My new Magyar bows

Very nice work. I think they look awesome! You've inspired me to try a bow in this style.

Good job ! You are first Magyar bowmaker (What i know :lol: ) Who give his bows that nice recurve curvature . Thats what i liked ! :wink:

Bravo!!! I agree with Dusan I have not seen a Magyar bow with that type of unbraced profile. Just amazing-true craftsmanship.

absolutely beautiful work,I love the lines of the bows,keep at it.

Gents,

Thanks for all, I really appreciate your kind posts! They inspire me to continue my testing! :P

Great looking bows, and great good proof that cow-horn is enough.

These are V-spliced 5 part bows, right?

Can you give details like limb thickneses and length of parts?

Nice! 8)

The tip-crossing is very cool. Looking forward to a follow-up on these. It will be interesting to see how they keep their reflex compared to the other not as reflexed ones.

Congratulations! Superb job!

Thank you again!


Some other information, based on your request:

1. Magyar (HUN):
- bamboo core, grey bull horn, deer sinew (3 layers)
- construction: ?V?-spliced ears, core pieces: 6 (corrected - see pic at the end)
- grip angle: 150 , ear angle 40
- Weight: 502g (with bandage 530g)
- full length: 1370mm (measured in belly side), 1440mm (measured in back side)
- ntn: 1255mm
- ear length: 275mm
- limb thick (bending parts): 13mm
- limb width (bending parts): 33mm
- draw weight: approx. 60# (27")
- number of shots (so far) 50

2. Magyar (HUN):
- ash core, water buffalo horn, deer sinew (2 layers)
- construction: ?V?-spliced ears, core pieces: 6 (corrected - see pic at the end)
- grip angle: 150 , ear angle 40
- Weight: 496g (before 3th layer of sinew)
- full length: 1380mm (measured in belly side), 1430mm (measured in back side)
- ntn: 1220mm
- ear length: 285mm
- limb thick (bending parts): 12mm
- limb width (bending parts): 34mm
- draw weight: approx. 50# (27") I found it too light and weak and today I put 2x13g sinew additionally
- number of shots (so far) 50
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http://www.botondbow.com/3-famag-kiszab ... zeallitasa

Unfortunately, I?ll be not able to avoid the string follow due to a mistake ? I glued the horn strips to a straight core instead of a pre-bended one. Adam posted it previously and he is always right ? maybe next time I?ll change again! http://198.170.107.188/phpBB2/viewtopic ... &start=105

i like the first bow more

Having the curves close to the grip may be an advantage in long distance shooting. However, this style of bow should be very good at efficiently shooting medium and heavy weight arrows.

Please let us know how it performs with different weight arrows.

Hey, hey, botondbow, I know your website, so I was quite sure this guy is doing a great job, go on
Michael

Hey that is intresting construction method. Quite different than the t?rkish "thick slat method".

You used a thin slat of wood that was just glued around handle (heat gun?). Then extra pieces were glued in the ends. Then the core and extra pieces were V-spliced and ears were glued in.

The belly horn was glued with additional form in place(?)
http://www.botondbow.com/_/rsrc/1289393 ... GP8943.JPG

If thick core is used then the core works as its own form.
http://www.botondbow.com/_/rsrc/1289393 ... /clamp.png

Was the curvature on bending sections created by sinewing only, or did you use some other methods such as heating for adding reflex there ?

(Actually my 1st attempt was quite like that one, then I was sure that it is going to break at sal-handle joint and did not finish it and went to making more t?rkish like one. (the one posted here). )

You used horn side plates instead of the bone ones, since you had scrap horn after making the horn bellies?

?V?-spliced ears, core pieces: 7 (see pic at the end)

I see only 6 parts :wink:. Also this is different from "the typical 7 part method "(ottoman t?rkish bows), since the ears are not made from 2 parts, but the there is an extra piece that is used to make the V-splice thicker. The piece also reinforces the V-splice by making the grain more straight.

I think the bow number one took set, since most of the bending is done just after the handle.

That is the reason for the set, not the fact that you used a construction method very different from what is descibed in "Ottoman T?rkish archery".

The construction method worked, since the bow is in one piece, the set is caused by the tiller, not by the construction method.

"English" description of the construction of the bow:
http://bit.ly/dUCA29

Hi Peter,
Both bows are adorable and inspirative. I love this reflex in the grip and nice bone plate.
I plan to go to meeting of bowmakers in Hungary on this july.Perhaps see you there?
Best regards,
Zoran

I think pre bent limbs would help. I see a natural weak spot at the handle fades, all the initial reflex is from this point and the handle block is acting like a pivot, with straight limbs bending at the weakest spot.
I'm not a bowyer but it seems to me that a weak point in the core at this area would create problems with tillering, needing to remove horn further along the limb and reducing the strength?
I think pre bent limbs would remove/lessen this weak area.

Gents,

Thanks again all your comment and help!

