Does anyone care to comment on the Kaya Korean bow ? It has been around for some years now , so they must be doing something right.
It looks tricky to string .
Thomas Duvernay
It's a good starter bow.
Thomas Duvernay
Today, I met with the main fellows from Kaya Archery, including Mr. Kwak Yun-sik, the owner. They picked me up at my place in Gyeongsan and we drove to my traditional house 1-1/2 hours away, as they wanted to see my bow collection and talk about bows.
I am really impressed with them and their company. All three of them originally come from FITA shooting. Mr. Kwak, a member of Korea's national team and formerly of Win&Win bows, has been practicing Korean traditional archery for the past several years and is now a 5th dan (master). Although the company, Kaya, is relatively new (only a few years old), they are dedicated to improving and innovating their product line. They are wanting to develop some new models, including a hunting bow and non-Korean style horsebows (such as Hungarian and Turkish).
They are open to suggestions on what people would like to see. If you have some ideas, please let me know and I'll pass the info on.
A picture of the four of us today. Mr. Kwak is the one on the right.
That's interesting Thomas.
I just ordered a kaya korean bow and should get it these days.
I am highly delighted to read that they may try a Turkish design as well.
I am using my bows a lot, on foot and on horseback and at some point they break and become asymmetrical.
I especially have a bad experience with the Grozer base Turkish bows. Still I used them as the look and design were one of the closest to the originals.
I was surprised when a Korean friend of mine showed me his Korean bow and said he had it for 10 years!
Another point why I am happy is that even though there has been trials to make replika Ottoman non-hornbow bows, they are pretty slow.
The Korean bow limbs are incredibly fast. I already had the idea to modify and use the fast Korean bow limbs for an Ottoman/Turkish bow.
I wonder how high they can go with the poundage..?
Keep us updated.
Gokmen
daryush
I think making the jump from a Korean bow to the Kazakh bow shown in another thread would not be too difficult. When strung, the curves look quite similar...
osmiu
I think that everybody impatiently wait that turkish bow made from Kaya . we sure do .
Stephen Selby
Tom, do you still have one of the FRP Chinese bows that you had made for me? I think that would be a good line to follow - especially with a little modification to the siyahs, which were a bit klunky. If they move fast, they can come to HK to see my collection.
Thomas Duvernay
Stephen,
I have one of the FRP Chinese bows in the States. I still have the reproduction Chinese horn bow (it was stored at the bowyer's house--I hope he didn't sell it :shock: ).
T
Peto
Do you have someone same informations about Wind traditional fighter korean bow from this site?
I dont know who make this bow, but on the bow case is written ?made in china?.
It have the same dimension like a long hwarang-132 cm-, is very light (265 gramms; a hwarang have 330 to 385), is fast and quiet but not very reliable. I have seen some with faults of construction. Is painted very ugly, like a pair of skis, red and black. Kaya looks much reliable (made in korea).
Peto
Thank you ginni.
...yes, kaya is my love... :D
Orda Khan
How does the Kaya compare with the Hwarang? The Hwarang is a great performer and looks good as well, whereas the Kaya bows I see for sale have an ugly patterned covering over the limbs and grip.
Peto
Thats no so bad. And shotting butefull and generaly for me, as beginer, price is very good, but in future... buy maybe hwarang.
osmiu
loool
it's just a question of taste . and money , eventually .
Hwarang , Kaya , Fighter . All of these are good bows . And all have actually the same price . Below 200 Euro . 150 if you are lucky enough . If that are the conditions , you must buy Hwarang , no doubt . Is the best of all that 3 .
Now ... if you order Hwarang from net , from resellers , at 450 Euro price , I must tell you that Hwarang just don't deserve all that money if Kaya and Fighter are still on the market . Performance differences are small compared with huge price differences . This is my personal opinion and nobody in this world can make me change it !
In feeling , Kaya is a closer bow to Hwarang that Fighter . But Fighter is smoother than both . In performance , Kaya and Fighter are comparable , but below Hwarang . But not with much . Fighter need serving before first use . And it is reliable , but for people who care for their bows . Looks more sensitive to dry shots than the other 2 . The red painting can be removed easily from it , resulting a all-black bow . For a beginner in thumb draw , is a good bow . Require much less torsion in the handle . Kaya is a stiffer bow . Closer to Hwarang . It is easier to advance to Hwarang from Kaya than from Fighter . I did't like it the leather pattern , too . But in the end is about how a bow perform .
Conclusion : at below 200 Euro/Hwarang ... the Hwarang is the winner , no question . Above that price on Hwarang , my choice is for cheaper bow between Fighter and Kaya . Or just flip a coin . And that is it . For me , anyway .
jack farrell
Osmiu; What was that brand of bow we were buying last year in Korea? The maker was there with lots of bows and I think Ginny bought several.
He also made a synthetic bow with waterbuffalo belly and real birchbark covering. Has anyone an opinion on that bow?
Jack
osmiu
Hwarang . made by mister Park . a good bow . very good .
About Hwarang with waterbuffalo belly , Ginny can talk more , because someone in our gang (lol ... bowmen gang) purchased one recently , and Ginny shooted with that bow . I remember something about being very smooth , much more than a regular Hwarang ... ?
ginni
The bow I shot is strong 72lbs@28?. Is start to become really heavy at 33?, but still can be drawn to 34?.
I can compare this bow with my 67 lbs regular hwarang.
Is heavier than fully synthetic one (regular bows have about350 grams, the semihorn weight 385 grams).
I shot this semihor bow only few times, the sensation when is shot is somehow of a slow bow. I had de feeling that the bow is slower than other laminate hwarang, no explosion, but is only a sensation, at distance it overshot the regular bow with 20-30 meters, same arrows.
Well, since the semihorn bow is stronger, I can presume the difference is a result of the aditional power, so both bows are in the same class.
The semihorn bow is made following a new design, is much reflexed and the limbs bends more than the older design, much like a real hornbow.
This is the bowyer site, but there no much information in english.
Interesting. First time i hear about this"cure". I think that only Grozer mix in his biocomposites modern materials vith horn. This is only busines "popular" action...
ginni
The bowyer made some similar bows with bamboo on the belly instead of phenolic or horn.
Dusan
Phenolic material is "new" interesting component in Luka? Novotnys work too. I think " stir apple vith pears" is no good. Phenolic is better material vith modern polyesters and horn vith sinew...
Thomas Duvernay
This past summer, I traveled to Pennsylvania to help out Kaya and Greatree Archery at the Eastern Traditional Archery Rendezvous. Having shot a Kaya all that week in demonstrations and in fun, along with being the main world-wide distributor of Hwarang bows, I will comment on them both. As I mentioned a year ago in this thread, the Kaya is a good introductory bow into Korean traditional archery; my position on that remains the same. It is relatively inexpensive (about US $275) and performs quite well. I really enjoyed shooting it at the event. However, it does have a couple small drawbacks; one was mentioned before--its outward appearance--but that's a small thing. The real drawback is it was intended as an inexpensive export, so just remember the old saying about you get what you pay for. With that said, I will say two things: one, it really is a great intro bow and, two, Kaya is developing a high-quality bow for export and it will, hopefully, come out this next year. I plan on carrying the Kaya bows in the near future.
As for the Hwarang, it remains the top of the line, as it was developed for the Korean trad market. Yes, it costs more, but still remember what I mentioned above--you get what you pay for. As for getting it cheaper here in Korea--sure you can (when people visit Korea, I help them out with doing that, at cost), but it will take a plane ticket to the country (If people are visiting anyway, like for the WTAF, then it's no problem). As most archers around the world cannot or will not visit Korea to get a bow, that's where I come in. Do I make a profit? Sure I do--that's what businesses are about, but the cost is competitive with similar type/quality bows in the West and I give personal attention to each and every person who contacts me (many of whom are members here).
