new pool ball ring

Another two pics.

Tomorow I will see how it works.

That's a very neat job.

Ginni,
That is a good looking ring and seems well made for your thumb. Getting the proportions right is very important.

Try it out on a light bow first. Then you will be able to see any negative effects. A slower moving arrow is easy to follow in flight and you will be able to see if there are any disturbances. Just short drawing a heavy bow does not have the same effect. The shorter draw makes the arrow appear stiffer to the bow and causes other unexpected effects.

Good luck.

Thanks Bede!

Today I have shot at 150 meters, to a small target bhutanese like (easy to wheel into a car).

The ring is going very well, I have shot a lot without any pain.
After two hours and 80-90 shots probably, I start to feel little tired, and I have had few bad shots untill I have go home.

I had the chance to see how the arrows are flying at that distance.

Anyway, this is a big improvement to my techinque, the previous copper ring was bad, now I know that. And with the sugakji ring that I have, although a good one, I just don't like how work, I feel like I not have enough control of the arrow end.

Beautiful job ginni!

Did you try different thickness in the ring and see how it affects your shots?

I have a one that is was made from three layers of leather, one very thick and hard and two very soft.
The first was boiled for more hardness, and after all that I coated with some epoxi.
So the ring was very comfortable and the part that cover the thumb pad was thick, 6-7 mm.
The ring was not working good with the hwarang bow, I cannot take a firm lock with the thumb and after release the string often snatch my index tip.
I had the sensation that I cannot push the thumb tip on the middle finger second phalanx with enough strebght.

The new ring work very well, after a lot of shooting, even when I was tired the string have never snatch my index.


So I think a thin ring work better.

Another thing, the little groove near to the ring's hole, where the thumb is flexing, is very very useful, is helping the thumb to flex free and because the string touch the skin in that point, I have a better control.

Thank you all!

Ginni,

I'm new here and can't seem to see the pics of your thumbring. Can't find anything to click on either. Any hints anyone?

I posted a pool ball build along on the Leatherwall.

Hope to see yours!

J.

They have been removed.

Jason,

I have removed the pics, but you can see it on this link:

http://s183.photobucket.com/albums/x123/cuadrant/

But now the ring is broken... :cry:

http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/lekigrup/ ... 1721581474
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/lekigrup/ ... 7426614162

I want make another one from cow horn.

Ginni,

I've made several and my favorite so far is from a purple #4 pool ball. Purple! and more importantly, comfortable. You can see my whole ring building process on the 'Trad Bow' site called the 'Leaterwall'. Once there do a search for 'poolball thumbring' I might have listed it under 'pool ball thumbring'. Can't remember.

I made one from horn and it was a beautiful black. After I sanded down to fine steel wool, I used 'Brasso Brass Polish' to give it a glass like finish. Didn't know how well the Brasso would work on horn, but it was great.

I noticed that one had a lip on it to help separate the string from your thumb. How did that work for you? Do you recomend it? I haven't tried that yet.

Thanks for the great thread!

J.

New here, so I'm not sure if this pic will post. If it does I'll post others of it as I built it.

J.


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It worked! Here's some more of the process...



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For me, I find that getting that leather tab real smooth, almost paper thin under the thumb pad, then keeping it real thick for protection from the string is very important. Without that thick leather tab between my thumb and string, I develop a cyst of sorts on the tendon that runs on the inside of my thumb. This is why I asked about that 'lip' that you had incorporated into yours and if it offered any extra protection from the string?

The other ring is of purple heart wood (aka amaranth). I've made several with this wood and a few have broken, but if you get the wood grain perpendicular to the bowstring, it is stronger. The poolball ring looks blue in the pics but is actually purple.

Oh yeh. I know this may sound lame, but I just can't help myself!

'THUMBS UP FOR THUMBRINGS!!!'

J.

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The blue ring is very like some Turkish rings I own. If you are getting pressure at the base of the ring on your thumb, then the thumb is turning too far around the string. By that I mean you are probably turning you wrist in the horizontal plane away from your face. This causes the string to slide up against the tendons on the underside of the proximal phalanx of the thumb.

THANKS Bede!

I know exactly what you're talking about (I think). Your advice just made me look at my wrist at full draw. Even when my wrist is as relaxed as possible, the force of the string pulls my hand toward my ulna/little finger side, so that my wrist is bent below my little finger, but straight at my thumb/radial bone. Is this a 'normal' position?

If I understand you correctly, I should just keep my wrist as relaxed as possible to prevent added flexion toward my little finger side, right?

Thanks again!

J.

Jason,

I have made some rings, from pool ball, cooper and thick leather and this last one work best by far.

It was very thin, with a groove near to the hole and the part that cover the thumb pad is short, covering 2/3 from the pad.
So the point of the thumb can be pushed into the middle finger with much pressure and easy to manage.

I shot with this thumbring series at 18 arrows few hours and I have not any pain or pinch.

The groove is very useful, the previous ring have pinch my thumb on the tendon from interior part of the second phalanx.

The ring is very thin, but this has a price, now is broken... I will make another from horn soon, hope to succeed to make a similar one.

