Turkish Sipers

The thing that stops the arrow jumping out of the trough is your technique. It is essential that you have a smooth release without any pressure from your index finger on the side of the nock. The type of thumb ring may also have some effect. The short-lipped deep rings that characterise later Turkish archery are the best ones from my experience. The string has less deflection on release.

One thing that I learned from observation and practice was that you can put the tip of the arrow on any part of the curve of the trough of the siper. It is important that you also concentrate of lining up the front-to-back axis of the siper with the direction of the arrow. Even with a perfect alignment, the arrow travels slightly transversely, judging by the wear on old sipers with their leather covers still in place.

Every time this topic comes up, I feel I have to issue a health warning. This things are dangerous and you must treat them with extreme care.
:shock:

S

I'm actually making a 'siper' that will act like one but will have two tabla, one horizontally and one vertically to protect the bow and bow hand.
I'm fairly confident that I'll be sternly advised by fellow archers at the grounds as well.

I might have some pictures of my progress soon enough

Mike

Perhaps it would be better to start off with the type siper called a navak-i qabza. This is bound to the grip of the bow and simply a trough with an extension with which to tie it to the bow.

I would also start off by shooting full-length arrows through the siper until you have mastered the technique.

No matter what technological fix you try, you cannot make an overdraw safe. An arrow hitting a guard on the hand or the bow will probably fragment and it is just in front on your face. People using hi-tech overdraws on modern flight bows have had serious accidents where arrows have penetrated the arm of the archer when they were drawn too far.

It is always good to have an observer while you shoot who knows what should happen and can tell you about a problem before it happens. However, ultimately you are responsible for making the decision to shoot. Stephen is right: all forms of overdraw are inherently dangerous to the practitioner. Never take them for granted.

I've finished shaping the trough. Depth 7 mm, Length 150 mm, Width 45mm. There's slight curve so the arrow never sits flat. I Should finish Siper some point in the week. Then I'm going to look for a flight archer to teach me how to safely use it.


Mike

The ends of the trough should be rounded. Usually the base or underside is flat with the sides curving up from it.

Nice work Mike! That cow horn? Will you do the leatherwork to attach it to your hand/bow?

J.

Siper, Eshik and tabla. Bearing in mind its not glued together yet. Still have to make leather handle (tasma) and shape the bottom of the Eshik

The trough is from an offcut of Buffalo horn.

Mike

Very nice work, Mike.

Thankyou Orda, I must say I am pleased as to how well the horn shines up.

Bede, roughly how high off the bow hand should the siper sit? Also could you please explain what is meant when it says that the siper should incline to the left (I think that applies for right handed archers)?

Thanks

Mike

The head (front) of the siper should be close to the knuckle of the thumb. There should be as little height at the front end.

Looking down on a right handed archer's siper, the groove should point slightly to the left. The degree of deviation from a straight line depends on hand shape and grasp.

I've been busy working on these parts that will make up the siper. I've not actually glued the leather glove to the groove yet, I want to wait till I meet someone in person who knows their stuff, so they can help me fit it properly. I hope that there is someone reasonably local in the S.A.A. who can help me.

I'll be the first to admit that my work has the halmarks of someone who has never seen a real siper first hand (slightly wrong proportions etc) and my workmanship could have been much better in the final assembly, however I hope that it will be usable in future. (The distance between the groove and my thumb knuckle isn't as large as it seems, it is only about 2 and a bit cm but I had to balance it onmy hand to take a photo).

I totally understand the warnings that Stephen and Bede give about overdraws, I am quite scared myself by all the possible ways that one could hurt oneself whilst using it, as such I'm locking it safely away as so I'm not tempted in a more careless mood.