Bede: The ?curves close to the grip may be an advantage in long distance shooting? was a very good point and having also possessed this idea (Adam also wrote similar in his book ? bow efficiency) I did not weak the rigid limp parts yet. I try to modify the curvature by sinew bandages (will see).

jkekoni: First, sorry for miscalculating the number of core pieces, it?s only six! You can see well there?re several methods to build a bow core and my ?style? is quite different. Regardless the so called impossible approaches (such as cow horn, thin slat of wood, number of core pieces, etc?) my bows fortunately are still working.
I know that my ?method? has several disadvantage, causing eg. string-follow. Having been only ?greenhorn? bowyer, I need to learn and develop a lot but I try to trap my own way. For me a re-curved curvature HUN bow is a big challenge!

Zoran: Thanks for your kind words! I hope we can see each other during next Primitive bowyers' camp, Hungary 2011. I?ll be there for sure!
See links below:
http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/topic/43204
http://ijkeszito.yuku.com/topic/187/jk- ... 011?page=1

Orda Khan: Concerning the pre-bent limbs, I was led to the same conclusion. Next time I?ll change (develop) some steps and eg. I?ll glue the horn strips differently.

I am very happy to see alternate construction methods. There has not been much alternate construction methods for "normal asian composite" *). You method looks like it saves work from "shaping the core" and does not require hot bending of wood. The disadvantage is that one needs (??) form for glueing horn.

*) "Normal asian composite" here means recurve sinew backed horn bow that has static ears,bending limbs and handle. (exculdes for example horn self bows, scythian style, egyptian style and no-core bows.)

again: I do not think your construction style is the (main) cause for string follow. The fact that most bending happen right after the handle is ( Ask for any more experienced bow maker about this and I am quite sure they agree. ) The setback handle will concentrate bending force at this region. If the limb is not stiffer (thicker) at this region, then it will bent the most.

(NOTE: such tiller may result faster bow, others may know more about this.)

It is intresting to see that someone is able to flatten the horn with hot air gun. Do you have any tricks for "not burning" it?

I tried to do this with water buffalo horn that I have made curved by taking material from inside. It did flatten, but I also burned it to unusable.

(The horn had beep dip on outter surface, I should have called to higland horn and asked a replacement, but did not...)

..fantastic work :)

jkekoni wrote:

I am very happy to see alternate construction methods. There has not been much alternate construction methods for "normal asian composite" *). You method looks like it saves work from "shaping the core" and does not require hot bending of wood. The disadvantage is that one needs (??) form for glueing horn.

*) "Normal asian composite" here means recurve sinew backed horn bow that has static ears,bending limbs and handle. (exculdes for example horn self bows, scythian style, egyptian style and no-core bows.)

again: I do not think your construction style is the (main) cause for string follow. The fact that most bending happen right after the handle is ( Ask for any more experienced bow maker about this and I am quite sure they agree. ) The setback handle will concentrate bending force at this region. If the limb is not stiffer (thicker) at this region, then it will bent the most.

(NOTE: such tiller may result faster bow, others may know more about this.)

It is intresting to see that someone is able to flatten the horn with hot air gun. Do you have any tricks for "not burning" it?

I tried to do this with water buffalo horn that I have made curved by taking material from inside. It did flatten, but I also burned it to unusable.

(The horn had beep dip on outter surface, I should have called to higland horn and asked a replacement, but did not...)

The reason why I chose this type of method is quite simple, this way I can form the limb core (thickness) in decimal millimeter precisely! It means that instead of measuring the combo thickness (core +horn) of construction, I try to form both two individual elements very precisely! Bow#1 is a kind of evidence, after seasoning I did not have to do anything with it (tiller) I just braced the bow and that's it!

There?re so many variations (wood, horn and sinew material vs. parameters) challenging the bowyers work; in this method I reduced them only to material (natural) variations.

Until I try the horn gluing to a pre-curved core, I do not know or even I cannot prove the predicted reason of existing string-follow (next time I?ll compare the two different methods)! Right now, I have no clue whether it was caused by a construction failure or by an extreme bending close to the grip?!

Concerning the air-gun flattering, I use it only for watusi and grey-cattle horn! The solution (based on my experience) is simple, it should be done with very watchfully and carefully! Once you cannot touch the horn it?s too hot (the limit approx. 70-80 C), consequently stop the heating.

For water buffalo horns I would not try air-gun, they?re I think a little bit different materials. Frankly, I did not heat (even flatten) the water-horn before gluing, I just formed them (kept the natural curve) and that?s it!

nice work , great looking bows

Dave

btw : nice to see your construction style - I have used the same method like you (thin core, set-on handle, but spliced the siyahs) Unfortunately one bow broke on stringing (didnt use a tepelik :roll: ) and the other doesnt have a centered string (didnt pay enough attention to a straight core :roll: ).