The people at Kaya and Greatree are really good folks and nice to work with. I'm happy to count them among my friends.
Thomas, could you tell us a little about the Hwarang horn hybrid and the bamboo hybrid as well?
Also, I've heard of a Manchu style bow which was built with Hwarang technology.
There are also a couple of bows by a guy named Y M Jang (you can find him on youtube doing lots of Korean archery demonstrations with different equipments - http://www.youtube.com/user/ymjang007). He has a fibreglass, hybrid, and true composite bow, as well as a Mongolian bow, shown here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnZO1OHYN-c.
Orda Khan
Thomas Duvernay wrote:
As for the Hwarang, it remains the top of the line, as it was developed for the Korean trad market. Yes, it costs more, but still remember what I mentioned above--you get what you pay for. As for getting it cheaper here in Korea--sure you can (when people visit Korea, I help them out with doing that, at cost), but it will take a plane ticket to the country (If people are visiting anyway, like for the WTAF, then it's no problem). As most archers around the world cannot or will not visit Korea to get a bow, that's where I come in. Do I make a profit? Sure I do--that's what businesses are about, but the cost is competitive with similar type/quality bows in the West and I give personal attention to each and every person who contacts me (many of whom are members here).
Heh, yeah I was thinking much the same, great if you just happen to be in Korea. But as you say Thomas, you get what you pay for and the Hwarang compares very favourably with other such bows and out performs any that I have tried.
Incidentally, what is the maximum draw length? I see Ginni talking 33 and 34 inches and the bows are measured at 31, you don't usually see that much tolerance and though my arrows are 32", the bow doesn't seem to want to bend further (or maybe that's me not wanting to risk it).
ginni
Orda, a friend checked the bows (hwarang) with water and it seems to reach the weight indication at 29".
About drawlenght, I tried only strong bows. My bow have 67 lbs at 28 and almost 85 at 33 in the heat of the summer. It can be drawn up to 35 without problems, but it will be too long for me. Anyway, bows less strong can be drawn extremely long, the limit seems to be the angle made by the string with the tips, up to 90 degreees the string will spring from the ears.
here a picture with a friend, drawing at 35" a 49 lbs bow( 72 pounds at the draw-lenght in the picture):
Daryush, Y.M. Jang sells hwarang bows with 300 usd and with waterbuffalo horn with 400 usd. A friend of mine bought four bows once (horn belly) and he got a very nice discount.
daryush
ginni wrote:
Daryush, Y.M. Jang sells hwarang bows with 300 usd and with waterbuffalo horn with 400 usd. A friend of mine bought four bows once (horn belly) and he got a very nice discount.
Are they particularly different to the Hwarang?
What has me mainly interested is his Korean made Mongolian bow. Apparently much shorter, more efficient, and lighter (by mass) than the Mongolian made ones.
Sorry to hijack the thread! I thought Y M Jang's things might be worth a mention if we were discussing different "brands" of Korean bow ...
Jos?Dom
I got the horn hybrid Korean bow from my friend Peter Dekker. I?m really satisfied with the bow, it?s main attraction is the close look to a real horn bow. It?s fast and shoots with authority. The bad thing: I can?t draw it past 29". It?s 65 pounds at the Korean standard so it?s about 55 at my draw. It?s dissapointing because I wanted to use the Korean long draw but in the end I use it the same as my Turkish draw. The bow doesn?t seem to draw further, it?s like hitting a wall but anyway I didn?t want to try much more just in case. According to Peter, these bows draw up to 32" easily, so probably it just my bow, who knows. Anyway, overall I like the bow.
jchocz
I have Hwarang bow and Kaya. For shooting are fully comparable. Hwarang but closer to the original Hornbow appearance. Who care more resemblance to the original Korean Hornbow prefers the bow Hwarang. Otherwise, Kaya is half price. Hwarang and Kaya = a slight sting ...
Thomas Duvernay
daryush wrote:
Thomas, could you tell us a little about the Hwarang horn hybrid and the bamboo hybrid as well?
Also, I've heard of a Manchu style bow which was built with Hwarang technology.
The horn hybrid is maybe about 75% of a horn bow. Although esthetically pleasing, I found it did not have the cast of either a true horn bow or Hwarang. That is not to say it didn't perform well, as it did, but just not as well as the completely laminated version. It is a favorite of a good friend of mine who is a master in Kuksulwon; he has purchased several of them from me in the past. One thing about the horn hybrid is that the bowyer can only craft them in the cold months due to gluing issues.
It was similar for the bamboo hybrid, although I really like the feel of that bow; even though its cast is a little less, the bamboo hybrid is my favorite to shoot. The bow is not always available year-round, although Mr. Park of Songmugung seems to always have a few available at WTAF time.
Many years ago, Stephen and I commissioned Chinese bows from Yeonmugung using the Hwarang lamination technology. Stephen brought an original bow for the bowyer to study and the result was a pretty bow, although the siyahs were a bit thicker than desired. They were very low draw weight (in the 20s), but worked well. I still have one (I took it to the States). Similarly, my horn bowyer friend, Mr. Geuk-hwan Park (who became partially paralyzed back in 2002) used the bow Stephen brought to make two true horn bows in the Chinese style (Stephen bought one and I the other).
ginni
daryush wrote:
ginni wrote:
Daryush, Y.M. Jang sells hwarang bows with 300 usd and with waterbuffalo horn with 400 usd. A friend of mine bought four bows once (horn belly) and he got a very nice discount.
Are they particularly different to the Hwarang?
What has me mainly interested is his Korean made Mongolian bow. Apparently much shorter, more efficient, and lighter (by mass) than the Mongolian made ones.
Sorry to hijack the thread! I thought Y M Jang's things might be worth a mention if we were discussing different "brands" of Korean bow ...
I am sure that he can deliver the mongolian bow, since thi sbow is made by the same bowyer. You can get his mail adress from youtube and mail him.
Peter Dekker sells this bow too and is a very nice guy.
Orda Khan
Great photo Ginni. That long Korean draw is what I've been trying to achieve and I thought I was getting close until a friend took a pic for me. There was quite a bit of arrow over, at least 3 inches. Jose Dom has described much the same experience. I'm back to my ear but I'd like to get closer to my shoulder.
Bede
It is also important to look at the bow arm. Sometimes the hand drawing the bow comes all the way back, but the bow arm collapses at the shoulder or the elbow.
ginni
Bede, I think is because the unusual position, shooting downhill trough bushes, the guy usualy have no problems with his geometry, he have a very good form (as I can see, I am not expert).
Orda Khan
The advice for shooting uphill or downhill is for a normal draw, followed by adjusting aim by tilting at the waist. This has never felt comfortable to me and I've always shot better by instinctively feeling the shot but I wouldn't argue that this has an affect on form. Shooting from uneven ground, at some very awkward angles is quite different.
I understand what you mean Bede and I am very contious of my bow arm. I have always held my arm in strong position, careful not to push too much as that usually results in over extension and string slap.
My point was more that I've seen many pics of these Hwarangs obviously pulled more than 31", yet my own ( and Jose) .. [maybe a bit tentative?] feels like it's close to its limit.
I drew it further last night and I think Ginni, you are right. The measured draw weight does seem to be around 28-29 and not 31. At this point it does get a lot harder to draw. Had the fletchings catch the side of my face on release at times so I think I'm getting there.
