Two composite bows - ready for sinew (1/6)
Dear all, after visiting some Europeans museums, tacking hundreds of pictures and thanks to personal contacts excact measurements of Turkish bows.
Some days ago I finished two cores.
Some Details
Core: Bamboo with groovings, about 4 mm
Handle: Kornel Kirsche (cherry tree)
Ears: once yew, once acacia
Buffalo horns (convex), about 5 mm thick
Now they are ready for sinews
Reto
Some days ago I finished two cores.
Some Details
Core: Bamboo with groovings, about 4 mm
Handle: Kornel Kirsche (cherry tree)
Ears: once yew, once acacia
Buffalo horns (convex), about 5 mm thick
Now they are ready for sinews
Reto
page two
Page 3
page 4
page 5
page 6
Those bows look great.
Do you think you could share more information about the drawings underneath the bows?
Do you think you could share more information about the drawings underneath the bows?
Hi Reto,
that looks pretty fine. I'm curious how they will perform when finished.
Can you give some more informations as expected draw weight, dimensions and so on?
Axel
that looks pretty fine. I'm curious how they will perform when finished.
Can you give some more informations as expected draw weight, dimensions and so on?
Axel
I got the chance to make another 2 bows. Please find attached the picutres of my 4 bows after the first layer of sinews. Three layers will follow.
(J'ai eu le temps pour construire deux arcs composites en plus. Ci-joint vous trouverez quelques images/impr?ssion apr?s la premi?re couche de tendons. En total ils auront 4 couche..)
Reto
(J'ai eu le temps pour construire deux arcs composites en plus. Ci-joint vous trouverez quelques images/impr?ssion apr?s la premi?re couche de tendons. En total ils auront 4 couche..)
Reto
pic 2
pic 3
pic 4
2nd layer of sinew. All wrapped with tapes for 24 hrs and then starts the drying period for another 3 - 4 weeks
Some updated pictures by July 2007 - mise ? jour des photos sur le forum le 1er juillet 2006
01/07
01/07
Some updated pictures by July 2007 - mise ? jour des photos sur le forum le 1er juillet 2006
02/07
02/07
03/07
04/07
05/07
06/07
07/07
08
From what animal did you took tendons? What glue did you used for sinewing?
Raw materials
Core: Bamboo with groovings (approx. 1.4 mm)
Handle: Kornel Kirsche (cherry tree)
Ears: two bows with yew, two bows with acacia
Buffalo horns (convex), about 5 - 6 mm thick
Hide glue from www.dick.biz ( Nr. 450157)
Sinews: leg tendons/back sinews from deers/elks
Reto
Core: Bamboo with groovings (approx. 1.4 mm)
Handle: Kornel Kirsche (cherry tree)
Ears: two bows with yew, two bows with acacia
Buffalo horns (convex), about 5 - 6 mm thick
Hide glue from www.dick.biz ( Nr. 450157)
Sinews: leg tendons/back sinews from deers/elks
Reto
Reto
The bows are looking good. Your museum research paid off in the extra detail in areas like the ears compared to my first attempt at a Turkish bow.
The asymmetric bow is interesting. Taybugha (translated in Saracen Archery by Latham and Patterson) recommends an asymmetric design with an upper dustar about 12mm longer than the lower and an upper siyah 6mm longer. I believe this is rare in surviving bows which are generally much later than his 14th C text. It would be interesting to know more about the bow you based it on.
How thick is the horn in the limbs - you mention 5-6mm thickness. My bow is about that in the grip, but only 3.2mm in the limbs (with the core about the same).
Regards
Andrew
The bows are looking good. Your museum research paid off in the extra detail in areas like the ears compared to my first attempt at a Turkish bow.
The asymmetric bow is interesting. Taybugha (translated in Saracen Archery by Latham and Patterson) recommends an asymmetric design with an upper dustar about 12mm longer than the lower and an upper siyah 6mm longer. I believe this is rare in surviving bows which are generally much later than his 14th C text. It would be interesting to know more about the bow you based it on.
How thick is the horn in the limbs - you mention 5-6mm thickness. My bow is about that in the grip, but only 3.2mm in the limbs (with the core about the same).
Regards
Andrew
Andrew,
about thickness of the limbs. I measured quite some Turkish "horsebows" and "flight bows". No matter what design they had, the core thickness was always about 1,3 up to 1,4 cm. I did not find a "thicker" limb at all. They varied in the width (from 3,0 to 3,8 cm) but even the heavy war bow (infantery bow) of 3,8 cm width had a thickness of 1,4 cm.