My experience concerning tillering is the same: provided same horn thickness, no tillering necessary. I pre-recurved the wood and rope-tied the pre-bent horn (dry electric oven 100?C), bound ears together to keep it in shape - this way you dont even need a wooden form. Looks then like korean bow shape (full circle). In case of slight asymmetry corrections can be made with heat after sinewing.

With the strongly reflexed grip I tried to replicate (Crimean Tatar) there was quite some string-follow, however the original museum bow looks exactly like this. So I guess with a strongly set-back grip you cannot get much less string follow than your bows actually have. I wonder how a korean hornbow looks after unstringing (without re-heating): somebody got experience ?

I?ve opened the seasoning ?C? shape of my next HUN bow. You can see the result of the first tillering phase:

Asymmetric Magyar (HUN):
- bamboo core, grey bull horn, deer sinew (3 layers)
- asymmetry: 13mm
- construction: ?V?-spliced ears, core pieces: 6
- grip angle: 180 , ear angle 40
- Weight: 460g
- full length: 1260mm (measured in belly side), 1305mm (measured in back side)
- ntn: 1180mm
- ear length: 230mm
- limb thickness (bending parts): 13mm
- limb width (bending parts): 34mm
- draw weight: approx. 50# (28")
- number of shots (so far) 50

First stage of (rough) tillering has only done. In order to balance the limbs I?ll be tuning the weaker limb with sinew laying instead of weakening the stronger (horn) one. The aim of minimum draw weight is 60#.

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These are the most beautiful bows I have ever seen. The transition of black to white on the cow horn is beautiful. Could I ask where you get your cow horn? I was wondering as my local tandys leather store has cow horn, but I don't know if they are processed is some way as to thin the horn a little or not... or at least they looked a little like they were last time I was there. Anyway, those bows are beautiful, and yes, the reason for the set in the one is because of tiller solely. As a part of the limb bends more than the other the materials cells are compressed and crushed more and more, bending all in one area can smash the material down in one spot so it can barely spring back. To keep all the area bending evenly keeps the cells of the material being compressed and crushed as little as possible so as to have as much spring back as possible. Gorgeous bows. Thank you for posting them!

toomanyknots wrote:

These are the most beautiful bows I have ever seen. The transition of black to white on the cow horn is beautiful. Could I ask where you get your cow horn? I was wondering as my local tandys leather store has cow horn, but I don't know if they are processed is some way as to thin the horn a little or not... or at least they looked a little like they were last time I was there. Anyway, those bows are beautiful, and yes, the reason for the set in the one is because of tiller solely. As a part of the limb bends more than the other the materials cells are compressed and crushed more and more, bending all in one area can smash the material down in one spot so it can barely spring back. To keep all the area bending evenly keeps the cells of the material being compressed and crushed as little as possible so as to have as much spring back as possible. Gorgeous bows. Thank you for posting them!

Thanks for your kind opinion and sorry for replying a bit late!

I absolutely agree that the horn color (transition also) of HUN grey cattle is one of the most beautiful horn. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Grey_cattleThey are quite long and nice horns (much bigger than ?normal? cow horns, similar to watusi cattle.

Grey cattle are native domestic animals in my country so I?ve purchased the horns here in Hungary. You should also be informed that only a minority of horns (less than 10%) are adequate for bow making. Mainly max. 5 year old, well fed (with necessary vitamins) horns are not splitting into layers. Bad news also that the grey-horn prices are higher than well known (bowyer used) water buffalos? price! For example, a highlandhorn price (including shipping charge) is approx. 80% of a grey-horn (terrible).

Concerning the string-follow (noted during tillering phase) has already been reduced a bit due to additional sinew layers and a final sinew bandage I put.
Pictures and characteristics of final bows will be shown soon.

"Pictures and characteristics of final bows will be shown soon."

Cannot wait!

Bad and good news.
Unfortunately, the reinforcement (with additional sinew layers) of two previously working bows has been failed.
The first bow had possible limb damage; a kind of broken line is noted in the horn.
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Meanwhile the other bow?s limbs have irreversible twisted. Possibly, horns delaminated; however I cannot see any de-lamination (sinew might covers it).
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Both two bows will be dismantled soon and hopefully I can identify the reasons.

Conclusions:
1. I should have not reinforced the previously working bows, I wanted too much,
2. This bow shape (grip angle 150?) does not let as many sinew reinforcement as other ?normal? design,

In order to get some good input as well, the reinforcement (+12g sinew) of my ?easy bow? (grip angle 180?) was a success. The previously approx. 50# bow has become 63#.
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I finalized it and it works quite well. More pics. are here:https://picasaweb.google.com/1050345962 ... vidMagyar#

What a wonderful finish! It's refreshing to see a non Turkish bow for a change. This one is a beauty.

Excellent.
By the way, they look stunningly similar to depictions of Seljuk bows!
congrats

Gokmen

thanks for sharing your experiences

Thanks for your posts!

I've removed the horn strips from two damaged bows very carefully by heat-gun. Surprisingly, only horns were damaged and one side partially delaminated. The cores and also the sinew-line look good. I bent sinewy cores several times and no damage has been identified at all!

