cupid?s, apollon?s or armor?s bow
I?ve recently finished a so called Cupid?s bow according to some paintings done by some artists of the Italian Renaissance, at that time to paint sceneries of the Roman and Greek Antiquity was very popular. So the Cupid bow is not historically proven, no findings. But it is fact that the Greek have adopted the Scythian bow design, they were very impressed of it and replaced their former wooden bows with it.
In opposite to the yanghai or subeixi- bow the Cupid bow?s handle is to thick for any bending.
The client is a good customer of mine, an actual artist and former physicist. He knows how to do selfbows very well, and every now and then I got some precious advices about the physics of some bow- designs from him.
He wanted me to do the bow with heavily reflexed limbs, with an extra bending at the ends, for some bow- physical reasons. I didn?t understand it to much, as a bowyer I would not have done it, cause it means a loss of weight, but it looks exciting. He wanted the bow to draw 50lbs at 26".
The bow is done like a usual hornbow: horn at its belly, mountain- maple as a core, sinew- backed, spliced in handle, spliced in nocks.
The bow finally draws 48lbs at 26", for safety reasons it is completely covered with canvas. The canvas is a great grounding for to be painted with earth-pigments fixed with hide- glue. It is obvious that this guy?s another passion is the sea and diving.
After years of hornbow-making I?m very in doubt about the efficiency of hornbows and I?m back to selfbows. But the Cupid bow will be one of my favourites ever, I love its exciting shape.
For more details and pics go to my blog: http://redhawk55.wordpress.com.
I would appreciate some ATARNOS visiting my blog.
Sorry, cause of my actually very lame internet access, I?ll post more pics tomorrow morning.
Michael
In opposite to the yanghai or subeixi- bow the Cupid bow?s handle is to thick for any bending.
The client is a good customer of mine, an actual artist and former physicist. He knows how to do selfbows very well, and every now and then I got some precious advices about the physics of some bow- designs from him.
He wanted me to do the bow with heavily reflexed limbs, with an extra bending at the ends, for some bow- physical reasons. I didn?t understand it to much, as a bowyer I would not have done it, cause it means a loss of weight, but it looks exciting. He wanted the bow to draw 50lbs at 26".
The bow is done like a usual hornbow: horn at its belly, mountain- maple as a core, sinew- backed, spliced in handle, spliced in nocks.
The bow finally draws 48lbs at 26", for safety reasons it is completely covered with canvas. The canvas is a great grounding for to be painted with earth-pigments fixed with hide- glue. It is obvious that this guy?s another passion is the sea and diving.
After years of hornbow-making I?m very in doubt about the efficiency of hornbows and I?m back to selfbows. But the Cupid bow will be one of my favourites ever, I love its exciting shape.
For more details and pics go to my blog: http://redhawk55.wordpress.com.
I would appreciate some ATARNOS visiting my blog.
Sorry, cause of my actually very lame internet access, I?ll post more pics tomorrow morning.
Michael
i am sorry, that i must say this - but very odious- disgusting bow. Its joke , or you mean this seriously ? If yes- i think you dont understant hornbows from the start your "hornbowmaker " carrier... So coled "cupid " bow is comon - tipical hornbow(from Korean to Turkish) art stilisation. Nothing more. No one from your "hornbows" was not serios hornbow work , but this is ... more than others.
Sorry Redhawk , this is no personaly, but i dont understant this like serious job.
Sorry Redhawk , this is no personaly, but i dont understant this like serious job.
well ... and I was ready to bet that Dusan's work is in diplomacy field .
Interesting bow. The handle makes it look like a modern take-down.
By the way I like your blog.
By the way I like your blog.
The bow shouldn't have much hand shock, that's for sure :)
I guess the extra little bending part below the siyahs won't do much, but the stiff part between it and the main limb will add unused mass to the limbs, I think.
A quite different bow. We see a lot of different designs for wooden bows, but not many with horn and sinew.
I guess the extra little bending part below the siyahs won't do much, but the stiff part between it and the main limb will add unused mass to the limbs, I think.
A quite different bow. We see a lot of different designs for wooden bows, but not many with horn and sinew.
I really like the modern cupid, that drew a smile on my face :D
Thanks for the comments.
When the bow was ready everybody, who came across it, wants to shoot it, or wants to hold it. My 10 years old daughter can?t stop holding it in her hands, even she isn?t able to draw it. She is that modern Cupid, you can see on my blog. I guess I ?ve to do her Cupid- bow. This bow makes people smile, that?s true.
Kviljo, I think, without the extra bending towards the ends, the limbs( towards the handle) would bend more. My customer wanted this so- called whip- efffect, but I think the more bending towards the handle means more energy- storage.
I?m wondering again and again how many different types of hornbows are around, and the horn- maple- sinew- gang is capable of.