Orda Khan
Well I can confirm that my bow will draw to 32" ( those arrows are 32" self nocked shafts, with pile - total length 32.5" )
Jose Dom, you should try this.
Yes, it becomes quite stiff at around 29" or so but if you have faith and keep pulling it's almost as if the stiffness subsides. Hard to explain, it just keeps on drawing, my wife called out for me to stop when she saw the shoulder of the pile pass my thumb. I'm convinced it could draw to 35" and one look at the limbs tells me it still has some spare. Arrow velocity is incredible, I've worked out what suits it so a nice order of bamboo shafts from Poletti is on the cards now.
Picture from the club on Wednesday as evidence.
daryush
Orda, what is the thing round your arm for?
Orda Khan
It's a bracer. I know there should be no need for one but I have yet to perfect this style and I am catching my arm occasionally. I shot my Hun bow for years with no need of a bracer and as I am hitting my arm less now, I'm sure it won't be long before it goes.
Ashbow
Orda, so you got the thumb disease too?! And I had so much trust in you keeping the three finger style from extinction :), every one around is switching to the thumbdraw, soon there will be no more three finger archers around :lol: !
Have you been practicing for a long time now? You form looks like you are pretty comfortable.
Please, do share your thoughts on the Poletti bamboo shafts. I dealt with some Chinese bamboo shafts from E-bay recently, they were quite cheap, and I wonder if the price reflected the quality as well. Maybe they weren't that bad at all, probably the straightness isn't everything but when one got to see a good Korean bamboo shaft one is not easily satisfied any more. I don't know about the species of the Chinese shafts, but the internodes weren't that straight as the Korean bamboo tend to be, the diameter varied as did the weight. I wonder if Poletti sources his shafts from China as well.
Orda Khan
Hello Ashbow. Yes I'm sorry I have developed the bug. But to be honest, my main reason for changing is arthritis, I suffered a bad spell a couple of years back and was not able to shoot properly afterwards. My whole drawing action was different and felt unnatural so I decided a change may be the best remedy. Thanks for your compliment, yes I am finding this new style more comfortable and the Hwarang is a wonderful bow.
I'm sure Poletti sells Tiger shafts. I bought some of these at Tewkesbury Mediaeval Fayre and they did appear to be very good quality. I'll let you know what I find.
jchocz
Ashbow wrote:
Please, do share your thoughts on the Poletti bamboo shafts. I dealt with some Chinese bamboo shafts from E-bay recently, they were quite cheap, and I wonder if the price reflected the quality as well. Maybe they weren't that bad at all, probably the straightness isn't everything but when one got to see a good Korean bamboo shaft one is not easily satisfied any more. I don't know about the species of the Chinese shafts, but the internodes weren't that straight as the Korean bamboo tend to be, the diameter varied as did the weight. I wonder if Poletti sources his shafts from China as well.
Poletti actually sells bamboo shafts from China (Tiger). I bought 300 pieces and the quality is good. They are cooked and some may be broken (1-2 of 100 pieces). But have better toughness than natural. Poletti is classified adds more than Tiger. But have a much higher price ...
Ashbow
Orda, I got the bug myself and nothing can cure me now. What you have written about arthritis is interesting, anyway a pleasent surprise to see you very comfortable with the thumbdraw, as I remeber you writing that it did feel rather awkward to you.
Thank you guys for the bamboo info.
Orda Khan
Ashbow wrote:
I remeber you writing that it did feel rather awkward to you.
Using my Turkish bow, with a shorter draw did not feel right. Maybe it has something to do with this longer draw, it certainly feels better.
My problem is in my neck and with the pain radiating down my shoulder and right arm, you can imagine what this can do.
Good shooting!
Ashbow
I think so too, about the longer draw. I've been thinking that the long draw, like the Korean or the Japanese is more 'healthy' on you because the strain is more evenly distributed on the both shoulders.
Uneven strain is perhaps also the reason I got rid of the under the chin anchor point completely in favour to a longer draw to the ear about, when shooting with the three fingers.
ginni
The semihorn bow totaly delaminated today, from nock to nock!
This was happened at full draw, I heard a very low crack followed by sound like a low whistle.
The string was in my right hand and the bow was in the shape at full draw, but with the string off!
This is a disaster!
Looking at the inside I can tell the bow is made exactly like regular bow, only horn instead of phenolic. The belly is made with black fiberglass and horn, the lamination occurred between belly and bamboo core.
Shooting back with the other bow, older design and fully sintethic materials, 67 lbs (71 lbs the semihorn bow), I can see the arrows flying way slower than semihorn, I was unable to hit the target at 40 meters, all arrows going down again and again. Also it looks more intolerant with the grip, it requires much more attention and finesse in handling. Now I can say, I prefer the semihorn bow by far, but after this incident I have some doubts about the reliability of the bow. Probably this is not an issue at lower draw weights.
Time will show us how those bows resist.
cristian_iepure
So, your 71lbs bow is two months old and you shot almost only 200-300 arrows with it, the delamination must be a construction issue, I think this bow must go back to Mr Park in order to be inspected and replaced. In my oppinion, as a Hwarang bow user (made by Mr Park), it's unusual for such a well constructed bow to act this way.
Orda Khan
That is disappointing news Ginni. Are you going to WTAF this year? Would be a good idea to take the bow along for evaluation.
JJ
According to my informations the maximal draw length of the normal-length laminated Pseudo-Gakgungs (Hwarang bow, Koryo bow and others) is considered by the Koreans as "7 chi", which is also the length of their longest arrows. That corresponds to 81,81 cm (27 x 3,03 cm) or 32,2 inches. That information was given to me by Karl Zeilinger. I think there are special bows being built on request for longer draws, but the ordinary ones are like this.
Best regards, JJ
ginni
I will get the bow at WTAF, maybe mr Park will fix or replace it.
I definitely have a long draw, but this bow didnt allow me to draw it at 34.
Thomas Duvernay
JJ wrote:
According to my informations the maximal draw length of the normal-length laminated Pseudo-Gakgungs (Hwarang bow, Koryo bow and others) is considered by the Koreans as "7 chi", which is also the length of their longest arrows. That corresponds to 81,81 cm (27 x 3,03 cm) or 32,2 inches. That information was given to me by Karl Zeilinger. I think there are special bows being built on request for longer draws, but the ordinary ones are like this.
Best regards, JJ
Actually, I have seen arrows up to 9 chi, although 7 chi is probably the most common.
Thomas Duvernay
ginni wrote:
I will get the bow at WTAF, maybe mr Park will fix or replace it.
I definitely have a long draw, but this bow didnt allow me to draw it at 34.
Regarding the horn/laminate hybrid bow, although the construction is very similar to the regular laminate, it is still quite different. The bow, although less complex to use than the true horn bow, still needs to be cared for in a similar fashion. Also, higher draw weights are generally not good with this type of bow. With that said, I have a good friend (a master in Kuk Sul Won) who has bought several (including a couple of relatively high draw weight) and had no problems that I have heard of.
It is possible that Mr. Park will repair the bow, but it will probably be very dependent upon whether the core twisted or not. Certainly bring it with you, Ginni.
T
WarBow
I am waiting my 50# Kaya Korean Bow (2010 model) to arrive. In the meantime, I did a very crude measurement of my draw length and it came out to 35", if I were to anchor the draw arm past the ear with the elbow pointing parallel to the shoulder. Are longer than 32" carbon arrow shafts available? What is the draw weight of the Kaya at 32", 33", 34" and 35"? Can I use plastic fletching instead of feather? A horseback archer told me that plastic fletches are fine for regular shooting practice. Thanks guys!