Frankly, I do not want to waste the remnants and now I?m wondering, whether I dare to glue another horn strips to the cores? I know there can be invisible cracks (or other slight damages) inside the bows but it?s only a theory. Do you have any experience?

Concerning the 150? grip angle, I?ve not given up it at all! One bow is under seasoning now and hopefully I?m gonne be more lucky than before (within a month I?ll see).

Exceeding 100lbs is my other aim but I want to reach it in a different (more safety) bow shape (grip angle approx. 170-180?). 8)

Most of the bend was done on small area after the grip. This is one of the main reasons why the horn failed. This I do claim to know.

I think you should concentrate on fixing this tiller, if you are going to fix the bow.
If this is good idea or not, I do not claim to know, but I would try that.

Would water buffalo horn last this with current tiller, I also do not claim to know, but I would assume water buffalo takes more compression that cows of any kind.

My short one, Thank you for sharing your experiences with us.
Greets

Gokmen wrote:

Excellent.
By the way, they look stunningly similar to depictions of Seljuk bows!
congrats

Gokmen

You're right! I believe that eastern bows are (close or far) relatives!

jkekoni wrote:

Most of the bend was done on small area after the grip. This is one of the main reasons why the horn failed. This I do claim to know.

I think you should concentrate on fixing this tiller, if you are going to fix the bow.
If this is good idea or not, I do not claim to know, but I would try that.

Would water buffalo horn last this with current tiller, I also do not claim to know, but I would assume water buffalo takes more compression that cows of any kind.

Finaly, I've come to the same conclusion! Additionally, cow horn might not sufficient for bows above 100lbs. After the sinew reinforcements the two failed bows were quite close to 100lbs.

You're right, water buffalo horn was not damaged as seriously as the cow one - I've gained again a lot exprience!

Botond; Two ideas about the failed bow. Is this one with a riser applied to a continuous core? I have had problems when the riser was not tapered finely at the edges.

Point two; I believe that if cattle horn is of sufficient quality, it will work just fine. Is yours thick enough? with the tip end at the grip?

Hello Botondbow
In my opinion,you should be able to replace the hornstrip as long as the new strip is closely the matched to the original.
I have done it and it worked fine

Botondbow wrote:

I?ve opened the seasoning ?C? shape of my next HUN bow. You can see the result of the first tillering phase:

Asymmetric Magyar (HUN):
- bamboo core, grey bull horn, deer sinew (3 layers)
- asymmetry: 13mm
- construction: ?V?-spliced ears, core pieces: 6
- grip angle: 180 , ear angle 40
- Weight: 460g
- full length: 1260mm (measured in belly side), 1305mm (measured in back side)
- ntn: 1180mm
- ear length: 230mm
- limb thickness (bending parts): 13mm
- limb width (bending parts): 34mm
- draw weight: approx. 50# (28")
- number of shots (so far) 50

First stage of (rough) tillering has only done. In order to balance the limbs I?ll be tuning the weaker limb with sinew laying instead of weakening the stronger (horn) one. The aim of minimum draw weight is 60#.

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Hi guys.
What do you think, how close is this one to a Hun bow.
Botond, sorry to say, but for me your bow is closer to a Turkish than a Hun bow.
Sorry for the assymetry, I held the bow wrong...just a beginner.

Really sorry to hear about the failures. I also think your horn was damaged by asking for too much bend in a relatively small area. Your 'fracture line' must be a chrysal?
How thick were your horns?
I have started on a 'copy' of your bows...it will be interesting to see how it turns out.

Sad to hear about the failures. But this is the best reason to start a new batch of bows ;-)) (I know...)

In my understanding these bows, at least the last one don?t look very "hunnic", as depictions of hunnic bows show asymmetry (the lower limb is shorter, the lower siyah, too, and there is am pronounced setback in the handle area. I think Dusan posted some beautiful images rom Sassanid bowls where hunnic type bows are depicted in full draw. Now, as you were talking of your Magyar bows in the beginning, I don?t know in which way Magyar bows differ from the hunnic model. I guess they could also be of symmetric shape and have less setback.

I?m working on a hunnic type bow, too, mine will be asymmetric and hopefully I left enough horn near the handle to save the setback during tillering. Currently there are two layers of sinew on it and it?s drying some more.

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I too did exchange damaged and delaminated horn strips and it was no problem.

JJ

First of all, sorry for replying your posts too late I was far from internet.

jack farrell:Quote: ?Botond; Two ideas about the failed bow. Is this one with a riser applied to a continuous core? I have had problems when the riser was not tapered finely at the edges.
Point two; I believe that if cattle horn is of sufficient quality, it will work just fine. Is yours thick enough? with the tip end at the grip??

Jack, terrible sorry for my poor English but I couldn?t catch your point #one, would you explain it! Concerning the second point, the horn thickness (3,5 and 4mm) as well as the quality might have not been in line with the reinforced bows? draw-weights (approx. 100 lbs). I also guess that only a very few minority of cow horns are good for heavy bows (<90lbs).