Mike

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I personally never tried to use one of them but what you have made seems much too BIG bulky thing I must say. The ones I saw in the museums here are smaller and only may reach to the wrist. As many friends warned before I do not want you to be the first there to cause any nasty happenings neither to yourself nor the dear people around you.
What is more the term ?siper? in Turkish may mean something like shield, protection, guard, fender, plate, protected place, faceplate, life guard, parapet etc. And nothing really to do with the technique. So safety comes first.
e

I realise that now I've tried to see how I would attatch and use it. Still the experience counts.

Mike

I will see if I can put in some pictures of mine. It is a copy of one in the Grayson Collection with some modifications for my hand.

I thought I'd share an image of my second (as yet unfinished) attempt at the Turkish overdraw.

Does anyone have any detailed information on a tubular overdraw? I think that a fully enclosed overdraw has the potential for being much safer than the type I am constructing now.

Regards

Tubular overdraws have been used in modern flight archery for decades. However, they have their own problems.

• They usually have increased friction compared to a siper.
  They can damage arrows.
  They can induce a false sense of security.

That doesn't mean you should not try one, but I just think that any overdraw should be used with caution. They are all inherently more dangerous than just shooting an arrow.

The navak-i qabze is probably the easiest and safest for of siper to use. This is the one that you tie onto the grip. Like all sipers, you need to make sure that the string does not come far enough forward to hit the rear of it when you release.

When using a navak-i qabze, which method of follow through is best? I turn the bow away from myself with the pressure from the lower fingers and the pad between my thumb and forefinger, would this flip the arrow leaving the siper?

Is the siper glued to a leather assembly, which is then tied to the bow, or is the siper tied directly?

Thanks

The navak-e qabze is provided with a vertical tab that is tied to the bow. I think it should be lined with leather though I do not know if there is textual evidence. I made mine out of copper. They were usually metal.

When using the siper or the majra, it is unwise to use any follow through. If you mistime your follow though and start it early, you can have unfortunate effects on the flight of the arrow. In general, the steady release followed by a few seconds of stillness after the release is best.

I have tried the follow throughs recommended in Arab Archery, but saw no improvement in shooting, though the spectators liked the show.

Bede,
I'd be very grateful if you could answer a few more questions based on the photos below. I've sanded and t-cut the horn groove now, and it positively sparkles. In length it is 6" long, 1" wide at the bow end, 1.5" long at the string end and just less than 0.5" deep. I've not glued it to any leather as of yet.
Is the groove in the correct position relative to the bow for a navak-i-qazbe?
Will the extra distance between the arrow and bow grip effect the arrow flight adversely? If so how should I go about closing the gap?
I don't intend to draw the arrow any further back than the base of my wrist (and not even that before I've got some practice with long arrows).

Thankyou for all your help

Mike

Here's a section from a brief paper I did on sipers for a project.

The trough was made from horn or ivory. The ivory was sometimes dyed various colors. A siper measured by Klopsteg was 4 ?? long by 1? ? 1-1/16? wide. The middle of the groove was about 5/32? higher than the ends, curving in an approximately circular arc of about 18?. The trough was lined with very thin Moroccan leather, glued in with fish glue.
The shield (tabla) was an oval plate measuring 3 ?? x 5?. It was made of tortoise shell or sheet metal (brass, copper or silver). Some were covered with lizard skin. Another brass plate had parchment with Persian verses covered with transparent horn. One had edges decorated with silver and silk braid.

The wooden support (esbik) was made from linden or maple unless it was carved out of the same block as the trough. The trough was glued to the wooden based. Fish glue was used. This assembly was then glued with a slight inclination to the left to a leather strap that fits the hand.

The strap (tasma) was made from the best Moroccan leather and carefully fitted to the wearer?s hand. One was dyed crimson and lined with water silk. The part below the head of the siper was long and the place where the strap fastened was cut away. It was buckled at the wrist.

Here's a section from a brief paper I did on sipers for a project.