Ginni,

Thanks for the information on the lip. I think I'll try making one like that myself. A friend of mine gave me a block of 'high strength' plastic that has some use in machining metal. I also have some clear acrylic like material, but don't know if it will be strong enough. Probably use the 'high strength stuff'.

I've never considered using my middle finger to prevent the thumb angle from being too acute. Bede had suggested that maybe I was curling my thumb around the string too much and that was causing the excessive string contact between my second phalax and the string. I'll try keeping my thumb in place with contact between the end of the thumb and side of the middle finger.

Thanks for the great ideas! What a great website! :D

Jason

Jason,
There should be some tension in the wrist, but not enough to turn it. The degree of turning depends on the thumb position on the middle finger.

With a strongly flexed thumb, where the tip of the thumb presses against the side of the middle section of the middle finger, the hand is only turned enough to lightly touch the nock of the arrow with the side of the index finger while keeping the distal section of the thumb perpendicular to the plane of the string.

Using a ring with a long tip where the ring face presses against the side of the middle section of the middle finger during the draw, the wrist is turned more to turn the surface of the ring to the same angle to the plane of the string.

The basic idea is to direct the force of the string through the lip of the ring onto pad of the distal section of the thumb. Grooves on old rings were designed to accurately locate the string on the surface of the ring, not to act as notches to hold the ring in place. Sometimes in photographs they look quite deep, but usually they are shallow when you handle them. Their purpose meant they were not always needed. With training and practice, most archers can put the string where they need to on the lip of the ring. As a result, few rings had these grooves.

Here some korean rings with groove

I cannot find an old post with a translation from saracen archery, I dont remember who was the owner.
I atach the files here, hope I will not offend nobody.

After I had some troubles with my shooting style, I found it very helpful.

But the bigest help has come from this forum, the guys here are wise and very helping, allways ready to get a good advice.

Thank you all again!

Ginni,

THANKS for posting those two articles! I've downloaded them and will make hard copies to read over tomorrow mornings coffee. I'm looking forward to this greatly! I wish I had known about this website two years ago, as I'd be twice the archer I am today!

I will make one of those Korean rings with the 'lip' that helps separate the string from the thumb. I'll use your photos as models.


Bede,

THANKS for your excellent advice about wrist tension too! I think the 'grooves' that ginni and I are talking about are actually the 'lip' that partically encircles the thumb, with the opening where the string is closest to the thumb (see the pics of Ginni's Korean rings). I think the 'groove' you mentioned is a shallow indent that the string can nestle in, as you mentioned, simply to help with string location. Bit of a language faux pas.

THANKS again guys!

J.

Jason,
I was aware of both the types you mention and two others. There are Shang and Spring and Autumn period rings with deep grooves to hold the string and there are metal rings like the Fustat ring with an indentation at the base of the lip and a tear-drop shaped bump on the surface of the lip. Both of these types use the groove as a single point of location for the string. It cannot sit anywhere else.

The Korean rings with the indentation and the cut-away at the base of the ring are similar to rings described in Ming Dynasty works. There, rings with two little legs are described. These face forward at the base of the lip and prevent the string from sliding back to the thumb itself.

When designs last as long as these have, there often are new ways to make use of the features of the equipment. Sometimes you solve one problem and gain a whole new advantage you were not anticipating.

'When designs last as long as these have, there often are new ways to make use of the features of the equipment. Sometimes you solve one problem and gain a whole new advantage you were not anticipating. '

Very true! I may have a hypothesis, but until I do the experiment (make one of these rings and shoot it), I'll never really know the results!

Thanks again!

J.

Jason

I made a couple of this type of rings from poolballs. The shield is slightly different more tear dropped, But so far non have broke. I am only sasying this becouse that high density plastic (901) I sent you is very difficult to work with hand tools.

Matt

Bede offers very good advice. Except for one sentence: "direct the force of the string through the lip of the ring onto pad of the distal section of the thumb". I do not agree with that. If the pressure is only on the pad of thumb, the ring is too loose. The pressure should be on the knuckle too.

I also find with my short and inflexible thumb, I can not flex it too much while pressing into the middle finger. This turned out to be an advantage, because then my release becomes faster and I have no trouble to hold the string on the edge of ring. I now think the thumb should not be flexed too much for that reason, and the index finger should cver only the tip of thumb, with most of the thumb nail visible.

Every hand is a little different, so experimentation is in order.

Adam

Adam.
I have changed my opinion of thumb ring use after three years of experimenting with thin metal rings. The large number of late cast metal thumb rings has always been a puzzle. There were several different sorts which had different techniques (a supposition).

Since they have little in the way of locating the string, I wondered how they were meant to used. Like many other thumb ring users, I started to practise by hooking the string with the inner edge of the ring. This tends to put the pressure through the back and sides of the ring. This is easy to do if you have a ring slightly too long for your thumb. It was easy and natural, but it made most of the descriptions of shooting hard to understand.