Eppo Wolgen:Quote:? In my opinion,you should be able to replace the hornstrip as long as the new strip is closely the matched to the original. I have done it and it worked fine.?

Thanks for your advice, good to hear that your horn replacement works well. I?ll replace the strips for sure ?cause I wanna give an other chance for the remnants.

Ponty:Quote:? What do you think, how close is this one to a Hun bow.
Botond, sorry to say, but for me your bow is closer to a Turkish than a Hun bow.
Sorry for the assymetry, I held the bow wrong...just a beginner.?

First of all congratulation for your reconstruction! Regardless the size of your bow (it looks a bit big comparing your height ? close to Manchu) it nice and quite authentic!
I?m really interested in details (size, thickness, lbs, etc?) and some other pictures (un-braced and braced).
Concerning your point that my previous bow is rather ?Turkish? than Magyar, You?re partially right; however, this grip feature is also proved (180?).
I also share your opinion that other grip construction (<180?) is more authentic, honestly I think my latest bow shape (?C?) is my ?ideal? Magyar bow.

Mikekeswick:Quote:? Really sorry to hear about the failures. I also think your horn was damaged by asking for too much bend in a relatively small area. Your 'fracture line' must be a chrysal? How thick were your horns? I have started on a 'copy' of your bows...it will be interesting to see how it turns out."

You?re right, I expected too much for those horns! One of the strips has a kind of ?crystal? line; meanwhile, the other has a ?white? section in week part.
The horn thickness was 3,5 and 4mm.
I wish your reconstruction will successfully work, please keep us updated!

JJ:Quote:? Sad to hear about the failures. But this is the best reason to start a new batch of bows ) (I know...) In my understanding these bows, at least the last one don?t look very "hunnic", as depictions of hunnic bows show asymmetry (the lower limb is shorter, the lower siyah, too, and there is am pronounced setback in the handle area. I think Dusan posted some beautiful images rom Sassanid bowls where hunnic type bows are depicted in full draw. Now, as you were talking of your Magyar bows in the beginning, I don?t know in which way Magyar bows differ from the hunnic model. I guess they could also be of symmetric shape and have less setback.?
"I?m working on a hunnic type bow, too, mine will be asymmetric and hopefully I left enough horn near the handle to save the setback during tillering. Currently there are two layers of sinew on it and it?s drying some more.
I too did exchange damaged and delaminated horn strips and it was no problem.?

I wish you also a good luck for this kind of bow reconstruction (the bow is very nice in your pic) ? however, it?s sometimes an uphill struggle!
That may have been my fault that I could not clearly define my bows. You?re right Hunnic type bows were asymmetric (lower limb and ear was shorter than upper ones)!
My (reconstruction) study is about Magyar (HUNgarian) type bows. These might have asymmetry construction but this asymmetry is not as visible (dramatic) as in Hunnic bows. Symmetric Magyar bow construction is quite common (theoretically).
Good to hear again that you could successfully replace horn strips it inspires me!


Finally, I can happily report to you that my next Magyar bow reconstruction is working and its quite stable.

The failed bows had 100% wrong horn-strips! This new bow has a high quality and sufficiently thick horn. I will not (do not dare) change or reinforce any part of it, this is the final stage of the bow (varnished and polished).

Magyar (HUN):
- ash core, water buffalo horn, deer sinew (3 layers)
- construction: ?V?-spliced ears, core pieces: 6
- grip angle: 150 , ear angle 45
- Weight: 534g
- full length: 1390mm (measured in belly side), 1440mm (measured in back side)
- ntn: 1230mm
- ear length: 257mm
- limb thick (bending parts): 13mm
- limb width (bending parts): 35mm
- draw weight: approx. 60# (28")
- number of shots (so far) 300 (4 days)

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More pics here: https://picasaweb.google.com/1050345962 ... /60MagyarC#

During the tillering I did not want to risk the bow. That?s why I did not really care about the draw weight (less than I aimed) I focused on only the balanced bendings of limbs.

Fortunately, no string follow has been noted, it keeps the same resting shape.

Frankly, I absolutely satisfied with this bow I love shooting with it!

I appreciate also all your comments, critiques and advices!

Peter

A very beautiful work of art.

Botondbow wrote:

First of all, sorry for replying your posts too late I was far from internet.

jack farrell:Quote: ?Botond; Two ideas about the failed bow. Is this one with a riser applied to a continuous core? I have had problems when the riser was not tapered finely at the edges.
Point two; I believe that if cattle horn is of sufficient quality, it will work just fine. Is yours thick enough? with the tip end at the grip??

Jack, terrible sorry for my poor English but I couldn?t catch your point #one, would you explain it! Concerning the second point, the horn thickness (3,5 and 4mm) as well as the quality might have not been in line with the reinforced bows? draw-weights (approx. 100 lbs). I also guess that only a very few minority of cow horns are good for heavy bows (<90lbs).