The trough was made from horn or ivory. The ivory was sometimes dyed various colors. A siper measured by Klopsteg was 4 ?? long by 1? ? 1-1/16? wide. The middle of the groove was about 5/32? higher than the ends, curving in an approximately circular arc of about 18?. The trough was lined with very thin Moroccan leather, glued in with fish glue.
The shield (tabla) was an oval plate measuring 3 ?? x 5?. It was made of tortoise shell or sheet metal (brass, copper or silver). Some were covered with lizard skin. Another brass plate had parchment with Persian verses covered with transparent horn. One had edges decorated with silver and silk braid.

The wooden support (esbik) was made from linden or maple unless it was carved out of the same block as the trough. The trough was glued to the wooden based. Fish glue was used. This assembly was then glued with a slight inclination to the left to a leather strap that fits the hand.

The strap (tasma) was made from the best Moroccan leather and carefully fitted to the wearer?s hand. One was dyed crimson and lined with water silk. The part below the head of the siper was long and the place where the strap fastened was cut away. It was buckled at the wrist.

Dave,
Thankyou for your information.
At the moment I am trying to get my head round the basic shooting aspects of a navak-i-qabze, which is a groove tied to the bow, rather than the hand. (Is there a text on the navak-i-qabze out there at the moment? Or in the S.A.A Journals?)
At the moment I am specifically concerned with the problem of positioning my groove. Moving the groove backwards increases the risk of shooting through the bow, but keeping it forwards also moves the arrow out of its usual path (as seen in the photos). I wonder if a compromise is reached, or if the groove shape is different entirely (for example, with one flat side). If you have any experience with this I'd be grateful if you could share it with me.

Regards

Mike Hardman

Your project sounds interesting but quite scary.

I suppose the spine and shape of the arrow is critical.
Slow motion pictures show the arrow's paradox, the arrow bending sideways as you can not see it.
Is the barreled shaft used in flight archery, better for that reason and/or for a matter of arrow mass ?
Would a slightly higher spine (stiffer than fitted to the draw weight) be safer as it would project the arrow "outside" the bow, slightly to the left as you are left handed ?

M Hardman wrote:

Dave,
Thankyou for your information.
At the moment I am trying to get my head round the basic shooting aspects of a navak-i-qabze, which is a groove tied to the bow, rather than the hand. (Is there a text on the navak-i-qabze out there at the moment? Or in the S.A.A Journals?)

I have no experience with this version of an overdraw device. I haven't seem any references to it in the texts at my disposal either. Possibly Bede can tell us where he got the info?

Dave,
You posted an image of your replica siper, have you used it? If you have could you tell me by how much roughly the path of the arrow past the grip is different to using a long arrow?
Have you ever tried any of the overdraws featured in Saracen or Arab Archery?

Thankyou very much for you help.

Mike

Mike,

I have no experience with other Arab/Saracen overdraw devices.

I'm still on a learning curve with the siper. I don't get much chance to use it since I have to anticipate a long shot (300 -500 yards) being possible since I am shooting a replica turkish flight arrow as well. I live in western Washington ... lots of forest and little long clear areas when shooting arrows is allowed.

When I tried the flight arrow, siper, thumb ring, and 45# Korean model 25 bow combination out last Fall, I learned:

* the tabla is too long for the Model 25 bow when fully extended. Even though there is clearance when the bow is at rest, when shot, the bow recoils past the rest point at hits the tabla. I cut the serving on my string. Fortunately the string held!

* the nock point I use for shooting regular length arrows doesn't work with this combination of gear. The flight arrow was launched much higher than I expected. The arrow did not go smoothly across the top of the trough's curve. The contact point of the arrow seemed to move to the rear of the trough as the arrow approached the trough.

I probably should repeat the caution that these things are dangerous!

Mike,
The siper in the navak-i qabze should be inclined a little more towards the centre line of the bow (i.e. the tail should be pointing a little more to the right in your picture).

If you are using a Mediterranean release, the arrow will move across the groove more than with a thumb ring. I also think you will lose your lower hen feather.

