Horn question
Hi guys!
Is the horn strips from the under side of a set of buffalo horns the only part that?s anything to use on these horns?
I know that it?s the part to use for a hand held horn bow, but I?m going to try and build me a composite bow for a crossbow. I?m going to need a lot of horn, and it seems so wasteful not to use more parts of the horn.
Are there any other real differences between strips from the sides and the strip from the under side, other than the obvious difference of form?
Are the sides weaker in any way? Would the cast be any less with these parts?
Any help is useful, even if it's just guessing!
Is the horn strips from the under side of a set of buffalo horns the only part that?s anything to use on these horns?
I know that it?s the part to use for a hand held horn bow, but I?m going to try and build me a composite bow for a crossbow. I?m going to need a lot of horn, and it seems so wasteful not to use more parts of the horn.
Are there any other real differences between strips from the sides and the strip from the under side, other than the obvious difference of form?
Are the sides weaker in any way? Would the cast be any less with these parts?
Any help is useful, even if it's just guessing!
Hi Micke and welcome,
in bowery there is one basic rule: use the raw materials as they were grown.
If you use the sidewalls of a horn you have to cut the grown fibres of the horn, maybe the sidewalls are long and wide enough for to cut the hornstrip you need.
Horn is the natural grown material with a great reset force, only outperformed by the proteins you can find in the wings of insects.
So if you use the outer or inner curve of the horn you will have this reset force in your bow or crossbow, so the cast is greater.
The inner curve is usually not wide enough and to short for to be used in a bow?s limb.
Our ancestors made a lot of useful things of horn.
Michael
in bowery there is one basic rule: use the raw materials as they were grown.
If you use the sidewalls of a horn you have to cut the grown fibres of the horn, maybe the sidewalls are long and wide enough for to cut the hornstrip you need.
Horn is the natural grown material with a great reset force, only outperformed by the proteins you can find in the wings of insects.
So if you use the outer or inner curve of the horn you will have this reset force in your bow or crossbow, so the cast is greater.
The inner curve is usually not wide enough and to short for to be used in a bow?s limb.
Our ancestors made a lot of useful things of horn.
Michael
Hi Micke,
in Heins translation from Kani, the outer side of the horn is called "kapak" and is harder than the inner side called "karyn". Both can be used for bows, but must not be mixed in one bow. "karyn" was often used for sportbows, because it?s nearly undestroyable. The middle parts are too soft for bows and even grown in a radius.
Good luck
Peter
in Heins translation from Kani, the outer side of the horn is called "kapak" and is harder than the inner side called "karyn". Both can be used for bows, but must not be mixed in one bow. "karyn" was often used for sportbows, because it?s nearly undestroyable. The middle parts are too soft for bows and even grown in a radius.
Good luck
Peter
And then there are Persian bows which use as many as 9 horn strips to make up the width, or Hunza bows from Afghanistan which used 2 or 3 strips to make up the width or the Khotan bow from Xinjiang which used 5 strips to make up the width.
Egyptian bows used many novel methods of joining up a horn belly. -j-
Egyptian bows used many novel methods of joining up a horn belly. -j-
Jack,you mentioned belly hornstrips ,and I believe you have used them,
is there a special treatment for the sides of the strips?Other than grooving
them? As the belly convexes from the sinew shrinking,do the strips open up somewhat?Can that be prevented by wrapping with sinew?These early
bows seem to be rather wide.I'm very tempted to try one of these bows.Eppo
is there a special treatment for the sides of the strips?Other than grooving
them? As the belly convexes from the sinew shrinking,do the strips open up somewhat?Can that be prevented by wrapping with sinew?These early
bows seem to be rather wide.I'm very tempted to try one of these bows.Eppo
Eppo; Adam has stated here that in a composite of horn, wood and sinew that the exact species of the horn may not be of such importance. I take this to also mean that the orientation of the horn may also have some variation, as Peter, above, demonstrates in a analysis from Turkish bowbuilding. It has always occurred to me that the Persian method would take advantage of almost the entire horn by processing it to square, spaghetti strands and reconstituting them onto the belly. I have not done this but mean to. Many pieces from the sides of the horn would now become belly strips but oriented 90 degrees from the usual grain orientation. The cross-grain scarring of the bandsaw blade would seem a perfect texture for gluing.
I have never made a Turkish type bow but understand that grooving may be a late technique reserved for sport bows and their extreme requirements. It has been demonstrated that at least some Turkish war bows lacked grooving at the horn/wood junction.
Korean bows lack matching grooving, as do most all early composites of which I am aware.
Both of the bows which I made using multiple belly horn slats did separate somewhat in drying. I filled these with glue after a long time and the belly remained stable. However, long cracks on the belly are not necessarily associated with bow failure anyway.
Some early composites were wrapped entirely with sinew. The Khotan bow shows that technique well. Sinewing is at 45 degrees to the axis of the bow and a second layer may be placed over the first in the opposite direction. -j-
I have never made a Turkish type bow but understand that grooving may be a late technique reserved for sport bows and their extreme requirements. It has been demonstrated that at least some Turkish war bows lacked grooving at the horn/wood junction.
Korean bows lack matching grooving, as do most all early composites of which I am aware.
Both of the bows which I made using multiple belly horn slats did separate somewhat in drying. I filled these with glue after a long time and the belly remained stable. However, long cracks on the belly are not necessarily associated with bow failure anyway.
