scythian hornbow
After having done some interpretations of Scythian hornbows last spring I thought a lot about to make it better and to refine it in performance and design. The result is a bit shorter and smaller bow with a core of mountain-maple instead of mulberry or black locust. The bow has more reflex in the grip-section and in the limbs. The bow is asymmetrically. The upper limb is 5cm longer. The nocks are made of the ends of buffalo-ribbons, I have only to change their naturally grown shape a little bit, I like them.
The string is made of silk, waxed with bees wax.
The wrappings are done with sinew, covered with naturally dyed silk. The green colour is a green earth I got from the Ukraina.
Erhardt Godehardt will do chronos the upcoming weekend. My impression is that this bow is really faster than my first "Scythians".
The bow is 116cm in length, at 25" drawweight is 50lbs.
The cross-section at the midlimbs is 2cm in width and 9mm in thickness, for sure I can?t believe anymore that excavations of Scythian bows with a midlimb-cross-section of 3cm in width and thickness could be a working shootable bow.
Michael
The string is made of silk, waxed with bees wax.
The wrappings are done with sinew, covered with naturally dyed silk. The green colour is a green earth I got from the Ukraina.
Erhardt Godehardt will do chronos the upcoming weekend. My impression is that this bow is really faster than my first "Scythians".
The bow is 116cm in length, at 25" drawweight is 50lbs.
The cross-section at the midlimbs is 2cm in width and 9mm in thickness, for sure I can?t believe anymore that excavations of Scythian bows with a midlimb-cross-section of 3cm in width and thickness could be a working shootable bow.
Michael
Thats a very handsome little bow. Should shoot well too. Keep us informed. -j-
I really like it. Excellent.
Definitely good looking and much closer in shape to a Scythian bow than I have seen for quite some time. Please let us know the results of your tests.
Would there be a chance to see this bow drawn?
I am interested in how the limbs work on this design.
I am interested in how the limbs work on this design.
This bow looks great.
I'm sure you used buffalo ribs for the bow's ends..
(ribbon ist ein Band)
Can't wait to see the full draw picture!
I'm sure you used buffalo ribs for the bow's ends..
(ribbon ist ein Band)
Can't wait to see the full draw picture!
Thank you!
Sbartels, ribbon ist ein Band, sorry. I mean ribs!
For a full draw-pic I?ll ask E. Godehardt to do it. Sorry, but he?ll do the "chronos" next week maybe wednesday not the upcoming weekend.
I?ve some pics done while checking the tiller, the drawlength on the pic is 22". The bow was ordered for the drawlength of 25" with 50lbs, I?m sure it is possible to draw it further. But I don?t know if E. Godehardt wants it.
The 2nd pic posts the grip-section.
Michael
Sbartels, ribbon ist ein Band, sorry. I mean ribs!
For a full draw-pic I?ll ask E. Godehardt to do it. Sorry, but he?ll do the "chronos" next week maybe wednesday not the upcoming weekend.
I?ve some pics done while checking the tiller, the drawlength on the pic is 22". The bow was ordered for the drawlength of 25" with 50lbs, I?m sure it is possible to draw it further. But I don?t know if E. Godehardt wants it.
The 2nd pic posts the grip-section.
Michael
sorry, some confusion with the pics
Click on the first pic and it will be smaller and clearer. This pic shows the grip-section with the hornplates at the sides.
Michael
Click on the first pic and it will be smaller and clearer. This pic shows the grip-section with the hornplates at the sides.
Michael
While you report on the tests, would you be kind to weigh the bow? I mean the mass of bow in grams, not the draw weight which you said was 50lb @ 25in.
Quite a narrow and thin-limbed bow for its draw weight. It must be because the set-back grip. Any particular reason why you chose 116cm for the length?
Adam
Quite a narrow and thin-limbed bow for its draw weight. It must be because the set-back grip. Any particular reason why you chose 116cm for the length?
Adam
Thankyou for the tillering pics.
Every time we test a bow, we measure the physical weight of a bow, for to get the necessary facts how the bow is transferring its energy.
The length of 116cm is an average value we mean to be o.k. for the Scythian bows.
I decided to make narrow limbs cause every historical painting illustrated it. And performance will be better, cause limb-mass is reduced.
Additionally I decided to use horns with a very sharp reflex.
I?m just right now making some different historical designs of bows for a great research about Greek hornbows. The results will be posted within the next 4 weeks. More and more I get the impression that the angles, among the bow, the string and the arrows, affects much more the performance of a bow than we know. When testing bows now we are focusing on these angles too.
Michael
The length of 116cm is an average value we mean to be o.k. for the Scythian bows.