Eppo Wolgen:Quote:? In my opinion,you should be able to replace the hornstrip as long as the new strip is closely the matched to the original. I have done it and it worked fine.?

Thanks for your advice, good to hear that your horn replacement works well. I?ll replace the strips for sure ?cause I wanna give an other chance for the remnants.

Ponty:Quote:? What do you think, how close is this one to a Hun bow.
Botond, sorry to say, but for me your bow is closer to a Turkish than a Hun bow.
Sorry for the assymetry, I held the bow wrong...just a beginner.?

First of all congratulation for your reconstruction! Regardless the size of your bow (it looks a bit big comparing your height ? close to Manchu) it nice and quite authentic!
I?m really interested in details (size, thickness, lbs, etc?) and some other pictures (un-braced and braced).
Concerning your point that my previous bow is rather ?Turkish? than Magyar, You?re partially right; however, this grip feature is also proved (180?).
I also share your opinion that other grip construction (<180?) is more authentic, honestly I think my latest bow shape (?C?) is my ?ideal? Magyar bow.

Mikekeswick:Quote:? Really sorry to hear about the failures. I also think your horn was damaged by asking for too much bend in a relatively small area. Your 'fracture line' must be a chrysal? How thick were your horns? I have started on a 'copy' of your bows...it will be interesting to see how it turns out."

You?re right, I expected too much for those horns! One of the strips has a kind of ?crystal? line; meanwhile, the other has a ?white? section in week part.
The horn thickness was 3,5 and 4mm.
I wish your reconstruction will successfully work, please keep us updated!

JJ:Quote:? Sad to hear about the failures. But this is the best reason to start a new batch of bows ) (I know...) In my understanding these bows, at least the last one don?t look very "hunnic", as depictions of hunnic bows show asymmetry (the lower limb is shorter, the lower siyah, too, and there is am pronounced setback in the handle area. I think Dusan posted some beautiful images rom Sassanid bowls where hunnic type bows are depicted in full draw. Now, as you were talking of your Magyar bows in the beginning, I don?t know in which way Magyar bows differ from the hunnic model. I guess they could also be of symmetric shape and have less setback.?
"I?m working on a hunnic type bow, too, mine will be asymmetric and hopefully I left enough horn near the handle to save the setback during tillering. Currently there are two layers of sinew on it and it?s drying some more.
I too did exchange damaged and delaminated horn strips and it was no problem.?

I wish you also a good luck for this kind of bow reconstruction (the bow is very nice in your pic) ? however, it?s sometimes an uphill struggle!
That may have been my fault that I could not clearly define my bows. You?re right Hunnic type bows were asymmetric (lower limb and ear was shorter than upper ones)!
My (reconstruction) study is about Magyar (HUNgarian) type bows. These might have asymmetry construction but this asymmetry is not as visible (dramatic) as in Hunnic bows. Symmetric Magyar bow construction is quite common (theoretically).
Good to hear again that you could successfully replace horn strips it inspires me!


Finally, I can happily report to you that my next Magyar bow reconstruction is working and its quite stable.

The failed bows had 100% wrong horn-strips! This new bow has a high quality and sufficiently thick horn. I will not (do not dare) change or reinforce any part of it, this is the final stage of the bow (varnished and polished).

Magyar (HUN):
- ash core, water buffalo horn, deer sinew (3 layers)
- construction: ?V?-spliced ears, core pieces: 6
- grip angle: 150 , ear angle 45
- Weight: 534g
- full length: 1390mm (measured in belly side), 1440mm (measured in back side)
- ntn: 1230mm
- ear length: 257mm
- limb thick (bending parts): 13mm
- limb width (bending parts): 35mm
- draw weight: approx. 60# (28")
- number of shots (so far) 300 (4 days)

[external image]
[external image]
[external image]
[external image]

More pics here: https://picasaweb.google.com/1050345962 ... /60MagyarC#

During the tillering I did not want to risk the bow. That?s why I did not really care about the draw weight (less than I aimed) I focused on only the balanced bendings of limbs.

Fortunately, no string follow has been noted, it keeps the same resting shape.

Frankly, I absolutely satisfied with this bow I love shooting with it!

I appreciate also all your comments, critiques and advices!

Peter

I agree with you when you state that "it is my ?ideal? Magyar bow."
I think the good thing is that we all trying different ways of doing things,
and it should satisfy me before anybody else.
I'll post soon the data and pictures you asked for.
Good work, and good luck again.

Awesome!!

Beyond beautiful.

Botondbow wrote:

First of all, sorry for replying your posts too late I was far from internet.

jack farrell:Quote: ?Botond; Two ideas about the failed bow. Is this one with a riser applied to a continuous core? I have had problems when the riser was not tapered finely at the edges.
Point two; I believe that if cattle horn is of sufficient quality, it will work just fine. Is yours thick enough? with the tip end at the grip??

