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Question on horn and sinew

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Easternarcher
First of all, Hello. First post here, but I'm intrigued by these Asian horn bows these days and want to try my hand at building one.

As far as horn goes, where is a good supplier that I can deal with? Canada doesn't seem to have many animal parts suppliers from what I've seen on the net... :roll: Anybody got any contacts in Canada?

OK, now about the sinew.....the local butcher may be able to supply me with sinew from beef cows. but he says they only run 4-6" in length. I guess he just cuts em off anywhere and packs a bunch to be shipped to the pet food processor.

If this is all I can get, is it acceptable? I've seen youtube shots of sinew applied to bows that appeared to be like 16-20" long!
Do you simply but them together end to end then stagger the next layer so there are no butt joints all the way to the core surface OR do you sorta blend the fibers from one into the fibers of the next run and lay on the glue to saturate this joint??? How much do I need anyways? 2 tiers or three??

I don't know what he's gonna charge for these tendons, but likely the same as he gets from the processor. What's a fair price for sinew these days?
Stephen Selby
You'll get many expert replies. But basically, this is not just any horn and any sinew. The sinew should be from ox, but cattle raised for meat are not as good as working oxen. Also there must be no fat in the sinew, and fatstock is usually a problem that way. The horn should be long and you might want to purchase from Peter Cua in the Philippines, who does international sales with correct paperwork.
Easternarcher

Stephen Selby wrote:

You'll get many expert replies. But basically, this is not just any horn and any sinew. The sinew should be from ox, but cattle raised for meat are not as good as working oxen. Also there must be no fat in the sinew, and fatstock is usually a problem that way. The horn should be long and you might want to purchase from Peter Cua in the Philippines, who does international sales with correct paperwork.

YEs, I've heard of Mr. Cua.
Now where would I be able to find ox sinew? Would wild game such as elk, moose and deer also work since they have a far lower fat content than commercial beef?
Daniel T.

Easternarcher wrote:

Would wild game such as elk, moose and deer also work since they have a far lower fat content than commercial beef?

This is what most people are using. You can look for a butcher that can supply you with either the sinew or the legs cut through or slightly above the knee. You'll need about 8 deer or 4 stag leg sinews for a bow. There is also sinew along the spine, but I don't know much about it because I only used leg sinew.
You can order sinew from highlandhorn.co.uk but it is certainly cheaper if you get it from the butcher. Drying takes only about a week, maybe two. I am fortunate, I recently found a butcher who gives me the legs for free when he gets deer.

Daniel
Easternarcher

Daniel T. wrote:

Easternarcher wrote:

Would wild game such as elk, moose and deer also work since they have a far lower fat content than commercial beef?

This is what most people are using. You can look for a butcher that can supply you with either the sinew or the legs cut through or slightly above the knee. You'll need about 8 deer or 4 stag leg sinews for a bow. There is also sinew along the spine, but I don't know much about it because I only used leg sinew.
You can order sinew from highlandhorn.co.uk but it is certainly cheaper if you get it from the butcher. Drying takes only about a week, maybe two. I am fortunate, I recently found a butcher who gives me the legs for free when he gets deer.

Daniel

I think I also found a local butcher who will save all the leg tendons I want. I assume that it is the large tendon at the back of the hind legs I need????
Daniel T.
Back of the legs is correct. You can use all legs. Removing the sinew is not difficult, but you need a sharp knife and have to be very careful. I found it hard to get through the fur and skin. I did in short but quickly executed cuts. Always cut away from your body and hand, never towards you. When you are through the hide, you can cut between the bow and the sinew, from both sides until you can lift a part of the sinew off the middle of the bone. Then you just have to slide the knive along the bone to work your way towards the knee and leg.

You should consider buying Adam Karpowicz's book (Ottoman Turkish Bows). You'll find it invaluable and since you also live in Canada you should have it early enough.
Daniel T.
About the anatomy: The part where the sinew is taken from is not the lower leg. I don't know the deer anatomy terms, but the corresponding human part would be the tarsal. So the "knee" is really the ankle joint and the other joint close to the hoof propably corresponds to the metatarsophalangeal joint (the ones that connect the toes and the tarsal bones) in the human foot. Or so I think.
Easternarcher

Daniel T. wrote:

About the anatomy: The part where the sinew is taken from is not the lower leg. I don't know the deer anatomy terms, but the corresponding human part would be the tarsal. So the "knee" is really the ankle joint and the other joint close to the hoof propably corresponds to the metatarsophalangeal joint (the ones that connect the toes and the tarsal bones) in the human foot. Or so I think.

