Mythbusters
The Discovery Channel came out to the Neumann Ranch last summer to film an episode on mounted archery for their Mythbusters show. The episode is scheduled to air this Wednesday, the 13th. I am excited to watch it!
Any idea what myth they are busting?
They said there was a myth that an arrow shot forward off a galloping horse would have double the penetration than an arrow shot while standing. I already know it is false, but the arrow certainly has more penetration.
Here is a video clip of us giving them riding lessons haha:
http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/mythbus ... sters.html
And here are a couple pictures:
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Here is a video clip of us giving them riding lessons haha:
http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/mythbus ... sters.html
And here are a couple pictures:
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![[external image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/Morwen541/Mythbusters/IMG_3320.jpg){kind=link}
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![[external image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/Morwen541/Mythbusters/IMG_3293.jpg){kind=link}
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![[external image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v516/Morwen541/Mythbusters/IMG_3301.jpg){kind=link}
Katie,
You are so right. A horse travelling at 25 miles per hour would only add 36 feet per second to the arrow speed. It would be a slow arrow indeed that would have its penetration doubled by that. The best effect would be if you were charging someone who was charging you. The accumulated speed increase would be about 72 fps. Mark Stretton reported on the effect in an article in Glade where he simulated French knights charging English longbow men. It was the same as adding 10 or 20 pounds to the draw weight of the bow in the 80 to 100 pound range.
However, a thrown javelin might enjoy a much better effect. I think it is easier to shoot forward with a bow than launch a javelin directly over a horse's head. Perhaps the technique of cirit throwing where the waist is used more than the shoulders would work better. A long time ago I tried both the normal and the waist based throws from horseback, but I was so bad at it that no conclusions could be drawn.
You are so right. A horse travelling at 25 miles per hour would only add 36 feet per second to the arrow speed. It would be a slow arrow indeed that would have its penetration doubled by that. The best effect would be if you were charging someone who was charging you. The accumulated speed increase would be about 72 fps. Mark Stretton reported on the effect in an article in Glade where he simulated French knights charging English longbow men. It was the same as adding 10 or 20 pounds to the draw weight of the bow in the 80 to 100 pound range.
However, a thrown javelin might enjoy a much better effect. I think it is easier to shoot forward with a bow than launch a javelin directly over a horse's head. Perhaps the technique of cirit throwing where the waist is used more than the shoulders would work better. A long time ago I tried both the normal and the waist based throws from horseback, but I was so bad at it that no conclusions could be drawn.
Hahaha Bede, I am so terrible at throwing javelins, I really throw like a girl :P I am planning on practicing my javelin throwing this summer, for both across the horse, and same side of the horse throws. I understand the mechanics of throwing javelins very well, but for some reason my brain can not send those messages to my body ;)
And I totally agree with your stats on the added velocity of the horse to arrow speed. In relationship to the arrows flight speed, a horse's gallop will never be fast enough double the penetration. Though, my little Arabian mare was running roughly an average of 30mph even after she was tired, it did not change the penetration much.
Whether I pre-released or did a full draw had more of a change in the arrow performance than the horse's speed haha. There are so many variables, it would be difficult to get any accurate stats on any of it really.
I do however, notice an incredible power added to the swing of a sword, or stab with a spear, when I am on horseback. It is great to feel so strong, even if it is the horse doing most of the work for me 8)
And I totally agree with your stats on the added velocity of the horse to arrow speed. In relationship to the arrows flight speed, a horse's gallop will never be fast enough double the penetration. Though, my little Arabian mare was running roughly an average of 30mph even after she was tired, it did not change the penetration much.
Whether I pre-released or did a full draw had more of a change in the arrow performance than the horse's speed haha. There are so many variables, it would be difficult to get any accurate stats on any of it really.
I do however, notice an incredible power added to the swing of a sword, or stab with a spear, when I am on horseback. It is great to feel so strong, even if it is the horse doing most of the work for me 8)
Is throwing javelins off a horse another myth/Kassai fantasy? I was always taught never to let go of the thing until it had penetrated the target, then turn straight around and get it out. Horse lances aren't supposed to be expendable.
By the way; this area of the forum is getting into something that I was worried about when I set it up" Americans discussing topics of interest to all but in an apparently US discussion area. I'm going to move it to 'genera'.
S
By the way; this area of the forum is getting into something that I was worried about when I set it up" Americans discussing topics of interest to all but in an apparently US discussion area. I'm going to move it to 'genera'.
S
Good idea, I should have post this in here.
In Korea, we used slightly longer spears, and they taught me to not let go of it until it had penetrated the target. I think the difference is the weapon size/shape, and weapon styles.
I don't know about Kassai, but I was taught to throw javelins (not spears or lances) from horseback by my friends who practice European medieval horse games. The lances and spears we used for stabbing and then releasing into something like hay bales, or stab and keep a hold of it for pig sticking. Or we hold it steady and ram into the target with the horse's force for jousting and quintain games.
