Putting a Grozer bow in a museum?
Perhaps you would share your opinions on which type of the Grozer Extra III is the best replica bow that could represent the hornbow technology in this exhibition?
Please see the links:
http://www.grozerarchery.com/magyar/htm ... x3/j/7.htm
http://www.grozerarchery.com/magyar/htm ... x3/j/2.htm
http://www.grozerarchery.com/magyar/htm ... x3/j/3.htm
That's why I suggest to purchase this type!
( The are possible reasons, but i find them not likely.)
I have done sinew binding and it is the same color than backing, just the "lines" will go horisontal instead of vertical.
However I would assume that he would also make one bound with sinew if asked (with extra price?). I would assume binding with hemp is used only to save sinew, it does not make the process any more complicate etc. It may also be more durable.
I do not comment about historicality of the bow. There are other people in the board that know more about the subject.
Any way, according to Grozer?s webpage (text) the binding is sinew and I think he would not request any extra money for sinew binding but he should be asked!
Finally, I would also state (it?s my opinion) not only the sinew binding of Magyar bows is authentic other materials such as hemp is also authentic!
/Anyway i see in some Russian and another museums worst jokes , but our knowledge is every year higher ./
I hate to minimize the work of the guy, his bows can be slow or can have hand-shock, but when is about looking, his bows looks good. He made some fully fiberglass bows, turkish, indopersian which maybe dont shoot well, but looks perfect. I would like to have some in my museum.
:D
Dusan wrote:
I respect Grozer work and his archery aktivity , but - seriously - no one from his bows wasnt "close" to historical originals... If somone from his bows was shown in seriouz museum... joke .
/Anyway i see in some Russian and another museums worst jokes , but our knowledge is every year higher ./
First of all, I have to clearly state that I do not have any connection especially business interest with Mr Grozer; however the Dusan?s quote is very general.
I do not want to argue about the non-Hungarian Groser?s bow but being a Hungarian bow fun I would like point out some thought.
My special interest is the origin, the shape (feature) and characteristic of ancient Hungarian (HUN) horn bows from 9th to 12th century.
I?ve studied several essays of excavations focusing on bow bone plates from the graves. Unfortunately, only bone plates remained (many pieces) in the graves but the plates? positions are measured and noted.
http://botondbow.u.yuku.com/photos/view/pid/787886
http://botondbow.u.yuku.com/photos/view/pid/787974
http://botondbow.u.yuku.com/photos/view/pid/787975
It is also right that so many question marks still exist today; however the general shape of HUN bow is agreed which is quite in line with Groser?s Magyar bow shape.
http://869789182725854870-a-botondbow-c ... edirects=0
http://869789182725854870-a-botondbow-c ... edirects=0
So I would really appreciate if you Dusan explain us how you can come to the final conclusion that the Grozer?s Hungarian bows are not close to historical originals (what?s wrong) and please share your knowledge what is the original HUN bow characteristic (size, form).
I dont know who starts in Hungary this tipical mistakes in replikas construction- but all bowmakers in Hungary have same construction sick and this problems you can see evan in new hornbowmakers /what i can say from some i see/.!
I see Botondbow site and his good work. He was very talented. But evan in his hornbows you can see this polyester mistakes. I mean that Grozer was starter of this enormous construction sick. Maybe this is big Grozer personality influence...who know ?
If Dusan has a better bow to offer at the same sum of money, I would be very interested... :) - this is of course also a question of funds, where there is not unlimited rescources to gather original artefacts.
All is clear. I hope you give your Turkish hornbow like givt for museum. Vith every mi skepticizm about your bow , i think that your bow is better performer than Grozers... :D
At least my bow did shoot 274 meters - with a draw of only 22 inches 8) It will live the rest of it's days hanging on the wall as a reminder of what not to do... :)
Because of the angle at the base of the siyah plates, getting that angle is pretty well known. Those plates generally have cross hatching on their bases which demonstrates they are part of the core and had the sinew backing extend up on to them. Bows from Central Asia of the period have round cross section bends at the siyah. This may not be the most efficient shape but this is what was done. Stephen has posted two Mongol bows with this detail, I have posted two Mongol bows with this detail and Andrew and I posted two Hun derived bow from the Silk Road with this detail. I also think the siyah should follow the cross section of Stephen's Mongol bow, as a pattern. The shape is very traditional, like the shape of a violin scroll.