But it is the same with wooden bows. The majority of selfbowyers knows flatbows or English longbows. But there is much more: skinny tips, whip- ended, penobscot, Andaman, asymmetrical, norhtern 2 wood- lams, splits....................for not to look at reflex, recurve, deflex.
By the way: its interesting you go towards hornbows, I?m back to selfbows.........................
Dusan: I don?t care about your ..........comments
But I?ve to state that I got 2 pms some weeks ago from other ATARNOS, telling that they will never post here any of their work until you?ll be banned from the forum. I do a lot of public relation for the ATARN, but I feel more and more ashamed of the social behaviour you?re introducing here.
I?m waiting for the moderator to intervene.
Michael
When the bow was ready everybody, who came across it, wants to shoot it, or wants to hold it. My 10 years old daughter can?t stop holding it in her hands, even she isn?t able to draw it. She is that modern Cupid, you can see on my blog. I guess I ?ve to do her Cupid- bow. This bow makes people smile, that?s true.
Kviljo, I think, without the extra bending towards the ends, the limbs( towards the handle) would bend more. My customer wanted this so- called whip- efffect, but I think the more bending towards the handle means more energy- storage.
I?m wondering again and again how many different types of hornbows are around, and the horn- maple- sinew- gang is capable of.
But it is the same with wooden bows. The majority of selfbowyers knows flatbows or English longbows. But there is much more: skinny tips, whip- ended, penobscot, Andaman, asymmetrical, norhtern 2 wood- lams, splits....................for not to look at reflex, recurve, deflex.
By the way: its interesting you go towards hornbows, I?m back to selfbows.........................
Dusan: I don?t care about your ..........comments
But I?ve to state that I got 2 pms some weeks ago from other ATARNOS, telling that they will never post here any of their work until you?ll be banned from the forum. I do a lot of public relation for the ATARN, but I feel more and more ashamed of the social behaviour you?re introducing here.
I?m waiting for the moderator to intervene.
Michael
redhawk and Dusan
tolerant and devoir take it to any differ sound.......it is real things form one head and they are not need same to you and you need guns and pay blood got a few time same homology
tolerant and devoir take it to any differ sound.......it is real things form one head and they are not need same to you and you need guns and pay blood got a few time same homology
Thats OK. Jiao, nobody wasnt happy if read words like i wright .Everybody value world around him from his position and if i try for miself max - same i expect from others.
If you Redhawk wright from the start that this is bow from children i dont wright nothing. Long time i think that you win - becuse this is 1. April joke :lol: - but like i see - no.
To the end, if your 2 Atarnos Pm friends make same quality hornows like yours... i understand his fear. I still admire (but more wonder ) those people who post his experiments without research , teach sources - seriouz preparation or some wood /horn/sinew/glue experiences...
Good luck in work.
If you Redhawk wright from the start that this is bow from children i dont wright nothing. Long time i think that you win - becuse this is 1. April joke :lol: - but like i see - no.
To the end, if your 2 Atarnos Pm friends make same quality hornows like yours... i understand his fear. I still admire (but more wonder ) those people who post his experiments without research , teach sources - seriouz preparation or some wood /horn/sinew/glue experiences...
Good luck in work.
A whip-tillered bow might work better with lighter arrows. That's usually true with wooden bows, at least. Anyway, if that is what the customer wants, then it should be like that.
I think the major reason that we don't see as many different types of horn bows as with wooden bows, is the massive amount of work. One could probably make 20 longbows in the time it takes to make one horn bow, hehe. So it is good to see someone taking the time to try different designs with the materials :)
Honestly, Dusan, you are only harming your own reputation by posting such negative comments. Such behaviour would not be tolerated in any of the other archery-forums that I know of. I like that you want to generate some science, but good science is usually done in a polite manner. - and I don't think it is correct to interpret every post on Atarn as an attempt to do something scientific.
I think the major reason that we don't see as many different types of horn bows as with wooden bows, is the massive amount of work. One could probably make 20 longbows in the time it takes to make one horn bow, hehe. So it is good to see someone taking the time to try different designs with the materials :)
Honestly, Dusan, you are only harming your own reputation by posting such negative comments. Such behaviour would not be tolerated in any of the other archery-forums that I know of. I like that you want to generate some science, but good science is usually done in a polite manner. - and I don't think it is correct to interpret every post on Atarn as an attempt to do something scientific.
Dear all,
this discussion i expected a long time!
First: Dusan, i agree!
Second: Michael, you were the one who brought in discussion about "real horn-bows", negationed, that sience goes on. Not only this, i think we cannot reach the art of bowmaking like turkish or other bowyers in the past did; we have no master, who tells us what to do. For me your statements are sometimes the same intensive like Dusans! Please look your statements!
Sorry, for me your statements sometimes mean: go back to stoneage!
Michael, your 2 pms..................you are no gentleman! Only angry!
About this, i got angry too!