Jack, terrible sorry for my poor English but I couldn?t catch your point #one, would you explain it! Concerning the second point, the horn thickness (3,5 and 4mm) as well as the quality might have not been in line with the reinforced bows? draw-weights (approx. 100 lbs). I also guess that only a very few minority of cow horns are good for heavy bows (<90lbs).

Eppo Wolgen:Quote:? In my opinion,you should be able to replace the hornstrip as long as the new strip is closely the matched to the original. I have done it and it worked fine.?

Thanks for your advice, good to hear that your horn replacement works well. I?ll replace the strips for sure ?cause I wanna give an other chance for the remnants.

Ponty:Quote:? What do you think, how close is this one to a Hun bow.
Botond, sorry to say, but for me your bow is closer to a Turkish than a Hun bow.
Sorry for the assymetry, I held the bow wrong...just a beginner.?

First of all congratulation for your reconstruction! Regardless the size of your bow (it looks a bit big comparing your height ? close to Manchu) it nice and quite authentic!
I?m really interested in details (size, thickness, lbs, etc?) and some other pictures (un-braced and braced).
Concerning your point that my previous bow is rather ?Turkish? than Magyar, You?re partially right; however, this grip feature is also proved (180?).
I also share your opinion that other grip construction (<180?) is more authentic, honestly I think my latest bow shape (?C?) is my ?ideal? Magyar bow.

Mikekeswick:Quote:? Really sorry to hear about the failures. I also think your horn was damaged by asking for too much bend in a relatively small area. Your 'fracture line' must be a chrysal? How thick were your horns? I have started on a 'copy' of your bows...it will be interesting to see how it turns out."

You?re right, I expected too much for those horns! One of the strips has a kind of ?crystal? line; meanwhile, the other has a ?white? section in week part.
The horn thickness was 3,5 and 4mm.
I wish your reconstruction will successfully work, please keep us updated!

JJ:Quote:? Sad to hear about the failures. But this is the best reason to start a new batch of bows ) (I know...) In my understanding these bows, at least the last one don?t look very "hunnic", as depictions of hunnic bows show asymmetry (the lower limb is shorter, the lower siyah, too, and there is am pronounced setback in the handle area. I think Dusan posted some beautiful images rom Sassanid bowls where hunnic type bows are depicted in full draw. Now, as you were talking of your Magyar bows in the beginning, I don?t know in which way Magyar bows differ from the hunnic model. I guess they could also be of symmetric shape and have less setback.?
"I?m working on a hunnic type bow, too, mine will be asymmetric and hopefully I left enough horn near the handle to save the setback during tillering. Currently there are two layers of sinew on it and it?s drying some more.
I too did exchange damaged and delaminated horn strips and it was no problem.?

I wish you also a good luck for this kind of bow reconstruction (the bow is very nice in your pic) ? however, it?s sometimes an uphill struggle!
That may have been my fault that I could not clearly define my bows. You?re right Hunnic type bows were asymmetric (lower limb and ear was shorter than upper ones)!
My (reconstruction) study is about Magyar (HUNgarian) type bows. These might have asymmetry construction but this asymmetry is not as visible (dramatic) as in Hunnic bows. Symmetric Magyar bow construction is quite common (theoretically).
Good to hear again that you could successfully replace horn strips it inspires me!


Finally, I can happily report to you that my next Magyar bow reconstruction is working and its quite stable.

The failed bows had 100% wrong horn-strips! This new bow has a high quality and sufficiently thick horn. I will not (do not dare) change or reinforce any part of it, this is the final stage of the bow (varnished and polished).

Magyar (HUN):
- ash core, water buffalo horn, deer sinew (3 layers)
- construction: ?V?-spliced ears, core pieces: 6
- grip angle: 150 , ear angle 45
- Weight: 534g
- full length: 1390mm (measured in belly side), 1440mm (measured in back side)
- ntn: 1230mm
- ear length: 257mm
- limb thick (bending parts): 13mm
- limb width (bending parts): 35mm
- draw weight: approx. 60# (28")
- number of shots (so far) 300 (4 days)

[external image]
[external image]
[external image]
[external image]

More pics here: https://picasaweb.google.com/1050345962 ... /60MagyarC#

During the tillering I did not want to risk the bow. That?s why I did not really care about the draw weight (less than I aimed) I focused on only the balanced bendings of limbs.

Fortunately, no string follow has been noted, it keeps the same resting shape.

Frankly, I absolutely satisfied with this bow I love shooting with it!

I appreciate also all your comments, critiques and advices!