Horn seemed the wrong material until the discovery of the Miran bows which have horn siyah plates so this looks to be traditional but who knows how common.
By the shape of grip plates it can be seen that the grip is straight but the limbs are thrown forward at the transition to the limbs. How much would be a matter of taste. Paintings from the period show bows shaped like the Grozer link but others from graves have the siyahs being closer to parallel; to my thinking more like an unused Qing/Manchu bow.
I would think that rather than close windings of sinew the originals had a more skin like oblique winding which could help stabilize the bow as well as keeping it together, say in the manner of the Yanghai Scythian bows, also the Miran bows. This skin would be from nock to nock covering the entire bow.
Then the entire bow would be covered in birchbark. I know as a bow maker that there is a great pride in the complexity of this construction but historically a bow is covered in bark for this period.
A bow is best displayed when strung but it does not seem advisable to do this to a hornbow. One such item in the Bows and arrows museum in Korea has become badly misshaped from being left strung in a case. At any rate a display bow should not be strung and shot because those who do so mostly do not know what they are doing and will soon break a hornbow.
So a display prop is indicated and this might cost much less than a real but fragile hornbow, a despicable "wallhanger".
Dusan seriously, please tell me what does ?polyester mistakes? mean we commit all time concerning HUN bows? shape?Dusan wrote:
..... But evan in his hornbows you can see this polyester mistakes. I mean that Grozer was starter of this enormous construction sick. Maybe this is big Grozer personality influence...who know ?
Should we be marching on a wrong road please give us guidance (highlight specific details) which direction (way) is the correct one!
I?m not kidding, I?m very eager to learn every new aspect of HUN bows (might not be taken into account in my country) and in order to improve our bows all information is very welcome!
Maybe you was that right man!
Can you explain Atarns how started evolution in bowmakers in Hungary. How many bowmakers working . How many was hornbowmakers?And some details about his work ? We can see in your video from Flight shootin another Turkish horn bow.I believe thats all this was very interesting for Atarns.
I see somet new generation hornbow makers(like you), but vith no info.
Now about Polyester disain./its big problem to me , how explanation what i think vith mi bad english.../
We discus here about this thema some times ago. If you look closely especialy in joint part between static ear and bending part, you can see biggest problem . Same "haevy"problem continue to ear part. Another problem is bending part shape/wood shape, horn shape/ very diferent -if you compare vith polyester bows. Some hungary bowmakers- what i can see- construct his bending part exactly like polyester bows - vit flat wood and flat horns glued together. Another question - handle part... More and more details... In finish, what i see in Madyars bowmakers bows (Hun or Mongol or Madyar or Sz?kely or what ever you call him ...) its haevy (in weight sense- not draw) slow bow vith bad eficiency. But i dont see many hornbows from Madyars bowmakers !
I assume more hornbowmakers in Hungary - maybe . Anyway your bows looks very promising . Go out from all this "big joints" and sinew or cord reel.
Biggest hornbow secret is minimal weight vith maximal eficiency.
(Dont think that i am so "reasonable" :lol: , i make mistakes and destroy so many bows last 10 years ... :roll: )
Dusan wrote:
At first- welcom here in Atarnet Peter. I am happy taht somone new from Hungary- especialy hornbowmaker is here.Because - and this is nodiscusion fact- Hungary -small European country is "big monster" in asiatic stile archery production and from this position only 2 or 3 persons go to Atarn . So many questions is interesting from Madyars archery live.
Maybe you was that right man!
Can you explain Atarns how started evolution in bowmakers in Hungary. How many bowmakers working . How many was hornbowmakers?And some details about his work ? We can see in your video from Flight shootin another Turkish horn bow.I believe thats all this was very interesting for Atarns.