All my bows are going to have either 1,3 or 1,4 cm thickness to match the originals. Estimated bow weigth: 60 - 90 pounds - let's wait and see.
The cores (bamboo) have a thickness of about 4 mm and the horns vary from 6 down to 4 mm. At the bending porting, the bows (wood and horn) have a similar thickness of 9 mm.
My reference or sources are the measurements of turkish bows in "t?rk okculugu" by ?nsal Y?cel. Their is a special chapter about this topic.
Summary of this chapter:
Core/wood: between 4 and 7 mm
Horn: between 4 and 6 mm
Sinew: between 2 and 3 mm
Reto
about thickness of the limbs. I measured quite some Turkish "horsebows" and "flight bows". No matter what design they had, the core thickness was always about 1,3 up to 1,4 cm. I did not find a "thicker" limb at all. They varied in the width (from 3,0 to 3,8 cm) but even the heavy war bow (infantery bow) of 3,8 cm width had a thickness of 1,4 cm.
All my bows are going to have either 1,3 or 1,4 cm thickness to match the originals. Estimated bow weigth: 60 - 90 pounds - let's wait and see.
The cores (bamboo) have a thickness of about 4 mm and the horns vary from 6 down to 4 mm. At the bending porting, the bows (wood and horn) have a similar thickness of 9 mm.
My reference or sources are the measurements of turkish bows in "t?rk okculugu" by ?nsal Y?cel. Their is a special chapter about this topic.
Summary of this chapter:
Core/wood: between 4 and 7 mm
Horn: between 4 and 6 mm
Sinew: between 2 and 3 mm
Reto
Reto
Thanks for the information. T?rk Okculugu sounds useful. Can you read Turkish or are translations available?
I could not find any specific measurements on the Turkish bows before starting mine (Klopsteg only mentions core thickness - and at 2.4-4.8mm is thinner than ?nsal Y?cel). I looks like my bow is biased towards the sinew. I have all three layers being about the same thickness, with a mid-limb thickness of about 10mm under the leather for a 46" long circa 50lb bow.
The bow I attempted to copy is 1.5cm thick mid limb including the leather cover (the leather I used is 0.6mm thick). Most of the Turkish bows in the Grayson collection database are within your thickness range, but a few are outside. One flight bow is only 1cm thick, and another bow is a chunky 1.7cm thick. These measurements would include the outer covering if present.
Regards
Andrew
Thanks for the information. T?rk Okculugu sounds useful. Can you read Turkish or are translations available?
I could not find any specific measurements on the Turkish bows before starting mine (Klopsteg only mentions core thickness - and at 2.4-4.8mm is thinner than ?nsal Y?cel). I looks like my bow is biased towards the sinew. I have all three layers being about the same thickness, with a mid-limb thickness of about 10mm under the leather for a 46" long circa 50lb bow.
The bow I attempted to copy is 1.5cm thick mid limb including the leather cover (the leather I used is 0.6mm thick). Most of the Turkish bows in the Grayson collection database are within your thickness range, but a few are outside. One flight bow is only 1cm thick, and another bow is a chunky 1.7cm thick. These measurements would include the outer covering if present.
Regards
Andrew
Andrew,
Ref./Source: T?rk Ok?culugu by ?nsal Y?cel, page 256 ff, see attachment
Reto
Ref./Source: T?rk Ok?culugu by ?nsal Y?cel, page 256 ff, see attachment
Reto
Reto
Interesting. Does anyone know of any experiments on the effects of varying the ratios of horn/wood/sinew? I would assume that a construction with more core and less horn and sinew would be lighter and stiffer at the same thickness. It would also have the advantage of quicker construction (it takes me ages to process the sinew well), but have higher stresses.
Regards
Andrew
Interesting. Does anyone know of any experiments on the effects of varying the ratios of horn/wood/sinew? I would assume that a construction with more core and less horn and sinew would be lighter and stiffer at the same thickness. It would also have the advantage of quicker construction (it takes me ages to process the sinew well), but have higher stresses.
Regards
Andrew
Shame on me, I mixed up - here the correct translation. Sorry guys why didn't you complain?
Reto
Reto
Andrew, you are right, but the arrow-speed would slow down.
I could remember that there had been some experiments on the ratios of horn/core/sinew by Jeffrey Schmidt, but I can?t remember the exact results.
It is obvious that there has to be a certain thickness of the core for to keep the bow straight in line. But I would advice to make the core as thick as the horn, not thicker. You loose a lot of arrow-speed if the core is thicker. Add 2-4 layers of sinew-backing, that?s enough.