I decided to make narrow limbs cause every historical painting illustrated it. And performance will be better, cause limb-mass is reduced.
Additionally I decided to use horns with a very sharp reflex.
I?m just right now making some different historical designs of bows for a great research about Greek hornbows. The results will be posted within the next 4 weeks. More and more I get the impression that the angles, among the bow, the string and the arrows, affects much more the performance of a bow than we know. When testing bows now we are focusing on these angles too.
Michael
Adam,
as soon as I shall hold the bow in my hands, I will check the weight and the drawweigths for different draw lenths to get the force-draw-curve and the stored energy. Meanwhile I have got drawings of the Scythian bows found 2001 in Arzhan and last year in the Altai mountains (the grave of the "ice mummy"). A paper on these two bows is now ready to be sent to the editor of the book on the excavations. It is in German. The Arzhan bow is much too thick in the limbs to be drawn. It measures 3 cm in thickness. The other bow is "better", the limbs are 1.6-2 cm thick. I did not get much data, I have no data especially on the width of the limbs. The Arzhan bow is approx. 117 cm long over the curvature, the Altai bow is a little bit longer. What is astonishing is that both bows are laminated and consist of three layers of wood, probably glued together, and each layer consists of several pieces of wood (or one stick which is broken into pieces). There is no sign of horn at the inner side. Whether there is sinuw glued to the front is not clear. Both bows were wrapped in leather or raw hide. The Arzhan bow was covered with sheets of gold. Soon I shall get more information.
Best regards,
Erhard Godehardt
as soon as I shall hold the bow in my hands, I will check the weight and the drawweigths for different draw lenths to get the force-draw-curve and the stored energy. Meanwhile I have got drawings of the Scythian bows found 2001 in Arzhan and last year in the Altai mountains (the grave of the "ice mummy"). A paper on these two bows is now ready to be sent to the editor of the book on the excavations. It is in German. The Arzhan bow is much too thick in the limbs to be drawn. It measures 3 cm in thickness. The other bow is "better", the limbs are 1.6-2 cm thick. I did not get much data, I have no data especially on the width of the limbs. The Arzhan bow is approx. 117 cm long over the curvature, the Altai bow is a little bit longer. What is astonishing is that both bows are laminated and consist of three layers of wood, probably glued together, and each layer consists of several pieces of wood (or one stick which is broken into pieces). There is no sign of horn at the inner side. Whether there is sinuw glued to the front is not clear. Both bows were wrapped in leather or raw hide. The Arzhan bow was covered with sheets of gold. Soon I shall get more information.
Best regards,
Erhard Godehardt
Erhard:
Thanks for the information on the two bows. Were there any arrows found with the bows? I wonder how you arrived at the 25" draw length for the bow.
The two bow may indeed be grave goods. If sinew was not found, only leather and hide, then there was none to begin with. As the hide, sinew would most likely survive too.
I am looking forward to see the chrono results and the mass measurement.
Adam
Thanks for the information on the two bows. Were there any arrows found with the bows? I wonder how you arrived at the 25" draw length for the bow.
The two bow may indeed be grave goods. If sinew was not found, only leather and hide, then there was none to begin with. As the hide, sinew would most likely survive too.
I am looking forward to see the chrono results and the mass measurement.
Adam
Adam,
the gorytos from the Arzhan tomb seems to have been made for arrows of 68cm in length (we got a drawing of that gorytos with a scale drawn in), the arrows from that tomb mostly are broken, so that we cannot guess the lengths directly from them. For the other, very recently discovered tomb, the situation is slightly better. There are complete arrows which are of different lengths, between 70cm and 80cm long.
A draw length of 60-62cm is very comfortable for me now. I changed my stance from a compound archer standing straight and upright to a stance of - maybe - a hunter with slightly bent legs and spine and with my head coming a little bit to the left side. As compound archer, I draw the arrow hand (fist) under my right ear and used a release. Now, I draw the hand so that the index finger is on the middle of my lips. This explains the draw length.
Best regards,
the gorytos from the Arzhan tomb seems to have been made for arrows of 68cm in length (we got a drawing of that gorytos with a scale drawn in), the arrows from that tomb mostly are broken, so that we cannot guess the lengths directly from them. For the other, very recently discovered tomb, the situation is slightly better. There are complete arrows which are of different lengths, between 70cm and 80cm long.
A draw length of 60-62cm is very comfortable for me now. I changed my stance from a compound archer standing straight and upright to a stance of - maybe - a hunter with slightly bent legs and spine and with my head coming a little bit to the left side. As compound archer, I draw the arrow hand (fist) under my right ear and used a release. Now, I draw the hand so that the index finger is on the middle of my lips. This explains the draw length.