I see somet new generation hornbow makers(like you), but vith no info.
Now about Polyester disain./its big problem to me , how explanation what i think vith mi bad english.../
We discus here about this thema some times ago. If you look closely especialy in joint part between static ear and bending part, you can see biggest problem . Same "haevy"problem continue to ear part. Another problem is bending part shape/wood shape, horn shape/ very diferent -if you compare vith polyester bows. Some hungary bowmakers- what i can see- construct his bending part exactly like polyester bows - vit flat wood and flat horns glued together. Another question - handle part... More and more details... In finish, what i see in Madyars bowmakers bows (Hun or Mongol or Madyar or Sz?kely or what ever you call him ...) its haevy (in weight sense- not draw) slow bow vith bad eficiency. But i dont see many hornbows from Madyars bowmakers !
I assume more hornbowmakers in Hungary - maybe . Anyway your bows looks very promising . Go out from all this "big joints" and sinew or cord reel.
Biggest hornbow secret is minimal weight vith maximal eficiency.
(Dont think that i am so "reasonable" :lol: , i make mistakes and destroy so many bows last 10 years ... :roll: )
Dusan thanks for your welcoming words!
I try to answer your questions; however it is impossible to reply for all ?cause I?m not an archeologist and also my English is quite poor.
1. As far as I know the reborn of HUN horn bows at least dated back to 1933 when an archeologist K?roly Cs. Sebesty?n first identified that bone plates from ancient Hungarian graves are bow reinforcements. Based on his finds, he and later some other experts (eg. Gyula F?bian) built successfully usable HUN horn bows. That?s why these HUN bow designs much older than so called new polyester form (copy of Grozer?s polyesters).
http://picasaweb.google.com/botondbow/M ... 0270236082
http://picasaweb.google.com/botondbow/M ... 1078157442
2. The bone plates' (grip and siyah) proportions and forms are facts what we have to consider once we want to build a HUN bow replica! These proportions are the guidelines for all HUN bow bowyers.
3. Maximal efficiency is also important for us; however, the bow replica originality is more important and please do not forget that the HUN bow design is at least 500 years older than the later invented Turkish or Korean design!
4. Me personally and other bowyers are working hard to reduce the ?heavy joints? in order to lighten the limbs and syahs but again it has an originality limit!
http://picasaweb.google.com/botondbow/M ... 8410290114
5. Other fact is that our ancestors used binding (reel) of joints because several bone-plates have grooving (engraving).
http://botondbow.u.yuku.com/photos/view/pid/787886
Concerning the HUN horn bow makers (bowyers) Mr Grozer is the only one. The other eight to ten horn bow maker (me also) just do this fancy activity as a hobby! The most experienced and well-known among us is Sandor Paku who has also posted several times in ATARN.
I hope, I could answer some your questions.
Finally, please understand that keeping the original proportions (design barriers) we are eagerly working on the most efficient HUN bows and again all comments are really welcome!
Dont think that i or another Atarnos dont know about old hun or another static ears tipe bows. Hun and other midleeast or Mongolian step tribes live some bone plates in his "road". Not only in Hungaria, but in Slovak teritory (north from Dunay ) evan in Czechia . (Hungary teritory and pusta was oldest Slavs teritory - but this is another thema)We have not only Hun bon plates but Avar bows plates too. Same bone plates was in many archeological finds in Ukraina, Gruzia , Mongolia...(You can see in mi "Russian archeological findings)
What is more important , in Ukraina /Kaukaz/ find All bows ! Not only bone plates. You certainly know Moshevaya Balka bows ! No one from this bows haevnt this big haevy joint -any historical limit ! If bones have groves- its not because need binding , but because sinew layer continue to static ear part.
I know that static , no worked ears bows is not same like Turkish or Korean bows :lol: believe me ....
This stile of bows was very big famili from Siberia to China in very small or biggest diferences . But you and your bowmakers friends from Hungary have lucky , because many of this bows was found especialy in dry china deserts in very good condition( Korean museums etc.). You can teach in real fregments - not only from fantasy archeologist K?roly Cs. Sebesty?n .