Orda Khan
Hello Warbow,
While I was waiting for my Hwarang I made a similar check, drawing past the ear to a point where the thumb aligns with the deltoid. Any further than this would mean my elbow would begin to come around my body, so I figured this was a fairly decent, consistent anchor. That was around 35" at least and I was concerned about finding shafts that would be long enough. I've only ever used wooden shafts or bamboo that I made myself. I would have to wait months if I cut new bamboo and all our wooden shafts are supplied at a standard 32".
The arrow in my picture is port orford cedar, self nocked with brass bullet point that draws to 32.5". I had 4 Tiger bamboo shafts that I bought at a fayre, these were cut to 33". I used conventional plastic nocks (in order to gain a fraction more length) and I achieved the same up front with points that push over the shaft. These arrows are 34.5" and the feed back I'm getting from our little Asiatic group at the club is around 2" of arrow over with each shot. So I still seem to be drawing the same and it is quite a bit shorter than I originally thought.
I'm not 100% sure about carbons, I'll ask the compounders and recurves tonight. I know there are a few with long draws and yes plastic fletchings are perfectly ok.....but I would ask one question though :?:
Why choose carbons with plastic veins over bamboo fletched with feathers?
*Feedback*
On the quest for bamboo shaft suppliers. Poletti prices are a little steep. Add on shipping and they become expensive, even bulk orders. A shame but not completely out of the equation.
"Tiger" unfortunately does not ship to the UK. Price was very good, though I expect import duty would hike it up.
Incidentally, the 4 Tiger shafts I had perform really well. They are well finished and nicely straight (though not as straight as my woods which are 'perfect') I would not want to attempt trying to improve them in this way because they group better anyway.
These 4 are over spined and have heavy 125gr points. I'm currently waiting for a dozen bamboo shafts from a guy in the UK. The price is good, will see about the quality.
daryush
Tiger doesn't ship to the UK?
Darn it, there goes my options ...
So, where did you get your Tiger shafts from? And who is the guy in the UK (is it Mark something...?)
Ashbow
Warbow, the Korean traditional carbon arrows are commonly fletched with plastic vanes.
When estimating your draw lenght you may consider that your body 'compresses' when drawing the bow, especially a relatively stronger one, in effect your actual draw lenght may be shorter then estimated.
Orda Khan wrote:
Why choose carbons with plastic veins over bamboo fletched with feathers?
I think it make sense for regular practice, simply because the carbons are cheaper and more resistnat to mistreatment... 8)
Orda, thank you for your feedback. My friends bought some bamboo shafts from the Chinese E-bay seller named kashi? I think. Is he the 'Tiger' guy or a different one? The price was much cheaper than the one Poletti charges.
Though I don't have much experience with and my knowledge of bamboo shafting is very limited, I think those shafts are not of high quality, at least I suppose so, don't take my word for granted.
The node placemnet is quite random, the straightness, well... they are, as you put it, "nicely" straight, if straight at all, but not the internodes.
To compare, the Japanese and Korean shafts I saw were VERY straight.
The last batch we roughly weighted is between 21 and 33 grams, avaraging 25-26 g.
Mark Hill?
Orda Khan
That's the chap. I will have to let you know how good they actually are. I believe that is the same Chinese seller, the 4 shafts I bought were from the Fairbow stand at Tewkesbury Mediaeval Fayre, so there is always the possibility they have Tiger shafts in stock. They appeared to be nicely straight when I bought them and being heat tempered I would expect them to remain straight. They were lying around since July and in that time I would not be surprised at some change, at least with wooden shafts. Anyway, once fletched etc they all spun particularly well with odd deflections removed by hand only.
I shot them again last night and at the end of the evening a spin test revealed considerable wobble in all but one arrow. Did this affect the last end? Nope, the grouping was still good and earlier I succeeded in the 10m polo mint challenge (something we began at our club :lol: )
Even though, I would expect the arrows to remain straight. The bamboo arrows I made in the past are still straight after years.
They are certainly not of the quality of Korean or Japanese shafts but for the price, I would expect that. I believe Thomas once quoted a price of 25$ a shaft? I'd love some Korean arrows ... but not to shoot field archery :shock:
I just received a message from my friend saying the shafts have arrived so I will let you know.
Orda Khan
Meanwhile, these are some pics of the Tiger shafts compared with my own old arrow from Pseudosasa Japonica in the garden.
Orda Khan
The bottom picture.....optical illusion, the shafts are straight :?
Ashbow
Hmm, so it's a different seller then I see. Those 'tiger' shafts look of better quality, hard to judge form the pictures though.
jack farrell
I post this for your entertainment. Just please do not tell the Koreans.
I sold one of my Korean bows to a fellow shooter and he kept unstringing the bow while shooting. This had never been a problem for me at all so the assumption was that he was pulling sideways on the string. This went on sometime till I came up with this idea. It did solve the problem. Mongolian style bridges; a white horn on top and black on the bottom limb.
jack farrell
An old style Korean grip was added. Have never liked the rough rubber grip which comes on these bows. This is authentic.
daryush
That grip looks funny!
Do the string bridges change its performance at all? I bet they'd add a bit of speed. Although they look a little wide ...
Has the unstringing or sideways pulling damaged the bow at all?
Orda Khan
Well I called at my mate's today and picked up the shafts, I'm very pleased with them. I would say they are similar in quality to the Tiger shafts. Node placement could be better but I'm sure they will make very nice functional arrows. These are for field courses afterall.
Jack,
I found the grip a bit thin so I built it up with suede binding, that grip looks just the answer. I can imagine that feels great to hold.
WarBow
Thank you so much for the help from fellow ATARN members!!!
Orda Khan
Don't forget to give us your thoughts when the bow arrives.
Thomas Duvernay
jack farrell wrote:
An old style Korean grip was added. Have never liked the rough rubber grip which comes on these bows. This is authentic.
What the horn bowyers usually do is buy material used to make business suits, slice off a few centimeters' wide strip and then fray it. It works well. Another old-style (well, at least in the past twenty years or so) is to serve dish scouring pads to the handle core.
Ken
Just in case I'm thinking about the wrong bow - is the Kaya bow being written about here the one being sold by Quicks in UK for only ?125?
If so it sounds a great starting point for a beginner?
jchocz
Ken wrote:
Just in case I'm thinking about the wrong bow - is the Kaya bow being written about here the one being sold by Quicks in UK for only ?125?
I have several bows Korean type (Hwarang 45lb and 70lb, 50lb and 55lb Kaya). They are comparable and very good. Hwarang is closer to the original Korean HornBows. Kaya but also shoots very well.
For that price it's a great bow.
WarBow
I have been pulling the 50# Kaya a lot lately. It gets very stiff and heavy at 29" or more. The draw weight seems to shoot upward after 29". Therefore, more weight training is required to pull it past 31". I hope this thing can take 34" draw length.
Orda Khan wrote:
Don't forget to give us your thoughts when the bow arrives.
Orda Khan
Ken,
Yes it's the same bow, great performance for the price.
WarBow,
It sounds like a similar experience that others have mentioned, I had the same feeling with my Hwarang at first. Whether this was because I was used to drawing around 29" and muscle memory I'm not sure.
cristian_iepure
This kind of Korean bows can be drawn to 34" having no problem :)
Are those bows on the site for sale? They have a nice C shaped one. Are they variants of the Hwarang bow or made by a different bowyer?
cristian_iepure
this kind of bows are not made by Songmugung (Do Min Park) but by the other bowyer - Yeonmugung (also called Park).