Now when I shoot with a siper, I incline the tail of the groove down a bit so that the front part of the groove is almost parallel to the arrow shaft. This makes it easier for the feathers not to catch on the edges of the groove.

The reason for the siper being inclined to the left in Klopsteg is that the wrist is turned to the left when drawing the bow and this puts the siper in line with the arrow. This assumes a right handed archer using a thumb ring.

The reason for the leather lining in sipers is probably to prevent wear and tear on the underlying groove. The lining was easy to remove (so easy that it was used as an emergency bandage).

When using the navak-i qabze ith long arrows for practice, not which is the best angle for minimum drag on the arrow. This varies between bows and archers.

The navak-i qabze in in a JSA-A article by Edward McEwen translating part of the Hidayat ar-Rami.

I have shot with an ordinary siper, a navak-i qabze, a majra and an enclosed majra (shah majra). All are dangerous to the user and spectators unless used with great concentration. You must always be aware where the point of the arrow is sitting and where it is going to go next. If in doubt, slowly let the bow down. Don't take any chances.

Thankyou for checking that over Bede.
I attatched the groove to the bow using a wire-leather framework (not especially traditional), and tried it with long arrows, but the person watching saw that the arrow nearly jumped from the groove on each shot, and rubbed on the righthand side wall. I found rub marks there later myself. If I feel lucky next time I have a chance to shoot I may try realigning the groove and shooting long arrows.
I've looked over all the literature I can find about enclosed overdraws, but the danger of string rubbing, dart slipping, guide snapping, and shooting oneself (besides the fact I am not even sure how I would use the shah majra correctly) has persuaded me of two things, that Kani was right when he pondered that a shoot-through bow would be more convenient, and that overdraws carry too much risk for an amateur like myself to attempt alone.
On the basis that my regular shooting isn't yet up to standard, I'll abstain from the tools of the master archers.

Regards

Mike,
I put some pictures on the thread about Turkish arrows. One was the siper on the wrist. I will try to do some more pictures in the next two weeks. We are having humid an rainy weather: not the best for bows.

Bede,
I see that it is much smaller again than my construction, although I seem to be getting the hang of shaping, perhaps third time lucky.
I still have some difficulty getting my head round how the arrow is projected round the bow from a siper, and how the path of the arrow is affected. I can't recall Klopsteg mentioning the archers paradox along with sipers, perhaps someone else has made observations about this?

Regards

Short of using high speed photography, I do not know of any precise studies that could be done of the archer's paradox and arrows shot from a siper. Watching the arrows' later flight and relating the position of the arrow in the target, I think that the archer's paradox does not have much effect. I am sure the arrow buckles slightly, but the flight is usually in a straight line related to its position in the trough of the siper.

In shooting I have noticed a slight downward pressure on the siper when releasing the arrow. It is easier to monitor the sideways pressure on the nock by the index finger because the arrow will slide up the inside side of the trough if too much contact is made.

I'm pulling this old thread up again. Me and a friend are interested in the "navak-i qabza" - the siper that is tied to the bow. It seems somewhat easier to handle as an overdraw device, compared to the turkish siper.

But there does not seem to be much documentation on this device. We've read through the JSAA article, but there is not much constructional data to hold on to.

Maybe someone knows of other sources of information on the "navak-i qabza"?

I made one several years ago out of copper. I am thinking of lining it with leather because it always transmitted more shock to the hand than the Turkish style. Judging from the early date of the Hidayat ar-Rami and the Persian name, I have have some hope that the new manuscripts that Dr Khorasani has found may have more information. So far, we have found some oblique references to sipers (sipar in Persian) and the tabla (the protective plate on a Turkish siper) in the manuscripts translated.

My personal experience suggests that the wrist guide is a harsher tool to use than the Turkish style. It must have a channel that is higher in the middle than the ends. The hawk's claw grip must be used and be very precise. Positioning of the guide on the bow is another job requiring care. Since it is tied onto the bow with an upright tab, its angle can change after a few shots and this requires the archer to pay careful attention to the angle it has to the bow and the path of the arrow.