I looked at the shapes of horn and ivory rings and decided that there was a component in their designs to enable the string to be located somewhat away from the base of the lip. Once you start thinking that way, your view of the dynamics of how the ring works changes. The Middle Eastern rings are normally thicker at the base of the lip. I saw an advantage in this when the string was pushing against the lip, but not when it was pulling on it. Korean rings by contrast are generally thinner at the base of the lip and thicker towards the tip.

However, to echo something Stephen often writes, there is no perfect and singular technique. Everyone is built slightly differently and all the old writers were aware of the individual body shapes of archers.

ginni wrote:

Here some korean rings with groove

The one on the left is date wood; the middle is horn; the one on the right is from a pool ball. I like using the date ring, but it is a bit bulky.


T

Yes, a ring thick at the base of lip with a short, sloping lip. This is what I like the most. Then the string sits on the "ledge" or on the "extended" or "swollen" edge of ring. I was worried you advise the string to sit on the lip itself which can cause all kinds of trouble. Also the mechanics of a loose ring makes it cut into the thumb knuckles at the back side of thumb. In any case the ring must be tight around the thumb joint, regardless of the hole type - round or oval.

Adam

I wish we could draw on this the internet or there was a standardized way of identifying thumbring parts as I often feel a bit confused about what part of the ring people are talking about. Suppose I could always post a picture...

Adam/Bede,

When you refer to the 'lip' are you talking about the ring that goes around the second phalange, with the opening at the meeting point between the string and thumb? or are you refering to the tear drop shaped 'sheild' that goes over the thumb pad.

I tend to think of the large teardrop shaped section that the thum pad rests in as the 'shield' and the 'lip' as going around the 2nd phalange with an opening at the contact point with the string. Not all rings have a 'lip' as I understand the term.

Am I on the same page as you guys/ or am I misunderstanding the thumbring anatomy?



Matt,

I'll try attacking that block of plastic you gave me with my Dremmel tool and see if I can get through that. Later though. Right now I'm building a bow!

J.

I'm sorry I didn't tell you abt this forum. Looks like you found the good guys to talk to. Maybe we can collaborate on some of these techniques tomorrow at your place. I have the same trouble with picking up stuff from the internet.

Hi Bede, Hi Adam.

Jason,
When I say lip, I mean the projecting tab that covers the pad of the thumb. If you look at my article http://www.atarn.org/chinese/thumbrings ... _rings.htm
You can see a diagram of a thumb ring with a standard way of referring to the shape.

There are some difficulties with the names of the parts of thumb rings in Arabic and Turkish. It looks like we are doing no better in English.

Adam,
I would really like to continue this discussion in person where we can demonstrate what we mean rather than approximate with words. I have misunderstood what you meant before when we were talking about bows stacking. You had a much higher standard than me. When I shoot your bows they are as smooth as silk to draw yet you can see some unevenness in the build up of draw weight. That is the feel of the bowyer for his craft.

In my case with thumb rings, I have been making them for thirty years. Through luck, many that I have collected fit me so that I have been able to shoot with original rings as well. I can bend my thumb so that the angle between the proximal and distal phalanges is approaching 90 degrees. My thumbs are short too, but I spent months exercising them to stretch the tendons. However, they are very personal things. One person's way of using them might not suit another.

Bede, I find the only reliable way to tell if a bow stacks is by looking at the force-draw curve. Stacking begins at the onset of the upturn in the curve. A strong bowyer who can, say, draw an 80lb bow will not feel any stacking drawing a 50-60lb bow, even if the bow is drawn beyond that point on the curve. An archer who draws only 45-50lb bow would feel it. According to Turkish sources, and I found it to be true, the best performing bows should be drawn about 1-2in beyound the stacking point.

I include a picture of rings I now use to illustrate the "step" formed by the ledge and the lip's slope. Note how extreme it can be in the white ring (roughly cut from a piece of LDPE). The silver ring (beautiful work by Murat) is very similar mechanically with a big ledge and the short lip. The decorative stone is probably never touched by the string on release. These type rings were used in Turkey and the Middle East with some variations.

Adam

Adam,
Your description is very clear and obviously correct. As an archer, there is a point which the experience of the increase in draw weight becomes obvious. This subjective experience was what I was thinking of and that is what caused my confusion. When I shoot either of your bows that I have, I feel almost a stop occurring when the ears approach 90 degrees to the string. For something like the snatched release, this is a great advantage. With a siper, drawing until the point of the arrows is opposite the bow and then snatching it back to the centre of siper's trough is effective. However, getting the position of the point of the arrow in the right place just before release needs all the help the archer can get.

Adam,

If that silver one that Murat made is anything like the Saluki Bow Co. ring I shot recently, the string fits between the decorative stone and the 'step', completely isolateing it from the thumb. It completely protectted my thumb, but I definitely lost some 'feel' for the string tension on the draw and release. I could probably get used to it though if my old thumb tendon injury ever comes back. Tougher to handle on a bouncing horse though...

Thanks for your pics!

J.

Jason, the string sits on the edge of ring, or on the "step" itself, in contact with the flesh. It is the case with all these rings.

Adam

Today I have made another two rings, one from a pool ball and other from cow horn.


When I have tested the rings, the horn one have broken. :(