The name of the model shown is MyeongPoom 명품, that means masterpiece. The C-shaped bow ins not in production anymore, I guess that the daring shape lead to limb twists or even delaminations, I repeat, it's just a guess.
Orda Khan
Very interesting, Cristian. Do you know the differences between these two models (if any) and how performance compares?
It's a shame the site does not have translation, the bows are stunning.
cristian_iepure
My first two korean bows were made by Songmugung. They feel very smooth to draw, and also smooth to shoot, because of their bamboo core. this year at WTAF I bought the bow made by Yeonmugung, listening to Ginni's advice. This bow it's 55lbs but it feels like 60-62, it can be drawn to 34" or even 35"(it's the long standard version of this model), shoots faster than my old bow, and even it is not so smooth like the others, it shoots more precisely and seems to be more forgiving than the others (the brace height is larger). The core of this bow is made of sycamore.
hcspng
In a Farsi text i've read that here build their bow from Chenar(Sycamore or Plane tree).
Orda Khan
Ah, it's the one with the wooden core, thanks.
I thought the brace height looked bigger in your clip and the longer bow would explain the draw length, I didn't realise it was not the standard bow.
cristian_iepure
Although it has a rougher construction than the Songmugung's, I understood that they're more reliable in case of a dry shot, you can use them to shoot very light arrows with tong'?h, and these kind of bows ...can take a lot :). There's not much difference between the standard model and the long one..less than 1", I think. In the movieclip the other guy is shooting near me the biocomposite made by Songmugung, a 55lbs bow.
My first two korean bows were made by Songmugung. They feel very smooth to draw, and also smooth to shoot, because of their bamboo core. this year at WTAF I bought the bow made by Yeonmugung, listening to Ginni's advice. This bow it's 55lbs but it feels like 60-62, it can be drawn to 34" or even 35"(it's the long standard version of this model), shoots faster than my old bow, and even it is not so smooth like the others, it shoots more precisely and seems to be more forgiving than the others (the brace height is larger). The core of this bow is made of sycamore.
I believe is maple, not sycamore.
My personal taste is obvious for Song Mu Gung bows, especially for natural horn model.
But I must to admit the Yeun Moo Gung bows are much robust and can take a lot of mistakes and bad treatment and also are more tolerant.
Orda Khan
Korean bows have quite a following in Romania, guys! Soon my wife will get hers and raise the number to three in our club ... we are going in the right direction.
ginni
Yes, after one year after my first participation at WTAF, we are about thirty thumbringers. I hard to keep the evidence, Cristian Iepure is in touch with most of them.
At the last competition, an indoor cup, we had our division, "traditional korean" !
WarBow
I got this graph from Freddie of Kaya. As you can see the draw weight shoots upward after 31" No wonder pulling that extra inch is so difficult. Of course, Ginni and his friends have no problem whatsoever :D :D :D .
Now mr. Park have an english version of his site and he deliver directly by mail order.
I strongly recommend to everybody to try a semihorn bow, especialy in the longer 130 cm version for those with long arms.
Just try, then we can debate about the very subtile feeling of this bow.
Orda Khan
Thanks Ginni.
The semi horn version will be my next purchase. When that purchase will be depends on ......the wife :lol:
Boghadair
I tried to email,but my email was blocked as spam!
Boghadair
I tried again, the email comes back as 'undeliverable'
ginni
I dont know whats happens with his mail. But I just received two semihorn bow, one for me and another for a friend.
Both shots like rockets!
dragonman
hello guys, I feel a bit dumb asking this, but I know nothing about 'kaya' bows or any Korean bows for that matter, but I am very interested to learn. What is a kaya bow and a 'hwarang bow' ??? does any one have any clear pics? I have seen the ones earlier in this thread but am unsure what is what and what they are made of?
Also what is a 'biocomposite'??? it sounds like a mixture of natural and moderm material!!! but arent all modern, non-traditional bows made like this with wood and fibre-glass mixture, ( except of course the very latest all man made material,- space age/alien bows????
Orda Khan
Hello Dragonman,
Hwarang and Kaya are just company names producing Korean hornbow replicas. There are bows of various materials for the synthetic versions,namely: bamboo/wood/carbon or maple/wood/carbon (wood being siyah) synthetic birchbark covering.
There is a version that has horn belly and birchbark backing, this is the bow Ginni has.
Kaya advertises a similar construction in bows for 2011.
Biocomposite technology was introduced by Grozer I believe. Wood/glass core with horn belly and 'pressed sinew plate'. I've seen them, don't like them.
dragonman
Thanks Orda, I am out of touch with the world of modern bow developments. Pressed sinew plates???I wonder how effective they are? cant see the point of using horn on a fibre glass bow, a waste of good horn. Are there any companies making traditional Korean bows out of traditional materials?
I actually shot a Grozner bow for the first time last week, it did look nice but I was suprised how poor its performance was. More like a re-enactment bow I thought
daryush
Dragonman, which Grozer was this?
I have three Grozer bows and am quite happy with their performance. They are: the Scythian base, TRH Mughal, and G5 Hungarian.
I like the look of his Tatar Extra III and Bio Scythian as well.
But I want to save up for a Spitfire and a Saluki horn-sinew bow.
Orda Khan
Over the years I've tried quite a few Grozer (Hungarian,Hun,Turkish, C.Tatar, Scythian) in various forms, (base, extra1,2,3, TRH) I've also tried Kassai's base and TRH. While at the time I considered them relatively good and was quite happy with the performance, since using the Hwarang there is no comparison
ginni
Dragonman, the korean master bowyer Do Min Park use for some of his bows modern materials and also bamboo and waterbuffalo horn. This only for his high-end bows.
Any skier know how big difference make the wood as core material for a ski.
Acctualy for few years almost all models used for offpiste skiing are made with wooden core.
With bows is the same. I dont know why and how to explain, but between same bows made by master Park, those with bamboo and hornbelly are the best.
Waste of good horn? Definitely no! As a good friend said, the semihorn bow is the best laminate bow made in Korea at this moment.
I cant wait for Kaya turkish bow. I wonder how will be a short turkish bow made with korean technology.
dragonman
Whoops!!! maybe I said the wrong thing? Didnt intend to offend, or insult other bowyers and archers. I guess hornbows and natural material bows are expensive and hard to make, so maybe a lot of people shoot these modern versions. I didnt consider this when posting my previous reply. However, now, in response to what I said;
I believe the Grozner I shot was the Scythian version, probably the cheapest version and is about a year old, that is all I know. The person whose bow it is was quite happy with the performance as well, so I obviously said nothing. He doesnt have experience of many bows. But I have shot both first class wood, bamboo and the latest well made fibreglass bows, and in my opinion the Grozner was slow. un-smooth to draw and had hand shock!!!! Its strongest point is its looks. I have shot faster all wood bows and much faster FG bows. If these bows are FG I dont see why they arent faster. Again this is just my opinion.
Ginni, forgive my outspoken views, I have not shot these bows, so should not judge. I am quite biast, I love natural materials and dislike modern bows, I do appreciate though the craftsmanship in all materials and some modern bows are better than others. It is interesting to combine horn!!! What do you mean by 'best laminate bow' fastest? most beautiful??...smoothest??
ginni
Dragonman, there is no offense at all, we just talk about bows.
I found too the Grozer bows being slow, but I tried only solid fiberglass and one biocomposite. Is hard to compare, due the fact i shot heavy bows and my arrow regulary flies in the range of 220 fps. or higher, so usualy any bow is slow for me.
Some guy said that TRH is fast and also Kassai laminate.
However, korean bow is another thing. And between kaya and hwarang, also is a big difference.