Sorry about that, but if you mean this serious, i have my experiences with your kind of seriousness, i will bann myself out of this forum!
It has to be sayed!
Sorry!
Peter
this discussion i expected a long time!
First: Dusan, i agree!
Second: Michael, you were the one who brought in discussion about "real horn-bows", negationed, that sience goes on. Not only this, i think we cannot reach the art of bowmaking like turkish or other bowyers in the past did; we have no master, who tells us what to do. For me your statements are sometimes the same intensive like Dusans! Please look your statements!
Sorry, for me your statements sometimes mean: go back to stoneage!
Michael, your 2 pms..................you are no gentleman! Only angry!
About this, i got angry too!
Sorry about that, but if you mean this serious, i have my experiences with your kind of seriousness, i will bann myself out of this forum!
It has to be sayed!
Sorry!
Peter
What's whip tillering? Is it like how the tips of this bow uncurl, and that seems to be the majority of the action?
I'm going to try stay out of the politics on this thread ...
I'm going to try stay out of the politics on this thread ...
Yep, that's about it. Whip tillering is perhaps best represented in a longbow, where most of the bend occurs towards the tips. A whip tillered longbow stores less energy, but is usually more efficient than one that bends more near the grip. Such a bow is usually better with lighter arrows. The principle should be the same for horn bows, although it seems that the shorter types need to have most of the bend near the grip to prevent stacking.
Ah, that makes sense - I guess it's less mass moving with whip tiller, hence better with lighter arrows
I let everyone make the bows he like to do.
Today we have cartoon/movie bows made as fantasy bows. There could have been fantasy bows in ancient times .
Today we have cartoon/movie bows made as fantasy bows. There could have been fantasy bows in ancient times .
I think the main issue here is: does it bring in the girls? Please ask Cupid to take it on a test run. :D
Kviljo, wasn?t it Dan Perry stating that more limb action near the grip stores more energy? If you look at f/d- curves it seems to be right.
But somehow a whip- ended bow is nothing else like a bow with an extra long handle- section.
I remember the Khotan bow, posted here by Stephen, is a hornbow with an extra- bending within its limbs?
To make another Cupid without the extra- bending would be interesting, but I don?t think there will an impact too much.
Michael
But somehow a whip- ended bow is nothing else like a bow with an extra long handle- section.
I remember the Khotan bow, posted here by Stephen, is a hornbow with an extra- bending within its limbs?
To make another Cupid without the extra- bending would be interesting, but I don?t think there will an impact too much.
Michael
Yes Stephen, 3 girls..................
Michael
Michael
Yep, Perry may well have said that. It's a fact, anyway :)
A whip ended bow can be made to store more energy by making the stiff middle part longer. The string will of course also have to be longer, which reduces the efficiency again.
I don't think it would be easy to feel any difference while drawing the bow if the outer bending part was not there. It might have been a problem if the bow should be drawn further and were heavier? My first "turkish" definitely suffers from this :)
A whip ended bow can be made to store more energy by making the stiff middle part longer. The string will of course also have to be longer, which reduces the efficiency again.
I don't think it would be easy to feel any difference while drawing the bow if the outer bending part was not there. It might have been a problem if the bow should be drawn further and were heavier? My first "turkish" definitely suffers from this :)
Yes Kviljo, I drew it further and the extra- bending increases without much more increasing drawweight.
To make bend the limbs near the handle is a kind of more secure procedure, anyway it is a question of balance, one cut to much and you?re done.......................I?ve done some trials for to allow more bending closer to the handle, I?ll post them.
Michael
To make bend the limbs near the handle is a kind of more secure procedure, anyway it is a question of balance, one cut to much and you?re done.......................I?ve done some trials for to allow more bending closer to the handle, I?ll post them.
Michael
So you draw longer with no raise of weight, it gives you longer power stroke. Make a fd curve and calculate the efficiency.
very right Redhorse,
I don?t have the bow anymore, but the customer will do the f/d.
Michael
I don?t have the bow anymore, but the customer will do the f/d.
Michael
Hmm, I think it will be the other way around. With the extra bend near the tips, it will stack earlier. With more bend near the handle, a bow will gain less pounds at the last inches of draw, and therefore a smoother draw which stores more energy.redhawk wrote:
Yes Kviljo, I drew it further and the extra- bending increases without much more increasing drawweight.
To make bend the limbs near the handle is a kind of more secure procedure, anyway it is a question of balance, one cut to much and you?re done.......................I?ve done some trials for to allow more bending closer to the handle, I?ll post them.
Michael
Early bend in the tips results in high string angle redusing levereffect resulting in stack. yes? :?
Kviljo, I guess you took me wrong.
I wanted to tell, that the extra- bending near the tips is ending up in stacking earlier. So Christian is right too.
Michael
I wanted to tell, that the extra- bending near the tips is ending up in stacking earlier. So Christian is right too.
Michael