Some early composites were wrapped entirely with sinew. The Khotan bow shows that technique well. Sinewing is at 45 degrees to the axis of the bow and a second layer may be placed over the first in the opposite direction. -j-
In former times hornbowyers had to use the horn they could get, nowadays in our globalized world it is almost no problem to get waterbuffalo- horns whereever you live. Waterbuffalo is long, wide, solid grown, it is the best horn to work with for a hornbow, that?s what makes it outstanding.
My actual research- project is focused on the "multiplex- like" cross- sections of Egyptian, Scythian, Persian and other bows.
The grooving of the glue- line is important for a better glueing, but often it is overlooked that the profiling helps to keep the limbs in line.
Building the hornbelly with small strips of horn produces the same effects.
The more gluelines you make, the more stable the limbs will be.
It is very interesting to see that the Egyptians enforced these effects of the "multiplex cross- sections " by splitting the limbs additionally. (I know that Jack is of the opinion, that the Egyptian split limbs were nothing but grave goods, but anyway they shoot very well and fast).
With this technique it is possible to use horn from the sidewalls and against its growth.
Michael
My actual research- project is focused on the "multiplex- like" cross- sections of Egyptian, Scythian, Persian and other bows.
The grooving of the glue- line is important for a better glueing, but often it is overlooked that the profiling helps to keep the limbs in line.
Building the hornbelly with small strips of horn produces the same effects.
The more gluelines you make, the more stable the limbs will be.
It is very interesting to see that the Egyptians enforced these effects of the "multiplex cross- sections " by splitting the limbs additionally. (I know that Jack is of the opinion, that the Egyptian split limbs were nothing but grave goods, but anyway they shoot very well and fast).
With this technique it is possible to use horn from the sidewalls and against its growth.
Michael
I agree Redhawk. My little bow I made for my son has 4 pieces of bamboo laminated side by by side for the core ,and even though it is only 3/4" wide it it very stable .
http://198.170.108.27/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=848
http://198.170.108.27/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=848
I want to add the matched grooves should not be confused with grooving in general. Matched grooves mean the identical grooves were cut in both horn and the core for perfect matching of the surfaces, so the ridges fit the grooves exactly. I do not believe this type of grooving was ever done by old bowyers in any country. Some cross-sections may appear to show the perfect matching, but this is accidental and not intended. Only the 20th c. German bowyer Mebert seemed to use matching grooves.
However, the non-matching grooving has always been done on mating surfaces of core and horn. I recall the grooves were found in all-wood laminates of Scythian bows as well, so this technique must be very old.
The multiple strips of horn, as Jack pointed out, were used most likely due to lack of suitable wide horn. I found bows made this way a little more flexible then in the conventional construction.
Adam
However, the non-matching grooving has always been done on mating surfaces of core and horn. I recall the grooves were found in all-wood laminates of Scythian bows as well, so this technique must be very old.
The multiple strips of horn, as Jack pointed out, were used most likely due to lack of suitable wide horn. I found bows made this way a little more flexible then in the conventional construction.
Adam
Matched grooves has been used on all the composite bows for crossbows that I have seen cross sections of.
So that is something I have to figure out how to do.
Has anyone tried that with success?
So that is something I have to figure out how to do.
Has anyone tried that with success?
Accidentally grooves, I really don?t know what this should be.
God is not a player, as Einstein said.
Every cabinet maker knows that a glueline enforces.
I think we shouldn?t maintain our common opinion, that our ancestors have done everything with a " a try- and error- attitude", they knew what that they?ve done.
The "multiplex- cross- sections" in the limbs of the mentioned bows are not done cause of a lack of wide enough horns, they are so small, that you could cut them of even a small horn.
Actually I?m checking out the technique how the old bowyers could have done this "multiple cross- sections" and the tools they could have used.
It is interesting to see, that hightech- bowery is using very similiar cross- sections with modern materials
Michael
God is not a player, as Einstein said.
Every cabinet maker knows that a glueline enforces.
I think we shouldn?t maintain our common opinion, that our ancestors have done everything with a " a try- and error- attitude", they knew what that they?ve done.
The "multiplex- cross- sections" in the limbs of the mentioned bows are not done cause of a lack of wide enough horns, they are so small, that you could cut them of even a small horn.
Actually I?m checking out the technique how the old bowyers could have done this "multiple cross- sections" and the tools they could have used.
It is interesting to see, that hightech- bowery is using very similiar cross- sections with modern materials
Michael
Adam; Turkish bows were not match grooved? At all? -j-
No, never matched. All broken bows I have been able to examine did not have matched grooves, although of course the surfaces were always grooved.
For matching to work, the teeth in a scraper must be cut at 60 deg, equal sided. The old scrapers, according to drawings and actual specimens did not show such teeth. Turkish scrapers' teeth were narrow (<60deg) and widely spaced, so the no matching was possible. Nevertheless, there was no danger of breakage.
I err on the side of caution and make matching grooves for more stressed bows.
Adam
For matching to work, the teeth in a scraper must be cut at 60 deg, equal sided. The old scrapers, according to drawings and actual specimens did not show such teeth. Turkish scrapers' teeth were narrow (<60deg) and widely spaced, so the no matching was possible. Nevertheless, there was no danger of breakage.
I err on the side of caution and make matching grooves for more stressed bows.
Adam
For matching grooves a type of guide would need to be present on the tool which cuts the grooves, or some other mechanism to make grooves in a straight line. There is no such guide on a Korean's grooving tool and so the scoring is irregular and therefore not matching. Am not sure that the bamboo is scored at all. -j-