But you cannot get this performance for free, learning to shoot is very difficult and can be very frustrating.
daryush
Dragonman - is this the Scythian base for adults? I have one and I find it very good. It resembles a Korean-inspired bow more than a Scythian bow and works similar to one in my opinion. The difference is in the exact tiller. But when I shoot there is no hand shock, and it is smooth until about 31 inches. I can't really explain your bad experience, sorry to hear about it!
I really do like my Hwarang, but at the moment it is too light to compare. 60# compared with my TRH Mughal which is around 85# (at full draw)! I hope to get a heavier Korean sometime, ideally the semi-horn. But I would like a higher brace height too, I think a higher brace height is a little easier to shoot with!
The TRH bow I have is very nice. It's shape isn't very angular, but it feels like pulling on a big rubber band, especially in the last few inches.
I too cannot wait for a Korean-made Turkish bow!
Has anyone so far tried out the new Qing and Mongolian Korean bows by SMG?
(or the Mongolian by YM Jang, for that matter?)
dragonman
Daryush, I really dont know, I was offered a go of this bow and didnt ask many questions. Next time I will take a lot more interest. Shooting a bow is a vey subjective experience, maybe my small experience with these bows is not enough to make an accurate judgement, and I was biased, so dont take my opinions too serious. I have a chronograph and I will invite my friend to my house and make a more serious comparisson of his Grozner, then I can form a better conclusion. I should learn not to jump to conclusions
Wow, thanks for posting this! I have a Kaya @ 55lbs and I thought the 55 lbs would be at full Korean draw. No wonder if feels so much heavier than I expected!
Orda Khan
Dragonman, the intention of these Korean bows was to create similarity in both performance and appearance, while at the same time avoiding the difficult procedure of stringing and preparing the bow for use. The synthetic version is an incredible bow and it seems horn version has produced a better bow again.
As much as I admire the true KTB, I would never even contemplate buying one because I would probably only succeed in destroying it. As a fellow Welshman you know the wonderful weather we endure, our climate is not all that hornbow friendly.
The SMG bow with horn belly is the nearest to the real thing that we have without these other issues.
You should check them out if you have a chance, performance wise they are way ahead.
Your observation of Grozer bows is shared by others. Bowyers I've talked with point to 'all that leather' on the limbs. That said, I think he and Kassai and others have a provided a means for archers who are interested in Asiatic bows, to shoot something different ( and without remotgaging the house :wink:) .
WarBow
I had the pleasure of discussing the difference between the KTB and SMG's synthetic-horn laminated bow. Ginni described the SMG being harder to pull than the KTB even though both are at the same rated draw weight of 50#. I would like to confirm this result with fellow ATARN members who have both the SMG bows and KTB. Do you come to the same conclusion? Thank you!
cristian_iepure
I think there's a little misunderstood regarding the technical terms used:
KTB - Kaya Traditional Bow
Orda's true KTB - true Korean Traditional Bow (Hornbow)
@warbow - I also tried the Kaya TB, and the feeling of smoothnes is below SMG, feels stiffer at the same poundage and stacks at 32". The bamboo core of SMG can do the difference regarding the smoothness.
Regarding the construction, the Kaya does not have the carbon core strip that the SMG bow has, the construction pattern is closer to the Wind Fighter bow made in China.
WarBow
Thank you Cristian for the clarification! I also thought the Kaya Traditional Bow (KTB) should stack more than the SMG synthetic-horn laminated bow.
cristian_iepure wrote:
I think there's a little misunderstood regarding the technical terms used:
KTB - Kaya Traditional Bow
Orda's true KTB - true Korean Traditional Bow (Hornbow)
@warbow - I also tried the Kaya TB, and the feeling of smoothnes is below SMG, feels stiffer at the same poundage and stacks at 32". The bamboo core of SMG can do the difference regarding the smoothness.
Regarding the construction, the Kaya does not have the carbon core strip that the SMG bow has, the construction pattern is closer to the Wind Fighter bow made in China.
osmiu
cristian_iepure wrote:
... the Wind Fighter bow made in China
this is a supposition , not a fact .
cristian_iepure
cristian_iepure wrote:
... the Wind Fighter bow made in China
this is a supposition , not a fact .
I have seen more than 10 Wind Fighter bows being shipped from the european supplier, and on the sticker applied to every cartboard box it was written the name of the bow, the poundage, and of course, "Made in China". I also own one of these bows and on the box, at the delivery was written the same thing. It would be easier to find out who's the bowyer by sending an email regarding the source of the bows to www.aixbow.de .[/url]
cristian_iepure
...and on the other side, on the Kaya cartboard box it's written "Made in Korea". So...
osmiu
... so this is a supposition , not a fact . a supposition based on a sticker from a cardboard box . this is not a fact . I buyed 3 such bows and never seen an indication like that bows are "made in China" . maybe the stickers just fly off not wanted to offend me . usually "made in China" stamp is on the product , from harmonica to space rocket . is not a sticker and is not on the wrappage . and the technology used to manufactured the Fighter is obviously korean , not chinese . and Fighter is on the market long before Kaya's birth . by long I meant years . so it can't be a cheap chinese imitation of an unexistent Kaya . remain ipotesis of a korean corporation that produce one type of traditional korean bow in China ? very strange if you ask me . one type of bow and one type alone . for that less you must locate your firm in China ? what for ? what if bows are produced in Korea and wrapped in China for smaller taxes or something ?
cristian_iepure wrote:
It would be easier to find out who's the bowyer by sending an email regarding the source of the bows to wwwaixbow.de
that is a different beast . do that . after that ... you may say that Fighter is a "made in china" bow . until than ... remain just a supposition .
ps : I knew that Fighter was made by an ex korean recurve archer , I didn't remember his name . It is not a question about what is a better bow form this 2 , just It's hard to believe that a single type of a korean traditional bow was made in China , long before Kaya company made her product . so the closest thing to a hwarang at that time and the first korean traditional bow in mass production was build by chinese ? pardon my expression , but it sound like *** . and all that from a sticker on a cardboardbox ? sorry Cristi , but this isn't enough for me .
osmiu
well ... I'am not a emailing fan , but Cristi made a good point . someone should email at the most well known hwarang producers for asking what is the designed draw length for each specific hwarang . because I really doubt that majority of this bows are designed to shoot for 34" drawlength . of course that almost every hwarang can draw to 34" , even my fighters did that , but I'am curios what maximum draw length (for shooting) recommend the producers of the hwarang . they should know better , no ?
dragonman
Orda, I completely agree. These are beautiful bows, practical at a practical price. I have a horn bow and other sinew/bamboo bows, and they arent especialy practical or even fast, because like you say, its very damp here. These bows would never have 'evolved' in this part of the world. And they are a bother to look after. The grozer bows are fast enough.... I'm a bowyer and seek perfection in bows, although I'll probably never find it...... This makes me overly critical at times. Not everyone has the time or inclination to make his own bow, obviously and these bows are very popular because they combine the best of both worlds, I would love to try out the 'bio-composites'
Warbow & Osmiu, what difference does it make what country the bow is made in???, you like a bow for how its made and how it performs, not where its made???
Daniel
"Fighter is on the market long before Kaya's birth"
This is not entirely correct. Certainly I'm not an expert here but I do remember seeing "Kaya" in 3 Rivers Archery '04 or '05 catalog. This was before Windfighter made it's mark on the market. Sometimes around end of 2006 and 2007 many polish traditional archers begun swapping their bows for Fighter and the bow become extremely popular.