Can you show us more Madyar bowmakers , his bows - more about todays Madyar bowmakers live ? From yours videos its looks like you have very intensive workshops :D
( I have more questions /for ex. why some Madyars identify vith Hun tribes ? Beacuse i dont see any mutual facts... But this is not important./)
Keep good work .
Dusan,Dusan wrote:
Peter, thanks for answer, but when you made replicas , you must colected all historical and archeologist sources ( i believe you do). What you write show the oldest mistake in hun reconstruction disain.
Dont think that i or another Atarnos dont know about old hun or another static ears tipe bows. Hun and other midleeast or Mongolian step tribes live some bone plates in his "road". Not only in Hungaria, but in Slovak teritory (north from Dunay ) evan in Czechia . (Hungary teritory and pusta was oldest Slavs teritory - but this is another thema)We have not only Hun bon plates but Avar bows plates too. Same bone plates was in many archeological finds in Ukraina, Gruzia , Mongolia...(You can see in mi "Russian archeological findings)
What is more important , in Ukraina /Kaukaz/ find All bows ! Not only bone plates. You certainly know Moshevaya Balka bows ! No one from this bows haevnt this big haevy joint -any historical limit ! If bones have groves- its not because need binding , but because sinew layer continue to static ear part.
I know that static , no worked ears bows is not same like Turkish or Korean bows :lol: believe me ....
This stile of bows was very big famili from Siberia to China in very small or biggest diferences . But you and your bowmakers friends from Hungary have lucky , because many of this bows was found especialy in dry china deserts in very good condition( Korean museums etc.). You can teach in real fregments - not only from fantasy archeologist K?roly Cs. Sebesty?n .
Can you show us more Madyar bowmakers , his bows - more about todays Madyar bowmakers live ? From yours videos its looks like you have very intensive workshops :D
( I have more questions /for ex. why some Madyars identify vith Hun tribes ? Beacuse i dont see any mutual facts... But this is not important./)
Keep good work .
First of all, I would move this discussion to another topic (e.g. Making bows arrows and staff / Thought on making a Hungarian hornbow?) but I was asked here so I answer under this topic.
Please believe me, we also study and collect available historical and archeologist sources focusing on not only the present Hungarian territory. We are not walking lidded eyes! We have several Hun, Avar and Hungarian bow finds from the historical and present Hungarian territory!
I would not really go into a battle of words (argument) who were the first in the Carpatian basin Slavian vs. Hun/Avar/Hungarian tribes ?cause it might have political influence ? and consequently I wanna avoid it! Additionally, if you do not know any fact or proves why we Hungarians (also the World) identify ourselves as Huns, this not means the absence of any evidence (we do have)!
We (you and me) have been educated by different schools and sources ? so no chance to convince each other ? forget it!
This forum has a limit to discus these things that?s why please be officially invited (also anybody) for the next bow making event (we conduct it in Hungary year by year) when we can discus these topics during the challenging horn bow making!
Any way let?s go back to bows, you are right we have quite intensive ?workshop? and archer life. However, the majority of HUN free time bowyers (hobbyist) does not advertise or public theirs products. Even we countrymen can not see so many new horn bows!
Now, there?s an initiation to collect all HUN horn bowyers (more than ten folks) to exchange our experience as well as to set common standards in order to be on the same platform. It takes time but the will does exist!
Finally, I'm a greenhorn bowyer please do not generalize even make equal my mistakes (commited several times) with HUN bow designs!
Regardless above mentioned, I?ll show new bows made by any HUN bowyer once I?ve got info.
Respectfully,
Peter
:lol:
/Pleaee dont think i desire be offending or attack your political or idelogi opinion. I am only curious :D , beacause some information about Madyar life was still very actual in Slovakia.
Sorry , but our school and close territory is same :D . Half of mi family live in Hungary /like maybe half of Slovaks have his families in Hungary and ours granfathers live in same Austro-Hungary. Tats why one is courious what hapening in Hungary. But i didnt asked you , if its unpleasant./
Like you said - Hornbows are important fo us. I like your work progress, good luck.
