little pressure on the bending portion of the limb, or
tying the string to the rounder limb with a bow bag seems to
do the trick. Twisting siyahs will bring them into line, but
of course with a tree-piece spliced siyah I am hestitant
to put too much sideways twist on the joints.
What I WILL do in my horn bow is make the core a lot
thinner. Adam K. advised me to make the sinew at least
3/16 inch thick, so I plan for the core to be 1/8 and a 1/8
inch thick horn in the bending aprt of the limb. The core
thickness seems to determine final draw weight much
more than sinew thickness. If too light one can always add
sinew, but if too heavy due to core thickness you are out of
luck. The core on the bamboo bow was about 3/16 inch
through the bending part of the limb, almost 1/4 inch where
the siyah is spliced in. Incidentally, these were three-part
siyahs; I won't do that in the horn bow, but will use one
piece of the proper angle spliced into the core. I also
intend to carve a one-piece handle section, the way
a Turkish bow is built, as opposed to the glued on riser.
I feel this will give more stiffness to the handle section
and allow me a narrower grip.
I have built sinewed Osage bows with smaller recurves that
are faster than this bamboo composite, and I put that down
to mass in the tips, So my next bow will have narrower and
shorter tips. Tip alignment was accomplished by making the
tips full width -- about an inch wide -- and then rasping them
to shape once the back sinew had dried so that they lined up.
With one-piece siyahs, especially Osage or mullberry, one
could heat and twist to align.
I think that answers all questions, let me post this and go
back to the forum to see if I missed any.
By the way, thanks for all the positive comments.
Dale
I see I missed a couple of questions.
Using bamboo -- or any high compression wood such as Osage
ipe or even yew heartwood -- does not shorten production
time as the sinew curing is what determines that. Alberto on
this forum has stated that he uses just two weeks drying time in
between courses and finishes a bow in two months or a little more.
Norm Blaker of Michigan puts all of his sinew on at one time,
allowing only a couple of hours in between courses to let the previous
course set up and gel. He then lets it all dry for a month or two.
I think I'd be more inclined toward Alberto's method.
Since even high-compression wood is not horn, I would keep the
reflex modest on a bow of this type. With my initial 13-14 inch
relex, I maintain the tips 6-7 inches in front of the grip when
first unstrung, more than enough for superior early draw energy
storage. Vinson Minor makes a bamboo backed bow, Osage for the
belly, that has about that amount of reflex when unstrung.
I think that's it. Have I answered all questions?
Using bamboo -- or any high compression wood such as Osage
ipe or even yew heartwood -- does not shorten production
time as the sinew curing is what determines that. Alberto on
this forum has stated that he uses just two weeks drying time in
between courses and finishes a bow in two months or a little more.
Norm Blaker of Michigan puts all of his sinew on at one time,
allowing only a couple of hours in between courses to let the previous
course set up and gel. He then lets it all dry for a month or two.
I think I'd be more inclined toward Alberto's method.
Since even high-compression wood is not horn, I would keep the
reflex modest on a bow of this type. With my initial 13-14 inch
relex, I maintain the tips 6-7 inches in front of the grip when
first unstrung, more than enough for superior early draw energy
storage. Vinson Minor makes a bamboo backed bow, Osage for the
belly, that has about that amount of reflex when unstrung.
I think that's it. Have I answered all questions?
Dale - Whew! There is a lot to building one of those bows. Thanks for the info.
Even if it doesn?t exceed the speed or cast of a sinewed osage bow of comparable weight I am still impressed Dale!
I?m gonna ask you lots of questions... :lol:
My plan is somewhat similar to yours; building a couple of laminated/experimental bows before starting with the "real" stuff. First I am going to try an Indian hornbow, maybe a similar design as your amazing boo will be next.
I?m gonna ask you lots of questions... :lol:
My plan is somewhat similar to yours; building a couple of laminated/experimental bows before starting with the "real" stuff. First I am going to try an Indian hornbow, maybe a similar design as your amazing boo will be next.
Dale,
I know folks are hitting you hard with questions and I hate to add to your missery here but I have one for you.
I have been thinking about trying to make an all wood copy of my Hwarang Korean bow. It uses glass instead of horn in its composite so it does not go into the C shape when unstrung.
I an sonsidering using raw bamboo for the backing and compressed bamboo flooring or juniper heartwood for the compresion layers forgoing the sinew. I am also thinking about laminating in the shiyas and handle rather than making hten seperate pieces that are glued on.
Your thoughts on the idea?
Needless to say I am not a guy who cares anything about authentic.
Ray
I know folks are hitting you hard with questions and I hate to add to your missery here but I have one for you.
I have been thinking about trying to make an all wood copy of my Hwarang Korean bow. It uses glass instead of horn in its composite so it does not go into the C shape when unstrung.
I an sonsidering using raw bamboo for the backing and compressed bamboo flooring or juniper heartwood for the compresion layers forgoing the sinew. I am also thinking about laminating in the shiyas and handle rather than making hten seperate pieces that are glued on.
Your thoughts on the idea?
Needless to say I am not a guy who cares anything about authentic.
Ray
Congratulations, Dale.
Very interesting bow. And beautiful too.
Very interesting bow. And beautiful too.
Great stuff there Dale. I like it alot.