WarBow
Dragonman,
I did not say the country of manufacture to the difference in the product.
dragonman wrote:
Orda, I completely agree. These are beautiful bows, practical at a practical price. I have a horn bow and other sinew/bamboo bows, and they arent especialy practical or even fast, because like you say, its very damp here. These bows would never have 'evolved' in this part of the world. And they are a bother to look after. The grozer bows are fast enough.... I'm a bowyer and seek perfection in bows, although I'll probably never find it...... This makes me overly critical at times. Not everyone has the time or inclination to make his own bow, obviously and these bows are very popular because they combine the best of both worlds, I would love to try out the 'bio-composites'
Warbow & Osmiu, what difference does it make what country the bow is made in???, you like a bow for how its made and how it performs, not where its made???
osmiu
Daniel wrote:
but I do remember seeing "Kaya" in 3 Rivers Archery '04 or '05 catalog
do you remember the price ? because "kaya" is a company , and before making the kaya bow as we all know today , the owner of the company sell hand crafted bows similar to hwarang under the name of his company . the bow you saw in '04 '05 is not the cheap , mass production kaya , who appeared on the market long after fighter became popular in Poland .
dragonman wrote:
Warbow & Osmiu, what difference does it make what country the bow is made in???, you like a bow for how its made and how it performs, not where its made???
this is true in my case , but not for others . for many others "made in China" is like US "bad apple" and "made in Korea" is like french "OOOO-LAAAAA-LAAAAAA" . and when you put a "bad apple" label on a bow , at least you have to be sure that you are 100% right . because I throwed almost 400 tape measured meters with such a bad apple and I can tell you that the apple is not that bad .
cristian_iepure
because nobody apparently seems to know who is the producer of WindFighter, and that label surely indicates the origin of the product -China ( unless you suspect that some famous Korean bowyer makes this kind of bows, but he does not intend to promote them as the real Korean bows are promoted) I "suppose" 99.9999999(9)% that this bow is produced in China, and also the quality went down in the past couple of years, because most of WingFighters I've seen lately seem to have problems of construction (twisted limbs, the lack of the epoxy resin between the wood layers that lead to delaminations).
You don't have to be "offended" because you got such a bow, it is a good bow even if it's a chinese one (*supposing). For it's price, it could prove to be a good deal for some buyers - almost 155eur. But as reliability and quality you can't compare them to the real Korean bows.
Daniel
Osmiu,
I don't remember an exact price, but it was less than $200 at that time. I'm almost sure that it was thesame bow as they sell today, only the price has gone up considerably.
I took this picture during my visit in 3 Rivers Archery in Sept 2006.
One of the bows hanging on the rack is "Kaya"
osmiu
cristian_iepure wrote:
I "suppose" 99.9999999(9)% that this bow is produced in China
the site http://www.aixbow.de say after the title "Wind Traditional Fighter (Reiterbogen)" ... and I quote "Traditioneller Koreanischer Bogen - 50" kurz (Reiterbogen). In Korea schie?en weitaus mehr Menschen mit traditionellen B?gen dieser Bauart als mit den bei uns bekannten Recurve-B?gen." I didn't understand german but some words used here give me the impresion that they consider fighter to be a korean traditional bow , not a chinese one . but if you wanna be a chinese one at all cost , ok ... it is a chinese one .
cristian_iepure wrote:
also the quality went down in the past couple of years, because most of WingFighters I've seen lately seem to have problems of construction (twisted limbs, the lack of the epoxy resin between the wood layers that lead to delaminations).
most of ? how many most of ? but this is true . quality went down . the lack of epoxy lead to delamination ? are you sure ? the process of shooting that particular bow without arrow and without serving the siyahs from an inexperienced user in your presence have nothing to do with it ? ok ... if you say that was a bad bow , be it . it was a bad bow . "made in China" .
but what about quality that went down in hwarang ? can you tell me more about that ? about gini's semihorn bow that delaminate from nock to nock after a few arrows shooted (and ginni is an archer with vast experince in the field , who care about his bows , is not a beginner ) . what about that hwarang who destroy itself at first full draw , even before releasing the arrow ? if fighter was made in China , that particular hwarang was made in Congo . by baboons . I hope you didn't refer to that when you are using sintagm "real korean bow" . there is no forrest without rotten trees . I supposed that you know that by now .
I'am not "offended" . But your advices are one-sided . Tell the full story.
cristian_iepure
I saw only two broken hwarang bows from a total of maybe 20 used by my friends. I also have seen A LOT OF serious dry shots being performed by beginners or not, using SMG bows, the bows were ok. I have personally drawn a Windfighter at my full draw, the string come out from the tips of the syahs and then the bow was totally destroyed, the upper arm was severely broken. I had the same problem with my old 55lbs SMG, and that was the bow that I used to shoot for learning, during an entire year I fired some dry shots, but the bow still stands on strong. The conclusion? Korean bows are reliable, the chinese replicas are not.
I have sent today an e-mail to aixbows.de, I hope we shall find out news about the bowyer, chinese or not. And, by the way, the local bow supplier, does not sell anymore Windfighter because of the proven issues of this bow. The buyer's choice is by far the Kaya's KTB.
osmiu
Daniel ...
that is the old version of kaya . the one that was selling with "hand crafted" specification ("price : $245.99The KAYA bow is a hand crafted masterpiece of Korean style bowmaking. The limbs are made of layered carbon fiber and hard wood minimizing weight while providing optimum performance. Each bow is stamped with the official seal of it`s designer, Mr Kwak Yoon Sik. The bow is made with a maple core and has carbon and fiberglass laminations")
I meant , like that : [external image]
a fighter model 2008 was like that : [external image]
a fighter model 2007 ... I don't have pictures , but is was like 2008 model but without that spotted leather pattern on the handle .
curios thing is that , when kaya model 2009 apeared , the back and the handle was covered all in spotted leather , like was the handle of the 2008 fighter model .
I meant like that : [external image]
this is the model that came in our country .
at the time that kaya was available here , I allready owned one hun toth , 2 fighters (2008 model and 2009 model , which was better). and then a hwarang . unfortunattely I didn't find the german site with all fighter models . I'am not sure , but I think that I saw there a 2006 fighter model .
osmiu
so ... I understand that for you ... a good bow is one that resist at the largest possible amount of dry shots , right ? interesting ... why you didn't say so in the first place ? we could avoid that discussion . this is the asian technique suited for Romania ... the massive dry shot ! the winner is the one with the bow still intact after a archery course .
cristian_iepure wrote:
I have personally drawn a Windfighter at my full draw, the string come out from the tips of the syahs and then the bow was totally destroyed, the upper arm was severely broken. I had the same problem with my old 55lbs SMG, and that was the bow that I used to shoot for learning, during an entire year I fired some dry shots, but the bow still stands on strong.
Did ever recall to you that bow maybe was never designed to draw at your full draw ? and any thumbringer with some experience verify from time to time string aliniament on the siyah . and you have some experience . torsion in the handle is not the same at fighter and hwarang . and you know that . like you know that first rule that must tell to a beginner is that he must never shoot or draw with thumb without an arrow on the bow . you fail to do all that , but you are qualified to draw conclusions about chinese replicas . that broke on dry shots from a poor technique .
cristian_iepure wrote:
And, by the way, the local bow supplier, does not sell anymore Windfighter because of the proven issues of this bow. The buyer's choice is by far the Kaya's KTB.
how come the fighter bow provided to me by the local bow supplier is OK even as we speak ? and the bow was sent by me to a beginner . could be the fact that I , even without any qualification in the field , do not teach the romanian dry shooting technique ?
don't forget about 34" drawing of the hwarang . maybe producers clear this subject for us .
ps : all your talking is about fighter bows damaged as a result of dry shots . OK . but what about ginni's semihorn delaminated head to toe ? without dryshots ! or that hwarang that swallow like a pumpkin at it first draw ? first draw ever !!!! that bow didn't see a dry shot not even on youtube ! what about that ??? what is the korean reliable and what is the chinese replica ?