I did use it once at the flight shooting tournament, but I was not happy with its performance. Maybe the changes will improve it.

I had one of these made, to some specifications that I guessed (since I don't have industrial metal working capabilities). Basically, I bought some steel tubing of diameter slightly greater than the diameter of my largest arrows (23/64 th of an inch ~0.92 cm), and had someone rout a channel through the tube, cutting slighty more from one side to allow bolts to be loaded.

Unfortunately, although I gave several tubes to be worked, only one came back. There was a slight bend that I only noticed later in it too. Such are the difficulties of working tubes of metal.

I did use it a few times, with a very very short draw, but I wasn't happy that it wouldn't cut my bowstring (since a bowstring doesn't follow a straight line), even after smoothing the metal corners of the slot in the tube.

Experiment away, but remember that unless you reduce the friction of arrow/bowstring against the tube significantly, all you are doing is increasing the risk of injury without increasing your bow's performance.

Mike,
With the design I used, there is no contact between the string and the guide. Here is McEwen's translation.

As for the grip guide it is one that one should make small from thin and light copper (reading az mis tunuk with B.M. Or. 9838. (I. O. Eth? 2768 reads az pas tunuk) measuring ten fingers long and two fingers wide.
The left side of the guide which will be contiguous with the grip one should make thin and light with a width of one and a half fingers and a length of two fingers. The spur (para) of the guide he binds to the grip with a thin cord or strong rawhide thong (rīsmān bārīk wa yā siram mukam (OR 9838 reads: strong leather charm mukam) in such a way that it sits evenly above the fist. Let him join the spur with the side of the guide that the guide come in six fingers within the bow and a small part of the fist section of the aforesaid guide is outside so that it should not injure the fist.

From this I did not envisage a tube with a slot in the side, but rather the unsupported groove of a siper with a projection towards the far end tied against the bow. The proportions of the guide in advance of the bow and projecting from the belly support this idea.

Here is an old picture of the grip guide in use. The angle of the guide to the arrow is wrong and the arrow is upside-down (i.e. the cock feather is up instead of down, you live and learn).

Ah, I seem to have confused the various guides. Thank you for the photograph.

I do recall trying this one too, as an alternative to making a siper glove, but I chickened out. I think I had had some technique defect that made it unsafe.

Aiai, very interesting! Sounds promising with the new texts.

I wonder if both the navak-i qabza and the siper perform better with a channel that is highest in the middle. In theory it would make it more forgiving with regards to the alignment towards the arrow. - although I remember seeing turkish sipers which had a high channel both at front and back.

Thanks for sharing the experiences with the navak. Why is it that one has to use the hawk grip with this device too? Does the arrow impact the groove with more force when used with a normal grip?

Looking at you questions individually, firstly I hope we are talking about the same thing regarding the height of the channel. I was referring to the height of the floor of the channel, not the sides. I know of no original sipers that had the front and rear floors of the channel higher than the middle. There may be some that have distorted with age, but not through design. The purpose is so that the arrow only contacts the channel at a single point to reduce friction. In an optimum case at full draw, the highest point of the floor of the channel is directly under the point of the arrow (actually for a flight arrow where the point meets the shaft). This is relatively easy to do in practice by adjusting the grasp of the bow minutely.

Secondly, the hawk's grip is useful with a grip guide because it brings the centre of pressure of the grasp on the belly closer to the guide's base. You also have the flattened out thumb and its metacarpal bone directly along the base of the guide giving you positive feedback about where the guide is pointing. If the guide is not exactly right you get an increased feeling of impact as the arrow leaves the bow.

The only part of this guide that is hard to control is the left to right angle. This is set when you tie on the guide and has to be precise, but it can only by found by trial and error.

Yes, I was also thinking of the floor of the channel. This is the siper I had in mind: http://kviljo.no/bue/siper/8.jpg I thought bone/ivory did not warp much, but I guess the space between the groove and tabla points in the direction of warping. In any case it seems very counter intuitive that it was made with this shape.