Best regards,
Is there any new evidence on Scythian bows? Hermann Parzinger found one in Kurin- Ogol (sp?), but everything I could find at the exhibition, in the catalogue etc. just says it was a functional composite bow about 120cm long.
There also was reference in the exhibition to an older fragment made up of "layers of wood wrapped in animal skin". No mention of horn or sinew.
I'm writing a review about the exhibition (currently in Berlin "Im Zeichen des Goldenen Greifen", soon in Munich and next year in Hamburg) and would be grateful about some additional information!
There also was reference in the exhibition to an older fragment made up of "layers of wood wrapped in animal skin". No mention of horn or sinew.
I'm writing a review about the exhibition (currently in Berlin "Im Zeichen des Goldenen Greifen", soon in Munich and next year in Hamburg) and would be grateful about some additional information!
The bow found in Olon Kurin Gol is described as a "bow for daily use". It consists of several laminated stripes of wood (each approx. 3-4 mm thick). It is wrapped in animal skin. It is non-symmetric. Probably, we (redhawk and I) can examine this bow within the next six or seven months (we have got at least the invitation by Prof. Parzinger an Prof. Molodin to do this). Then we can tell more about it. Especially, we have been encouraged by them to make a reproduction of this bow.
The other bow which you mentioned is that found in Arzhan (or Arzan). It is similar in construction to that from Olon Kurin Gol. However, the three wooden sticks used for the laminated limbs are 10 mm thick (each one!!!), and the grip is reinforced by two additional strips of the same thickness. With a total length shorter than 120 cm, this bow could not be drawn to a length of 55-60 cm. This lets us believe that this bow was not intended to be used, it was a gift for the next world only. Both bows were wrapped in animal skins, and in both bows, there were no signs of horn. At the moment, we do not know the kind of wood used for the bows. It might be that - like with Scandinavian bows - the bowyers used "tough" wood like birch for the outer layers and wood resisting better against pressure for the inner layers, for example juniper. These two bows are the only complete pieces found until now.
We hope to be able to tell you more at the end of spring 2008. We are rather excited to be able to create a bow as a rather close replication of an existing bow from a grave.
Best regards,
Erhard
The other bow which you mentioned is that found in Arzhan (or Arzan). It is similar in construction to that from Olon Kurin Gol. However, the three wooden sticks used for the laminated limbs are 10 mm thick (each one!!!), and the grip is reinforced by two additional strips of the same thickness. With a total length shorter than 120 cm, this bow could not be drawn to a length of 55-60 cm. This lets us believe that this bow was not intended to be used, it was a gift for the next world only. Both bows were wrapped in animal skins, and in both bows, there were no signs of horn. At the moment, we do not know the kind of wood used for the bows. It might be that - like with Scandinavian bows - the bowyers used "tough" wood like birch for the outer layers and wood resisting better against pressure for the inner layers, for example juniper. These two bows are the only complete pieces found until now.
We hope to be able to tell you more at the end of spring 2008. We are rather excited to be able to create a bow as a rather close replication of an existing bow from a grave.
Best regards,
Erhard
Thank you for your answer. Of course, examining the bow will take time. Congratulations on the job! You two surely are perfect for it!
>3 laminates 10mm, each.
>Both bows were wrapped in animal skins
Any change they were bundle bows?
No wood bends with 30 thickness as short bow.
>bow was not intended to be used
That is allways possible.
>Both bows were wrapped in animal skins
Any change they were bundle bows?
No wood bends with 30 thickness as short bow.
>bow was not intended to be used
That is allways possible.
but that would mean a lot of friction, wouldn't it?
Have bundle bows ever been used (except in crossbows) widely?
Have bundle bows ever been used (except in crossbows) widely?
OK, now after we have examined the bow found in the Scythian grave on the Olon Kurin Gol, redhawk made some replicas. This bow was also laminated, but of two strips of wood. The strips were not very thick and glued together (of course). After testing the bow in our machine (to get the force-draw-curves when drawing and when releasing), we found that it was rather weak (approx. 20 lbs at 22 inches). But it did not break at all! We now reinforced it with sinew and are waiting until it will be thoroughly dry. Then you will hear more and also see some pictures.
Best regards, Erhard
Best regards, Erhard
At some point I promised someone that I'd post my field drawings of the Yanghai Scythian-type bows. Now you can get them here:
http://www.atarn.org/chinese/Yanghai/yanghai.htm
http://www.atarn.org/chinese/Yanghai/yanghai.htm