Maybe you remember my reconstructions of scythian hornbows I?ve posted here during spring of 2005. I was disappointed of the arrow-speed, about 150f/sec. I?ve done another reconstruction by reducing core-thickness about 50%, the limbs have much more reflex, this bow is much faster. Tests will be within the next 2 weeks. I?ll post the results and pics in the ATARNet.
I guess that we also need an extended understanding of the groovings in the horn and the core. I?m sure the groovings are not done only for a secure glueing, the profile keeps the bow-limbs straight in line.
It is clear that the material of the core is very important, I got the best results with mountain- or rock maple, I?ll never use any other wood or bamboo for hornbows.
I would say that a hornbow has to be in such an outstanding balance like a spiders web.
Michael
I could remember that there had been some experiments on the ratios of horn/core/sinew by Jeffrey Schmidt, but I can?t remember the exact results.
It is obvious that there has to be a certain thickness of the core for to keep the bow straight in line. But I would advice to make the core as thick as the horn, not thicker. You loose a lot of arrow-speed if the core is thicker. Add 2-4 layers of sinew-backing, that?s enough.
Maybe you remember my reconstructions of scythian hornbows I?ve posted here during spring of 2005. I was disappointed of the arrow-speed, about 150f/sec. I?ve done another reconstruction by reducing core-thickness about 50%, the limbs have much more reflex, this bow is much faster. Tests will be within the next 2 weeks. I?ll post the results and pics in the ATARNet.
I guess that we also need an extended understanding of the groovings in the horn and the core. I?m sure the groovings are not done only for a secure glueing, the profile keeps the bow-limbs straight in line.
It is clear that the material of the core is very important, I got the best results with mountain- or rock maple, I?ll never use any other wood or bamboo for hornbows.
I would say that a hornbow has to be in such an outstanding balance like a spiders web.
Michael
The thickness measurement is meaningful only if the length measurements is also followed. The thickness of 1 to 1.7 mm is the usual measurement. At the same time the average length of an Ottoman bow is only 42 inches between the nocks (as measured along the cureve, not at the belly or the back), most bows fit withing this range.
It is true the horn seems to be the thickest layer in the composite. However, I have seen many bows with horn only abot 2mm in the bending section. From my experience more wood makes a bow more stable. As to the efficiency of bows with the varied thickness of the layers, there are too many variables to consider to be sure, but flight bows would have in proportion a bit more sinew, not horn.
Adam
It is true the horn seems to be the thickest layer in the composite. However, I have seen many bows with horn only abot 2mm in the bending section. From my experience more wood makes a bow more stable. As to the efficiency of bows with the varied thickness of the layers, there are too many variables to consider to be sure, but flight bows would have in proportion a bit more sinew, not horn.
Adam
Hi guys,
My question: I see on retos (beautiful) bows, that the wood he uses for the grip is glued with the grain vertical to the core. Does it make a difference if you glue it with the grain vertikal or parallel to the core (except stiffness)? My experience by splitting wood is, its more easy to split it rectangular to the grain than parallel.
Peter
My question: I see on retos (beautiful) bows, that the wood he uses for the grip is glued with the grain vertical to the core. Does it make a difference if you glue it with the grain vertikal or parallel to the core (except stiffness)? My experience by splitting wood is, its more easy to split it rectangular to the grain than parallel.
Peter
Average :
HORN %
6,0 mm 45,2%
CORE %
4,8 mm 36,0%
SINEW %
2,5 mm 18,8%
TOTAL
13,3 mm 100%
Horn : 36-52%
Wood : 30-41%
Sinew : 15-27%
BUT Some bows have the same thickness of horn and core.
Some bows have more horn thickness than core.
All the bows have a smaller proportion of sinew. Quite surprising.
But we don't know what kind of bow we compare...
Reto we would need the length and shape of these bows.
This would be very interesting and useful.
One can not compare flight bows with the others i suppose...
Thank you for these informations.
:wink:
HORN %
6,0 mm 45,2%
CORE %
4,8 mm 36,0%
SINEW %
2,5 mm 18,8%
TOTAL
13,3 mm 100%
Horn : 36-52%
Wood : 30-41%
Sinew : 15-27%
BUT Some bows have the same thickness of horn and core.
Some bows have more horn thickness than core.
All the bows have a smaller proportion of sinew. Quite surprising.
But we don't know what kind of bow we compare...
Reto we would need the length and shape of these bows.
This would be very interesting and useful.
One can not compare flight bows with the others i suppose...
Thank you for these informations.