Peter

Hi Peter.
Here are some more pictures and details of this Manchu-like bow.
You're right that is is a long one , but I did not wanted to cut the nice long horns I got, instead I made a bow how the horn wanted it.
Anyway, my bow is
56" ntn braced and 65" measured along the belly, ttt.
It is 1,75" wide! and 0.5" thick.
The limbs are approximately 20" long (bending part), and the siyah is 9" long 1" wide and triangular shape.
The weight is 570gramms.
The grip and the siyah's are made out of ash, while the bending limbs are made out of red elm (I know, all of you'll say heresy, but elm is one of the most undervalued bow wood, it is very flexible, and has a very long grains).
Anyway because of the long limbs and siyah's it pulls only 42# at 28".
For most people this might be low, but the siyah is 45% the length of the bending limbs, so the "real weight" would be around 45% more, maybe around 60#, and is very smooth to draw, no hand shocks at all.
Some pictures..

:shock: awesome (art)work, Peter

Ponty; What is the purpose of copying and reposting another's post complete with illustrations? This is a bit confusing.

Am I missing something? You could just link to the original post or address a reply to Botondbow. Yes?

Ponty wrote:

Hi Peter.
Here are some more pictures and details of this Manchu-like bow.
You're right that is is a long one , but I did not wanted to cut the nice long horns I got, instead I made a bow how the horn wanted it.
Anyway, my bow is
56" ntn braced and 65" measured along the belly, ttt.
It is 1,75" wide! and 0.5" thick.
The limbs are approximately 20" long (bending part), and the siyah is 9" long 1" wide and triangular shape.
The weight is 570gramms.
The grip and the siyah's are made out of ash, while the bending limbs are made out of red elm (I know, all of you'll say heresy, but elm is one of the most undervalued bow wood, it is very flexible, and has a very long grains).
Anyway because of the long limbs and siyah's it pulls only 42# at 28".
For most people this might be low, but the siyah is 45% the length of the bending limbs, so the "real weight" would be around 45% more, maybe around 60#, and is very smooth to draw, no hand shocks at all.
Some pictures..

Hello Ponty,

Sorry again the late reply! Thanks for sharing your bow's details and pics!
First of all congratulation for your bow!
You?ve aimed the most important goal; your bow gives you entire satisfaction (very smooth to draw, no hand shocks at all)!
Each bow can be criticized (mine, yours or others) however, in my opinion there?s no perfect (natural composite) bow at all!
What we (outsiders) expect a perfect bow, sometimes is not. Only the bowyer knows (sometimes doesn?t) why a bow is not ?perfect?.

We have been arguing from time immemorial about ?authentic? bow sizes, shapes, draw weights, and portions but until a clear and detailed standard doesn?t exist for a specific bow (eg. Magyar bow) we should trap our individual ways!

For several bow types an objective standard cannot be made at all due to lack of information!

In my opinion once someone wants to build a composite the right proportion of bow parts are significant.
Your bow looks (for me) quite OK and I understand all your points you made (length of horn, red elm core, etc?)!

Congratulation again and go on building other bows!

Peter

Very nice bow. I shuddered slightly when I read about you using an elm core. My first attempt at a Turkish bow had an elm core because I was impatient and could not find any maple at all and was reluctant to try kiln dried maple. My core snapped clean in half before I even got the bow to brace height - when it was being bent on the teplics. When I removed the sinew and horn the core looked like it had been sawn in half! The break was a perfectly straight line directly across the limb...I also regard elm as one of the absolute best self bow woods there is however I think it has very different properties between the earlywoood and latewood. The earlywood is chock full of pores and is actually pretty weak compared to the latewood. This difference is properties makes it prone to failing in shear inside a hornbow. I have since used cherry sucessfully but it is diffuse porous like maple with a slightly lower S.G.

My new teenage Magyar (nickname: Amber) has been finished this week.

- bamboo core, white horn, deer sinew (3 layers)
- construction: ?V?-spliced ears, core pieces: 6
- grip angle: 150 , ear angle 45
- Weight: 502g
- full length: 1380mm (measured in belly side), 1430mm (measured in back side)
- ntn: 1220mm
- ear length: 285mm
- limb thick (bending parts): 13mm
- limb width (bending parts): 32mm
- draw weight: 47# (@28")

Shape after seasoning:

[external image]

Tillering shape:

[external image]

Final bow:
[external image]

[external image]

[external image]

More pics here: https://picasaweb.google.com/1050345962 ... Borostyan#

It?s a Light and an evenly draw-able bow for a 15 year-old boy. The bow?s specialty is that the white horn is very transparent providing an entire visibility of the bow construction.

All comments are welcome!

Peter

:shock: killer
congratulations

more bows, more experiences, more reflex - better bows- i hope 8)

Wow! Love 'em!

Thanks a lot, I really appreciate your incitements! :!:

i like the manchu bow alot, great job!

Zarasp wrote:

i like the manchu bow alot, great job!

Zarasp, thanks for your comment! However, my bow is not a Manchu one!

I can count the differences between the two designs (size, ear angles, no string touch, etc...) but there're several topics for this issues.

Fortunately there's no clear borderline between different type bows (concerning ages and eras) and additionally some bows more or less relatives in the Eastern Steppe!

Botond; Purdy, purdy, purdy! (pretty)