YEs, I think you are correct. The tendons I'm thinking of are sometimes called the "hamstring"(large tendon running up into back of the rear leg or ham.
Patrick Menzies
Not really. The tendons you want are the ones lying in the back (and front) of the bony shin section of the legs. Basically the section from the dewclaws up to the joint above that.
The hamstring tends to be thought of as the tendon attaching the projection of the hock to the "butt". It is actually an upper continuation of the tendon you want but it quickly fans out and blends into the muscle.
redhawk
Be sure that your raw-materials are from animals who could have moved enough for to develop strong tendons.
Raw materials from wild animals are much better than raw- materials from cattle having spent a sad life in a small farm.

Michael
Daniel T.

Patrick Menzies wrote:

Not really. The tendons you want are the ones lying in the back (and front) of the bony shin section of the legs. Basically the section from the dewclaws up to the joint above that.
The hamstring tends to be thought of as the tendon attaching the projection of the hock to the "butt". It is actually an upper continuation of the tendon you want but it quickly fans out and blends into the muscle.

You are right, it is not the hamstring. In the human foot there is sinew at the sole. The equivalent of this sinew is the one you want from the deer leg. I am not sure, but I think it is not really a tendon but a ligament. Tendons connect muscle and bone while ligaments connect bones. I'd have to look it up to be sure though.

Anyway, the one needed for a sinew backing feel rubbery like fresh squid tentacles.
Easternarcher

Daniel T. wrote:

Patrick Menzies wrote:

Not really. The tendons you want are the ones lying in the back (and front) of the bony shin section of the legs. Basically the section from the dewclaws up to the joint above that.
The hamstring tends to be thought of as the tendon attaching the projection of the hock to the "butt". It is actually an upper continuation of the tendon you want but it quickly fans out and blends into the muscle.

You are right, it is not the hamstring. In the human foot there is sinew at the sole. The equivalent of this sinew is the one you want from the deer leg. I am not sure, but I think it is not really a tendon but a ligament. Tendons connect muscle and bone while ligaments connect bones. I'd have to look it up to be sure though.

Anyway, the one needed for a sinew backing feel rubbery like fresh squid tentacles.

Well thanks for that.....I guess I was aiming for the wrong attachments! Woulda been alot of work for not. Will taht hamstring still work tho if that's all I can get???
jiao
i butt joints the short sinew stirng less 10CM into longer 100M or more if i want, it not need glue joint it , use your finger get a few water then got wet the end of two sinew sting then you know how do it, when it dry they are joint , very fast, but it not very easy got more well-proportioned , then intertwist the long sinew like the rope, the nest step in glue i need buy some sinew test
Daniel T.
Look at the hind leg in this picture:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fawn_ ... t_edit.jpg

The lower half is vertical. The joint right above it, before the leg turns about 45 degrees to the left and up, that is the ankle joint. In the vertikal part is the sinew you want. In the 45 degrees part is the "hamstring". The knee is right below the part of the fur with the white spots. At least that is what I decuded from the order of the joints, with the hip joint being near the spine. I may be wrong.

However, I am fairly sure that when you ask the butcher to cut at the knee, he'll cut through the ankle joint.
Dusan
Once i post this pics :lol:. Ok . Second time. In this pic from Jano Nagy you can see all sinew from one cow :

[external image]

Here you can see where the tendons are. Special i recomended red area . Here tendon continue and butchers cut tendon 5-7 cm before his end.

[external image]

[external image]
Orda Khan
It's the deers equivalent to the achilles.
Patrick Menzies
It's hard to believe this could be so complicated. If you look at the picture posted you will see the tendon labeled the superficial flexor tendon. This is the one you want to focus on.
I'm surprised the upper portion above the hock was mentioned. Generally that will be short and not readily available. That is the one actually the equivalent to the achilles. in a human.
Animals essentially have all the tendons and ligaments we have spread across the sole of our foot fused into a few larger tendons. All the five lines of bones we hav are fused into one with outer toes reduced to vestigal splint bones and dewclaws.
They actually are tendons and not ligaments despite giving the appearance that they are only connecting bones. In fact they are connected to the larger muscles in the upper section of each limb.
Easternarcher

Patrick Menzies wrote:

It's hard to believe this could be so complicated. If you look at the picture posted you will see the tendon labeled the superficial flexor tendon. This is the one you want to focus on.
I'm surprised the upper portion above the hock was mentioned. Generally that will be short and not readily available. That is the one actually the equivalent to the achilles. in a human.
Animals essentially have all the tendons and ligaments we have spread across the sole of our foot fused into a few larger tendons. All the five lines of bones we hav are fused into one with outer toes reduced to vestigal splint bones and dewclaws.
They actually are tendons and not ligaments despite giving the appearance that they are only connecting bones. In fact they are connected to the larger muscles in the upper section of each limb.

Thanks MR. MEnzies! Makes sense now....