Dusan,Dusan wrote:
Peter, most of us here are hobbist too.Evan if you make hornbows for sale , like "profesional" (Luka? Novotn?, Adam Karpowitz- maybe Yokhua) thase peopla started like we others -hobbists vith high intensite interesting ! From the other side , i think Atarn help many Historician or archeologist understand more about bows. To this days stay bows in some museums vith string in wrong side
:lol:
/Pleaee dont think i desire be offending or attack your political or idelogi opinion. I am only curious :D , beacause some information about Madyar life was still very actual in Slovakia.
Sorry , but our school and close territory is same :D . Half of mi family live in Hungary /like maybe half of Slovaks have his families in Hungary and ours granfathers live in same Austro-Hungary. Tats why one is courious what hapening in Hungary. But i didnt asked you , if its unpleasant./
Like you said - Hornbows are important fo us. I like your work progress, good luck.
You can ask me any time it is never unpleasant! I?m always open for horn bow discussion ?cause I wanna learn as much as possible especially from those who are more experienced than me!
Based on your very useful posts, I?m pretty sure that you?ve completed several horn bows. Would you show or post some details about them under a new topic or under ?Making bows arrows and staff / Thought on making a Hungarian hornbow?? topic where we continue the discussion.
Should you have any thoughts or questions, let?s move there!
v/r
Peter
Question about mi bows was here long time thema :lol: - because mi critic posts - everyone here asked me - hey , Du?an comon - show your bows if you are so experienced !
Well mi position is in topic about me, http://atarn.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1646
:lol:
I must say you that i started 10 years ago vit static ears (mongol/hun like bows), because its "simpliest" (but its looks only vith Turkish or Skitas bows compare - every high quality work is not simple (!) ) than Turkish Crab or Korean bows. But mi hard is more attract to Turkish hornbows . If i understan basic princips in static ears bows i imediatly jumping to Turkish bows.
Than i cant say - i fully know all about Hun bows.
From other side if you "fighting " vith Turkish bow construction 9 years you slowly understand more about all hornbows . Satic ears bows was slower and badly eficienci against top of hornbows list- Turkish hornbows. Thats fact.
From this reason i haevnt any motivation continue work in this tipe of bows. Except old Mongolian /Temudzin ?ra bow . I think - and archeological founds show us orientation , that this bow was somthing like Yuan/India Crab /Indopersian bow and its still iteresting me.
I am no bow mass producer i have this benefit- like hobby man- show only best of mi work and this - if all be good - i do :D
(I understand if other people love showing his no perfekt work. Thats no mi way.)
Dusan, my reply is available here: http://atarn.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=17975#17975Dusan wrote:
Ok about Hungarian bow discusion , better continue in "Hungaria hornbow makink" topic , but answer about mi bows i write here.
Question about mi bows was here long time thema :lol: - because mi critic posts - everyone here asked me - hey , Du?an comon - show your bows if you are so experienced !
Well mi position is in topic about me, http://atarn.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1646
:lol:
I must say you that i started 10 years ago vit static ears (mongol/hun like bows), because its "simpliest" (but its looks only vith Turkish or Skitas bows compare - every high quality work is not simple (!) ) than Turkish Crab or Korean bows. But mi hard is more attract to Turkish hornbows . If i understan basic princips in static ears bows i imediatly jumping to Turkish bows.
Than i cant say - i fully know all about Hun bows.
From other side if you "fighting " vith Turkish bow construction 9 years you slowly understand more about all hornbows . Satic ears bows was slower and badly eficienci against top of hornbows list- Turkish hornbows. Thats fact.
From this reason i haevnt any motivation continue work in this tipe of bows. Except old Mongolian /Temudzin ?ra bow . I think - and archeological founds show us orientation , that this bow was somthing like Yuan/India Crab /Indopersian bow and its still iteresting me.
I am no bow mass producer i have this benefit- like hobby man- show only best of mi work and this - if all be good - i do :D
(I understand if other people love showing his no perfekt work. Thats no mi way.)