In Korea, we used slightly longer spears, and they taught me to not let go of it until it had penetrated the target. I think the difference is the weapon size/shape, and weapon styles.
I don't know about Kassai, but I was taught to throw javelins (not spears or lances) from horseback by my friends who practice European medieval horse games. The lances and spears we used for stabbing and then releasing into something like hay bales, or stab and keep a hold of it for pig sticking. Or we hold it steady and ram into the target with the horse's force for jousting and quintain games.
Stephen,
It the countries surrounding the Caucasus, the use of short javelins from horseback was common into the nineteenth century. The cerit game is still popular in parts of eastern Turkey. The non-sport ones came in cases of three, worn under the thigh suspended from the saddle with the points down and the butts forward. There are rare sets in museums consisting a a sword and two javelins in a sheath.
The Turkish and Persian ones are about 87 cm long and about 2 cm in diameter. I think there is a Venetian painting of Mamluks practising with them in Cairo. In the game, there were points for hitting your opponent, catching your opponent's thrown javelin and throwing it back.
I have seen the game in a Turkish movie call Kan, translated into English as Bloodfeud. The skill level is very high.
In the Caucasus, some areas played with longer javelins. I have a book with the rules somewhere.
The cerit javelins look quite heavy and have strong points. I think they were for close range attacks. The sport ones are just of wood while the others can be wood with metal points and butts or all metal.
Javelin use is ancient in the Middle East and the Mediterranean shores. I think the Turks may have picked it up in Iran or when they settled in Anatolia. There doesn't seem to be much indication of it while they were in Central Asia.
It the countries surrounding the Caucasus, the use of short javelins from horseback was common into the nineteenth century. The cerit game is still popular in parts of eastern Turkey. The non-sport ones came in cases of three, worn under the thigh suspended from the saddle with the points down and the butts forward. There are rare sets in museums consisting a a sword and two javelins in a sheath.
The Turkish and Persian ones are about 87 cm long and about 2 cm in diameter. I think there is a Venetian painting of Mamluks practising with them in Cairo. In the game, there were points for hitting your opponent, catching your opponent's thrown javelin and throwing it back.
I have seen the game in a Turkish movie call Kan, translated into English as Bloodfeud. The skill level is very high.
In the Caucasus, some areas played with longer javelins. I have a book with the rules somewhere.
The cerit javelins look quite heavy and have strong points. I think they were for close range attacks. The sport ones are just of wood while the others can be wood with metal points and butts or all metal.
Javelin use is ancient in the Middle East and the Mediterranean shores. I think the Turks may have picked it up in Iran or when they settled in Anatolia. There doesn't seem to be much indication of it while they were in Central Asia.
I was taught never to let o of the lance,wether it be pigsticking or tent pegging.you might find this interestinghttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmmBvKOns7w
That video is really cool! Tent pegging looks like so much fun. I want to try it some day.
Haha, I think we did pigsticking at the medieval stables near York when I went there a few weeks ago. It's harder than it looks, throwing javelins at the canter is much easier! (we let go of the javelins, but not the pigsticks)
Yeah we didn't let go of the pig stick either. But I had a much easier time with pig sticking than javelin throwing! I really need lessons on how to throw. I just wimp out right at the last second, and always give a half-assed throw haha.
tent pegging is a lot of fun I have actually seen guys in India lift pegs off with swords as well,all you need is a well balanced lance,its fun to watch as well and a lot less dangerous compared to pig sticking,if any of you decide to try it I recomend the underhanded lance/spear,gives more control.
Tent pegging is popular in Australia too. One of my friends warned me of the danger of hitting yourself on the back of the head with the butt of the lance. The right grip on the lance is important.
Ok I watched the episode! I really liked it, they got some great shots of us doing mounted archery. I am more than satisfied with my 15 min of fame! haha.
The show was definately interesting,good riding on your part.
Thanks! Dana told me, the faster my horse got, the bigger my smile got hahaha... I love the horse im riding. She is over 20 years old, and iv had her since I was 11.
Anyone know where I can watch it online? I'm a poor student without a TV :(
fwiw, javelins were reported as having been widely used in the Hungarian/Byzantine battle on the Sajo river in the 12th century. Given the course of said battle, they were almost certainly referring to use from horseback.
I have got it, just send me an email.daryush wrote:
Anyone know where I can watch it online? I'm a poor student without a TV :(
Hi Katie,
Just home from Texas, have not had a chance to view the Mythbusters video yet but will tonight. Hope that all is well with you.
Hope to see you before too long.
All the best,
Alan
Just home from Texas, have not had a chance to view the Mythbusters video yet but will tonight. Hope that all is well with you.
Hope to see you before too long.