Seems like one really has to get a grip on the hawks grip technique. I was hoping that the navak i-qabza would allow for a normal grip, as I fear that my wrist will give me troubles when trying to climb the draw weight ladder... :)

I remember that siper from the auction. My opinion is that it warped, possibly because is was stored under something else that distorted its shape. If so, it must have been stored without the tabla in place. The other possibility is that the ivory warped over several years because of tensions from the original tusk. Since it appears that the eshik is carved in one piece with the groove, the possibility exists that the original block was straightened to use up a leftover piece of ivory.

The hawk's grip assures that you are using a bow you can control which is necessary when using a siper. If the bow is too strong, you will not be able to control the angle of your wrist.

Hello all,

I wanted to share some images of a siper I recently finished and give a little introduction about myself. My name is Tom?s. I've been a silent lurker of these forums and ATARN for many years now. I just finished my BA at The University of BC in Canada and I finally have some time to dedicate to archery again.

I followed some instructions and photos I found on a Turkish forum for achery. It is a solid block of waterbuffalo horn, birch plywood, upholstery leather and decorations are done in India Ink and bronze powdered pigment in hide glue. Decorations aren't too intricate, I figure there's still a few things to work out before I spend a lot of time making it look too pretty.

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I did want to ask Bede, some of the sipers in various museums and collections seem to have varying degrees of curvature. Some seem to be totally flat, others (like the ones mine is modeled after) have a more aggressive curve along the body. What effect does this have on shooting? Watching G?kmen's youtube videos, it looked like he had one very curved like this and I suppose it can heavily limit the realistic distance you can draw behind the bow without the arrow falling out.

I have never seen an original siper with that profile. The base of the trough is always flat. The curvature of the floor of the trough is usually less pronounced. In the translations of Mustafa Kani that I have seen in English and German, the greatest draw in the siper is to the midpoint of the trough. However, there are indications that the navak-i kabza was used by drawing the arrow almost to the end of the trough. Monus when he achieved his world records used this method.

I think that the purpose of the curvature was to restrict the contact of the arrow to the siper to a single point to reduce friction. Excessive curvature increases the risk of an accident. I think the Turks optimised safety with efficiency, maybe by trial and error.

Accidental double post. I meant also to say that Gokmen is a powerful archer. His control of heavy bows allows him to have good control of the angle of the siper which means that curvature is not as significant.

Hi Bede,
Thanks for the reply. I was following the design laid out here: http://www.osmanliyaylari.com/2012/03/o ... in_22.html. Based on this image:
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It has a longitudal curve profile, the trough definitely isn't totally flat. Anyways, I was looking at images of sipers in various museums, and the one in the background of this image caught my eye for the curvature of the trough:
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Maybe I have over stylized the curvature in mine, I won't know until I am able to try shooting it soon.

Several of the old thinner sipers curve like that but look how it has distorted the tabla. The plan you are working from conforms to most of the sipers I have seen, but not all have exactly those widths.

Perhaps the thin ivory troughs were heat treated to straighten them and over the centuries have returned to the original curve of the tusk. Horn ones certainly were straightened and curved by using heat. Examination of the grain in the ivory would probably show what was done. I have a bone trimmed Bukharan saddle where even bone has been curved by heat and pressure so the principle may apply to ivory.

In practice, I think your siper should work well. The curving of the underside of the trough will not affect its performance, just increase the amount of work involved. Most of the original sipers I have seen did not even have the underside polished.

That makes perfect sense.
I didn't know about the undersides of most sipers not being worked. I thought it was the proper thing to shape and polish the entire thing based on the degree of craftsmanship in fotos of well preserved ones.
Thanks for the response!

High quality ones were fully finished, but many people were archers so there were various levels of finish and quality of materials. Here is one I photographed in the Grayson Collection in 2006.