:wink:
Some updated pictures of the asymmetric bow
Length upper limb: 52 cm
Length lower limb: 50 cm
Length of "ears": 9.8 cm
Width of "ears": between 1,1 and 1,4 cm
01/05
Length upper limb: 52 cm
Length lower limb: 50 cm
Length of "ears": 9.8 cm
Width of "ears": between 1,1 and 1,4 cm
01/05
02/05
03/05
04/05
05/05
Peter, I always use the wood with the growthrings running along the length of a bow(parallel).
But along the grip-section there is no or almost no bend, so it doesn?t matter to much wether you use the wood with parallel or vertical running growthrings.
Adam, I agree. I?ve done a lot of research about the horn/wood/sinew-ratio. A thicker core makes a composite more stable but arrow-speed will slow down.
The Bighorn Mountain Sheephorn bows are done without a wooden core and they are really unstable, if the weather is changing the tiller is changing, performance in wet climate will be bad.
Michael
But along the grip-section there is no or almost no bend, so it doesn?t matter to much wether you use the wood with parallel or vertical running growthrings.
Adam, I agree. I?ve done a lot of research about the horn/wood/sinew-ratio. A thicker core makes a composite more stable but arrow-speed will slow down.
The Bighorn Mountain Sheephorn bows are done without a wooden core and they are really unstable, if the weather is changing the tiller is changing, performance in wet climate will be bad.
Michael
updated bow no 6
01/06
Some details:
Length of the limbs: 50 cm
Width: 3.3 cm
Thickness bamboo core: 4,5 cm
Thickness horn: 5 cm
Thickness at the bending part of the bow: 1,3 cm
3 layers of sinew
Ears total length: 9.8 cm
Length nock to the top end: 2,6 cm
Widest part of the ears: 1,4 cm
Narrowest part of the ears: 1.1 cm
Another 4 - 6 months to dry
01/06
Some details:
Length of the limbs: 50 cm
Width: 3.3 cm
Thickness bamboo core: 4,5 cm
Thickness horn: 5 cm
Thickness at the bending part of the bow: 1,3 cm
3 layers of sinew
Ears total length: 9.8 cm
Length nock to the top end: 2,6 cm
Widest part of the ears: 1,4 cm
Narrowest part of the ears: 1.1 cm
Another 4 - 6 months to dry
02/07
03/07
04/07
05/07
06/07
07/07
updated turkish infantery war bow (11 pics)
Some details:
Length of the limbs: 51 cm
Widest part of the limb: 3,6 cm (original 3,9 cm)
Thickness bamboo core: 0,5 cm
Thickness horn: 0,5 cm
Thickness at the bending part of the bow: 1,3 cm
3 layers of sinew
Ears total length: 10,5 cm
Length nock to the top end: 2,6 cm
Widest part of the ears: 1,4 cm
Narrowest part of the ears: 1.2 cm
Another 4 - 6 months to dry
Some details:
Length of the limbs: 51 cm
Widest part of the limb: 3,6 cm (original 3,9 cm)
Thickness bamboo core: 0,5 cm
Thickness horn: 0,5 cm
Thickness at the bending part of the bow: 1,3 cm
3 layers of sinew
Ears total length: 10,5 cm
Length nock to the top end: 2,6 cm
Widest part of the ears: 1,4 cm
Narrowest part of the ears: 1.2 cm
Another 4 - 6 months to dry
02/11
03
04/11
05/11
06/11
07/11
08/11
09/11
10/11
11/11
updated turkish infantery war bow II
(11 pics)
Some details:
Length of the limbs: 50 cm
Widest part of the limb: 3,4 cm (original 3,6 cm)
Thickness bamboo core: 0,5 cm
Thickness horn: 0,5 cm
Thickness at the bending part of the bow: 1,3 cm
3 layers of sinew
Ears total length: 11,5 cm
Length nock to the top end: 2,6 cm
Widest part of the ears: 1,4 cm
Narrowest part of the ears: 1.2 cm
Another 3 - 5 months to dry
(11 pics)
Some details:
Length of the limbs: 50 cm
Widest part of the limb: 3,4 cm (original 3,6 cm)
Thickness bamboo core: 0,5 cm
Thickness horn: 0,5 cm
Thickness at the bending part of the bow: 1,3 cm
3 layers of sinew
Ears total length: 11,5 cm
Length nock to the top end: 2,6 cm
Widest part of the ears: 1,4 cm
Narrowest part of the ears: 1.2 cm
Another 3 - 5 months to dry
02/11
03/11
04/11
05/11
.. do you see the nice "curves" of the bow - like a woman
regardez la belle figure/les proportions de cette femme ..