WarBow
The KTB can send a heavier aluminum arrow down range very fast. I have a dozen newly made Easton XX75 2219 at 32" draw length with 100 grain field tips and 4" feather fletchings. The KTB shoots them out with authority! The arrows were buried 6" deep into the indoor target and I wasn't at full draw.
jchocz
cristian_iepure wrote:
...does not intend to promote them as the real Korean bows are promoted) I "suppose" 99.9999999(9)% that this bow is produced in China, and also the quality went down in the past couple of years, because most of WingFighters I've seen lately seem to have problems of construction (twisted limbs, the lack of the epoxy resin between the wood layers that lead to delaminations).
My opinion ... Most shooters damage (destroyed) when shooting a bow without arrows. The same problem arises when shooting arrows with a very low weight (shooter wants to shoot long distance ...). Microcracks are formed in the arms of the bow. The bow is not always immediate harm. Sometimes just a twisted limbs or delamination occurs (miniature). Moreover, the problem does not arise immediately, but after a while.
Good advice - to shoot arrows 8-10 / grain / lb.
It may be a problem, the quality of products from China. In this case, but rather this is not the point.
osmiu
what about "made in Korea" Samick SKB ? the magnificent korean traditional bow designed by reputated korean company Samick ? a "chinese replica" even with twisted limbs from careless shiping can beat that traditional "made in Korea" bow anytime . at all chapters . from cast , arrow speed , small noise ... to shape of the handle . if it is not destroyed before that test by some that thumbdraw the bow without arrow in it and with a shiny ring on the thumb ... zdrang ! ooops ! sorry ! it slipped ! things that happened "A LOT" in presence of some of our "experts" . or by them .
but not this is important for some . because SKB top chinese replica only at the "reability" . That meant SKB probably can sustain a higher number of dry shots . so is a better bow . more "reliable" . and of course is ... "made in Korea" ... [french]"oooo-laaaa-laaaa"
what is the conclusion of the story ? buy SKB ?
interesting way of thinking . I never see archery in this light before . It's good that someone open my mind to it .
Justin Ma
In defense of the Samick SKB, I shot a friend's 40# SKB recently and thought it was pretty nice. The arrow flew out cleanly. My only concern was the little bit of vibration in the handle after the shot (but I hope a new string with a higher brace height may alleviate that problem).
I'm just a casual observer, but there seems to be a new generation of Chinese bow makers that are active making both traditional and synthetic bows. Their products aren't on the world market yet, but they're part of an active and evolving domestic Chinese market which includes competitive products by Grozer and Korean manufacturers (though I have yet to see any references to the Windfighter on a Chinese forum).
WarBow
I am using Easton XX75 CAMO HUNTER 2219 shafts with a length of 32" from where the string touches the nock to the other end without the tip. The tip is a regular 100 grain field point and the fletchings are three 4" feather. The archery shop owner says these shafts are able to take 70# peak draw weight. Suppose Kaya is able to make a 70# KTB, will the XX75 2219 be underspined? Stephen also says that spine is not too important in Asian archery (thumb draw).
cristian_iepure
for a heavy bow you need stiffer arrows. I think that 70# @28KTB will increase the weight to 100# at 33", so the stiffer and a little bit heavier arrows (40-45grams) arrows seem to be more fit to use that bow.
Thomas Duvernay
Hey, look at me--I'm part of the 2011 Kaya catalogue^^
Kaya's 2011 catalogue is still work in progress. We, in North America, can special order the 60# KTB. In fact, I read someone special ordered a 65# version - the maximum Kaya is willing to make.
@Thomas, Kaya's Korean carbon arrows max out at 33.5". Is 34.5" available on special request?
Thomas Duvernay
WarBow,
I'm not sure--you'd have to ask Freddie.
T
Orda Khan
Warbow,
Are you drawing over 34"? I think you should consider a Jang gung for arrows that length.
WarBow
@Thomas, I already did but no replies from Freddie yet . . .
@Orda, 34" is the safer bet for now.
Thomas Duvernay
WarBow,
I know that here in Korea, arrows are up to a maximum Korean length (I think 8寸, which is about 33.4"), so that may be the longest they can supply.
Freddie asked me to carry over at least some of the 300 catalogues he needs at the ATA trade show in Indianapolis next week.
Ken
When I try to bring up the catalogue all I get is the message that it isnt a pdf or is corrupted
Thomas Duvernay
I'm just quickly checking in. I arrived in the US on Wednesday and have been working with Kaya/Greatree at the ATA trade show in Indianapolis. We have one more day tomorrow.
It's been great! I have lots of wonderful things to say about Kaya's new bows, but will comment in more detail after I get to Michigan after Sunday. However, in short, the new Khan and Dong Yi bows are a great addition to Kaya's line. The Khan adds a Korean trad bow to the choices of those who like to shoot with fingers instead of a thumb ring, as it has an arrow shelf; also, its shape is really attractive. The Dong Yi is a really nice and smooth horn bellied hybrid bow that does not sacrifice performance for looks.
I will be adding Kaya bows to my inventory to give customers a wide range of choices.
The KTB is nice to shoot with but the arrow pass leather and grip fabric are falling apart. Any idea how to fix them. I read some people use metal to replace the arrow pass. What about the grip? What do you folks use to slightly enlarge the grip and increase the friction?
Justin Ma
WarBow wrote:
What about the grip? What do you folks use to slightly enlarge the grip and increase the friction?
Try tennis grip --- especially the cushioned kind.
The KTB factory string also falls apart (fray) very quickly. Anyone tried custom-made replacement strings? The fastflight material is abrasion sensitive. It's hard to avoid rubbing against pants and other material when stringing the bow. The black thread material that covers the middle and the two ends seem prevent the core from fraying. Maybe a custom-made version can have the black thread to wrap the entire string. What do you guys think?
WillAdams
Making a new string is my next project.
My issue w/ the provided string is that it has so many strands and is so thick the only arrow nocks which I have which fit it are the Bohning Classic Nocks on Rose City Hunter Cedar Arrows.
Does any one know of nocks for 5/16" carbon arrows which would fit this string?
Justin Ma
WillAdams wrote:
Does any one know of nocks for 5/16" carbon arrows which would fit this string?
We actually found the center serving to be too thin on my friends' Kayas. They asked me to replace the default serving (which was probably 0.022" diameter) with 0.026" serving to get it to fit Easton Super Nocks and Bohning Signature Nocks correctly (this is with 5/16" carbon shafts).
If you're using 5/16" carbons and you find Super/Signature Nocks too small for the string, you might consider using Gold Tip GT Nocks, whose nock is slightly larger in diameter than the Super/Signature Nocks.
Do you have digital calipers/micrometer to measure the thickness of the center of the string?
I wont use it. The Korean bows have a ridge on the tip of the limbs where the string has to pass on the sides, while this string is made for bows with a groove in the middle of the tip, where the string passes throug.
Good Luck searching on, or making a string yourself!
MupKo
Amarutu, I fully share your opinion. For some reason, JVD archery sell it as Korean traditional string, so my dealer probably would not accept argument that it is a wrong string.
MupKo
Correction... String is actually good (except rainbow color :-) ). It has big loops. Just picture on JVD site is wrong.
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