All the best,
Alan
Sent. Thanks :)lancelot wrote:
I have got it, just send me an email.daryush wrote:
Anyone know where I can watch it online? I'm a poor student without a TV :(
Hey Alan! They are going to mail a copy to me within the next couple weeks, so I will give you a copy after I get it. I am glad you made it home in one piece! That must have been a long drive.
~Katie
~Katie
Hi all, I'm a newby here on the site.
Tent pegging is also known by a small group in the Netherlands.
They are almost as big as our bajutsu group.
Somehow I am better with a spear, although I'm not a bad archer.
We use normal sport spears but I am thinking of making my own yari.
I expect they work different than longer spears.
Does anyone know anything about Asian spear throwing technique?
It can be aimed throwing or "accidental" like the Romans did, hurling it at a group in tortoise formation when it turned over, toppled and might find a whole in the formation.
Thanks for any advice.
Frank
Tent pegging is also known by a small group in the Netherlands.
They are almost as big as our bajutsu group.
Somehow I am better with a spear, although I'm not a bad archer.
We use normal sport spears but I am thinking of making my own yari.
I expect they work different than longer spears.
Does anyone know anything about Asian spear throwing technique?
It can be aimed throwing or "accidental" like the Romans did, hurling it at a group in tortoise formation when it turned over, toppled and might find a whole in the formation.
Thanks for any advice.
Frank
Can somebody identify bows that they used in that episode?
Bows of Saluki-Bow-CompanyRapsod wrote:
Can somebody identify bows that they used in that episode?
When did this air? and damn me for missing it.
Hello, Katie
That's very interesting video. :)
I think, you were visit Corea for horseback archery competition, 2008.
I heard that you will come Corea again
Don`t you??
That's very interesting video. :)
I think, you were visit Corea for horseback archery competition, 2008.
I heard that you will come Corea again
Don`t you??
"Is throwing javelins off a horse another myth/Kassai fantasy?"
In his recent book "Byzantine Cavalryman c900-1214", Timothy Dawson has a photo (page 57) from Anatolia in the 1960s showing turks playing a javelin game, standing up in their stirrups and, seemingly, throwing a javelin at their opponent. The photo is copyright National Geographic and thus presumably appeared in one of their magazines within the past 40 years or so.
He also has this to say about Byzantine horse archers equipment (I presume he means regular troops rather than hired mercenaries)
"Their main armament was, of course, the bow, a composite recurve with a smooth profile, rather than the Central Asian style with 'ears', carried strung in a case on the left side. . . .They carried 30 to 40 arrows at a time, contained point outermost in a cylindrical quiver hung from the belt. . .The ubiquitous fletching method for horse archery arrows is four flights framing the nock, allowing the arrow to be nocked either way simply by touch."
In his recent book "Byzantine Cavalryman c900-1214", Timothy Dawson has a photo (page 57) from Anatolia in the 1960s showing turks playing a javelin game, standing up in their stirrups and, seemingly, throwing a javelin at their opponent. The photo is copyright National Geographic and thus presumably appeared in one of their magazines within the past 40 years or so.
He also has this to say about Byzantine horse archers equipment (I presume he means regular troops rather than hired mercenaries)
"Their main armament was, of course, the bow, a composite recurve with a smooth profile, rather than the Central Asian style with 'ears', carried strung in a case on the left side. . . .They carried 30 to 40 arrows at a time, contained point outermost in a cylindrical quiver hung from the belt. . .The ubiquitous fletching method for horse archery arrows is four flights framing the nock, allowing the arrow to be nocked either way simply by touch."
The game is still played in Turkey and if you look up "cirit" on Google.
http://images.google.com.au/images?clie ... e&resnum=4
It has rules that may date back to Byzantine times or earlier if you compare some of the contests to some of the Roman cavalry exercises. The javelins are a metre or so long. There are sets of two or three in quivers for attachment to the saddle surviving from the 17th and 18th centuries.
Tim's comments are not supported by the current research though his description of the source painting is likely to be accurate since he is a very precise observer. The problem with Byzantine representations is their strong classical influence, even in the provinces. In regard to the fletching, standard oriental fletching with three feathers can be used either way up and, up to ninety metres, I have noticed no difference in the flight of the arrows. Four feather fletching is good for close range and might be an advantage in horse archery competitions.
http://images.google.com.au/images?clie ... e&resnum=4
It has rules that may date back to Byzantine times or earlier if you compare some of the contests to some of the Roman cavalry exercises. The javelins are a metre or so long. There are sets of two or three in quivers for attachment to the saddle surviving from the 17th and 18th centuries.
Tim's comments are not supported by the current research though his description of the source painting is likely to be accurate since he is a very precise observer. The problem with Byzantine representations is their strong classical influence, even in the provinces. In regard to the fletching, standard oriental fletching with three feathers can be used either way up and, up to ninety metres, I have noticed no difference in the flight of the arrows. Four feather fletching is good for close range and might be an advantage in horse archery competitions.