.. do you see the nice "curves" of the bow - like a woman
regardez la belle figure/les proportions de cette femme ..
06/11
07/11
08/11
09/11
10/11
11/11 the family is complete
I have been watching this bow develope for some time. Your craftsmanship is amazing. I cannot wait to see this bow strung. How long now has the sinew been on? 6 months?
Parbleu ! saubere Arbeit .. :shock: :shock: :shock:
Reto, those are beautiful looking bows, have you started tillering them yet?
good luck
Mike
good luck
Mike
.... I let them dry for another 6 - 8 months (or 20 months drying period for the first layer and 18 months for the last), which means I will start "tillering" them earliest in October / November 2007.
But, I am now in the process of finishing another 4 bows (last layers of sinews) the next couple of days (Eastern holidays). The shapes are like the ones from a circle/almost brezel in the end
Anyway I will let you know...
Reto
But, I am now in the process of finishing another 4 bows (last layers of sinews) the next couple of days (Eastern holidays). The shapes are like the ones from a circle/almost brezel in the end
Anyway I will let you know...
Reto
They are works of art, Reto and very good quality photographs too. Do you use any particular technique to achieve such a smooth surface? The glue/sinew is so smooth it looks polished. Beautiful.
.. I shape the bow (syiahs, handle etc) with a dremel
see at: http://www.dremeleurope.com
.. then I use different sandpapers up to 600 for the horn up to 1200
... and in the end I coat the entire surface of the bow with glue
Reto
see at: http://www.dremeleurope.com
.. then I use different sandpapers up to 600 for the horn up to 1200
... and in the end I coat the entire surface of the bow with glue
Reto
Reto, a question if I may, what draw length roughly do the dimensions you posted in http://198.170.108.27/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=600 give?
Many thanks
Mike
Many thanks
Mike
These bows look so nice - and now it is a few years since they were sinewed. Has there been any update on them? If not, how did they turn out?
Kviljo
The bows spent some time in China for learning Chinese and now moved back home. In between they got some little brothers and sisters who are not clean yet, but getting dry. Next year they will start crawling, walking, running and the years after shooting...
To be serious, I showed them to Jaap K. and he recommend to wait for tillering and stringing up to the moment I experienced this procedure with "weaker" bows. The core of those 4 have a diameter of 1,5cm, my latest bows most 1,2cm. In the end we are talking about a difference of 40 to 60 pounds in draw weight...
Best regards
Reto
The bows spent some time in China for learning Chinese and now moved back home. In between they got some little brothers and sisters who are not clean yet, but getting dry. Next year they will start crawling, walking, running and the years after shooting...
To be serious, I showed them to Jaap K. and he recommend to wait for tillering and stringing up to the moment I experienced this procedure with "weaker" bows. The core of those 4 have a diameter of 1,5cm, my latest bows most 1,2cm. In the end we are talking about a difference of 40 to 60 pounds in draw weight...
Best regards
Reto
The last days I was quite busy and produced 3 more cores made of maple (supplied by Redhawk, thanks Michael)
here the 2 cores, steamed yesterday on Thursday, 19th, 2009 ...
here the 2 cores, steamed yesterday on Thursday, 19th, 2009 ...
and here the 3rd one 10 days older. The horns are waiting and will be applied today and tomorrow...
Woha! You've been productive. Nice bunch! 8)
1,5cm thick must mean something at least over 100#?
1,5cm thick must mean something at least over 100#?
Kviljo
1,5cm means about 120+ rather 140#.
Jaap told me, he built his tiny bow for flight shooting with a core of 3,5mm wood, horn 4mm and sinew 2,5cm or about 1cm. He also recommended for the total core thickness not to go beyond 8mm (without sinew) otherwise for most modern archers the bows will get to heavy. Of course a physical healthy man will reach after a certain period of time and training 80#, but most of us won't get there anymore due to the modern life style...
Reto
1,5cm means about 120+ rather 140#.
Jaap told me, he built his tiny bow for flight shooting with a core of 3,5mm wood, horn 4mm and sinew 2,5cm or about 1cm. He also recommended for the total core thickness not to go beyond 8mm (without sinew) otherwise for most modern archers the bows will get to heavy. Of course a physical healthy man will reach after a certain period of time and training 80#, but most of us won't get there anymore due to the modern life style...
Reto
Yes, thats it.Esential problem modern archers. Light 60 lb hornbow dont shoot this extraordinery old otoman records, and wood and epoxi archers screams that records are false.
Good work Reto.
Good work Reto.
they dont all scream like that!!!??